Ship role, comparisons of vessels and wind strength

[jw62]

welcome

[Ratline]

Love the general idea, but wind should not be too predictable. Already dislike the clockwork nature of wind direction and would love to see a more complex system of wind direction and strength.

[Thonys]

Diversity is good 

the more the better

but: the pace of speed should not hold the game back

Edited April 30, 2016 by Thonys

[Catastrophy]

SoLs faster than frigates? I find that hard to believe, but I'm no sailing expert.

As are likely many other players.

The game mechanics need to be clearly communicated, so players can make a meaningful choice and have believable feedback in-game.

 

Apart from that dynamic weather and other mechanics working to make small ships more viable are a good thing. More variety should beat single choice meta with I-win-ships and allows for more teamwork.

[Ratline]

SoLs faster than frigates? I find that hard to believe, but I'm no sailing expert.

As are likely many other players.

The game mechanics need to be clearly communicated, so players can make a meaningful choice and have believable feedback in-game.

 

Apart from that dynamic weather and other mechanics working to make small ships more viable are a good thing. More variety should beat single choice meta with I-win-ships and allows for more teamwork.

 

In strong winds and heavy seas a larger ship, with stronger masts and yards and greater stability, would be faster than a frigate, yes.

[jw62]

OK, SOL's are faster than frigates in higher wind and sea states. However, they still  maneuver like logs and won't go upwind. Nor is accurate gunnery or boardings possable in those elevated wind and sea states. Lower ports can't be opened, gunpowder in loose bags gets wet, I won't fo on about how dangerous it is to move about deck with two hands free, let alone a cannonball.

However, the rigging must be great quality or parts fly off. Sometimes the parts fly around on the ends of those long stringy things. I can tell you that ain't fun.

This is all great, but don't let it interfere with the fun part of the game.

And again, while its one thing to drift a hundred yards in an hour, and I've gone slower than that for much too much longer, you will tear your hair out and go play care bears the second time you spend two hours not being able to get in range of anything.

 

I think the game is pretty good. I want to go out and blow things up, and build stuff to get blown up. Well, stuff like that. There are detailed sims out there that let you play, I have a number of highly detailed square rigged ships in Vehicle simulator. I got my own Tugboat almost working fully there (I do use it as a visualization tool (and its still a game, like work)). I want a few tweaks and added content, not a game re-write. (and I also want to fix the rigging and the slinging of the yards, but I was a foretopman on the real deal for three years, so there I'm a touch picky).

 

I think there's a lot of potential, I only joined maybe less than a month ago, I like the crafting system, I like the visuals, land in the battles is Great. You guys and gals did notice the compass swaps 180 from the OW to the Instance, right? Little things like that need fixing, but the basic mechanics "plays" pretty good.

[Mr. Starbuck]

technically, a tall ship of the line can have an edge in speed compared to smaller vessels with lower masts in situations where only a light breeze is blowing or ships are nearly becalmed.

 

E.g. a 3rd rates masts reach higher, their royals are able to catch the slightest wind movement in heights a smaller square rigger can't reach due to lower mast height.

 

I suppose this should be considered as well when balancing out ship speeds.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Mr. Starbuck

[Banana_Joe]

Why not just use real time weather from the carribian? Maybe even simplified into three or four wind strenght.

Flight simulators can do that. No need for a windshift mechanic then.

Edited April 30, 2016 by Banana_Joe

[maturin]

Random factors deciding for the players which ship is he supposed to sail are not cool.

Being forced to choose between Renommee or Trinc for OW PvP is far, far worse.

 

 

technically, a tall ship of the line can have an edge in speed compared to smaller vessels with lower masts in situations where only a light breeze is blowing or ships are nearly becalmed.

 

E.g. a 3rd rates masts reach higher, their royals are able to catch the slightest wind movement in heights a smaller square rigger can't reach due to lower mast height.

Admittedly, yes.

 

The 'light wind=light ships faster' idea is sort of a dubious oversimplification. But I think it is a desirable one, to give smaller vessels a purpose in the game.

[jw62]

Back to wind and sail.

Sure, Big ships, tall sails. vs Big ships heavy displacement and underwater surface area, magnified by barnacles.

 

In light winds small ships rule, , usually enough to run out of sight before they get creamed.

 

Ghosting favors the low prismatic easily driven hull. Those tend to have low speed formula constants but it doesn't take much wind to get them going. They also don't carry much.

 

Third rates are all about packing it into a wooden hull. Wood's limitations are mostly for length. The bigger ship's have a high prismatic coefficient, they have a higher constant, so they can go faster per waterline length than skinnier slimmer rigs. The kicker is that it takes a lot of wind to get there. This what we mean when we talk of a "powerful" hull. I have an olin stephens, Finnesterre's sister to be precise. She is the penultimate of 1950's pre technical cheat hulls. Keel/Centerboard, and I've had her just on the edge of planing coming off rollers downwind at 10.5kts. Because Olin had learned to "cut away" most of the underbody, he turned what would normally be a very low prismatic boat into a high, and so a very fast racer was born.

 

Let me explain the Prismatic Coefficient; Look at your hull end on and trace the biggest section, irregardless of stations or frames. Now take that shape and construct a trough of exactly that shape that is the length of the waterline. The prismatic coefficient is exactly the percentage of that trough that the boat fills. So a big coefficient means a big fat hull, and a small means a skinny little thing like a lynx.

Now, yes, so a big steel barge theoretically can go 60kts, however you would need about 80,000HP to get it over 50kts (yeah, I've done the math on stupid stuff like that before). so let's not get all exited by how your Santi should out run the lynx.

 

And lets also remember that the rigging of the time could not take the stress. Modern wire rigging is more than merely light years beyond that old hemp, and look at how complicated some of the modern racing rigs can get. So while there is more than enough horsepower in a gale of wind to push a sailboat past 60kts (Stiletto I know did it once, calced by the coast guard by the scrapes left on race rock) the rigging back then and the fabric couldn't hold it. Even Tabor Boy, a baltic pilot schooner of 250 tons with iron hull and steel masts with stainless wire rigging (fir booms and yards), I spent almost every free hour not handing sails to mending sails and rigging. Full time job. Parts always falling off.

 

We had her up to 16.5kts once in a full gale (parts coming loose all over the place)

 

Take a look at the japanese sail assisted tankers from the early 70's. Somewhere in the literature you will find a chart of the horsepower potential of the rigid sails they were using and find that without reefing they could generate over 40,000hp each in 30-40kts of wind. But they would not stay attached to the ship and that is my point.

 

Now, when we get Bucky-Ball rigging I'll design you a !st rate that can hit 30kts.

[Destraex]

I should also add that I would like the wind to stop spinning around so quickly. It defeats tacking a lot of the time and in some cases means you are always against the wind. At least with a wind that prevails for a length of time you can predict where the wind will be in an hour or so and plan accordingly. Barring any world changes that change the wind according to time of day.

The spinning wind indicator that never fails in one direction a lot of the time just frustrates me. Because tacking is done near real time while the wind is at super speed.

[Blackjack Morgan]

Thing is, that those changes wont help much making unpopular ships more popular. Only thing you'll achieve is forcing people into sailing 6th rate downgrading from a frigate. Guess what? People will choose Mercury or Niagara in this case. How will that help Brig or Navybrig? When it comes to SOL's, no one with half a brain will sail their biggest ships in OW afraid to loose durability ( maybe crew with that also ). No person will ever sail SOL in OW like they are sailing frigates right now.

 

Basicaly this idea implemeted the way it is proposed will only make people sail mercury or niagara more often. It's not helping unpopular ships to become more usefull. Cerb, brigs, SOL's will still be a no go for OW. Is it really worth it? I myself would hate to downgrade for 6th rate as I dont like any of those ships. Not sure about other captains.

 

Perhaps the rewards gained while sailing "less popular" vessels could be increased? Perhaps it is in gold, xp, or some other yet to be implemented mechanic like prestige or notoriety. I have always felt like NA does a poor job of rewarding captains who sail out on some of the less desirable ships and actually succeed in battles, particularly pvp, then it should. A system like this seems to be a much more simple and rewarding one than forcing people into certain ships because nobody enjoys sailing them.

[Catastrophy]

Concerning high wind and sea: I've heard that sailships rather reduce their sails in storm conditions. I've also heard that ships would rather sail around or stay in port, the smaller - the more likely they are adversely affected by heavy weather. So I don't think heavy ships go faster in heavier weather - it's rather who can go through heavier weather at all. And in really heavy weather I don't think any ship of that time would be able to make any use of its weapons with all the rolling, waves and poor visibility - again - the smaller the ship - the more adversely affected it is in heavy weather.

Of course you'd need to simplify for game mechanics and if the game mechanics don't represent reality that's fine too. The important thing is that they make things fun and balance stuff while still maintaining the spirit of the game.

[Kaos]

Thing is, that those changes wont help much making unpopular ships more popular. Only thing you'll achieve is forcing people into sailing 6th rate downgrading from a frigate. Guess what? People will choose Mercury or Niagara in this case. How will that help Brig or Navybrig? When it comes to SOL's, no one with half a brain will sail their biggest ships in OW afraid to loose durability ( maybe crew with that also ). No person will ever sail SOL in OW like they are sailing frigates right now.

 

Basicaly this idea implemeted the way it is proposed will only make people sail mercury or niagara more often. It's not helping unpopular ships to become more usefull. Cerb, brigs, SOL's will still be a no go for OW. Is it really worth it? I myself would hate to downgrade for 6th rate as I dont like any of those ships. Not sure about other captains.

I hope it will not have the same fate as the brief honor kills system that forced people to sail the ''filler'' ships to rank up or become an additional reason to afk/log off when the wind is unfavorable for your favourite ship. We have an open world sandbox and somehow people choosing the most effective tools is a problem it seems. It reminds me when WoT tried to make historical battles but failed and had to cut it out of their game because everyone wanted to play Tigers and Panthers instead of Panzer II's and no matter how much they increased the rewards for the lighter tanks trying to make them attractive, they remained unpopular.

[Ratline]

If wind is something utterly predictable, that we can look at and say 'oh X ship will be useless for the next Y hours.. and especially with where the wind will be blowing from' then yeah people will simply log rather than play something they do not enjoy. And yes, those that do play will just sail the perceived 'best' ship for that set of wind parameters. 'Oh hai, it's a Mercury day, cba I'll play something else until tomorrow'.

 

If wind direction and strength were somewhat randomised we would have to actually make meaningful decisions about what we chose to sail, weighing the potential advantages and risks. We would need to adjust tactics and plans on the fly to compensate for the unforseen. Chases would no longer be long, boring drawn out but utterly predictable affairs, the wind might back round in one player's favour, the strength might change giving the chaser/chase an edge they needed. It would add complexity to the game.

 

I've seen it written that random wind was tried (I stand to be corrected) but that some captains didn't like it because it was too unpredictable and the current solution is 'the best' one for most people. If true it's very sad, in the same way we lost storm battles because some players found it interfered with their aiming (no shit, it's a storm).. life at sea should not all be plain sailing with predictable conditions.

 

The way I'd love to see it working is wind blows from compass point A and rotates towards compass point B at (rotational) speed X and strength Y. When it reaches point B these variables are then randomly changed but within certain limits, so we can't go straight from a calm southerly to the wind swinging round to a northerly gale with no/little warning, wind strength would need to ramp up before you hit a full gale giving us some warning and the chance to say 'Ah, looks like it's coming on to blow!' Obviously more complexity could be added, say with certain 'presets' for gales which might hold the wind at a certain strength and direction for a period of time before returning to the more random sequences.

Either way, while not totally true to life it seems a much more 'living' and realistic solution than the proposed predictable 'hey we have 18th century weather satellites allowing us to predict the wind for days in advance' system.

Edited May 1, 2016 by Ratline

[maturin]

When it comes to SOL's, no one with half a brain will sail their biggest ships in OW afraid to loose durability ( maybe crew with that also ). No person will ever sail SOL in OW like they are sailing frigates right now.

SoLs are already slower than everything. They can basically never run away.

With wind strength implemented they get a situational speed boost, making them more deadly and useful on the OW. Most importantly, it makes them scary. No more faffing about downwind of the SoL fleet, safe in the knowledge that you can never be caught. That's boring and it makes recon too easy. If I were you, I would time my operations to coincide with rough weather.

As for Niagara and Merc being more popular, that's fantastic. It will increase low-level PvP participation as those captains can stop grinding missions in order to survive the OW. And it will make it easier for shallow water PB groups to evade heavier blocking fleets.

Lastly, wind strength gives the devs tools to give unpopular ships a role. If people hate Cerb, then she can be a unique frigate that does well in light airs. Navy brig can be faster than Niagara in heavy weather. This is all plausible.

[meatpukk]

I've been waiting for this a long time.

 

I hope there will be different winds in different areas. I dont know much of the wather conditions in the Carribean, but I'm sure theres big differences between barbados and florida.

This will give the world a regional difference in weather conditions, and ship types, certain ships are more useful in certain areas.

 

Another thing I think would be cool, is seperated sea state from the wind. for example that coastal waters will have different sea state than the open sea. at the same wind speed.
And that sea state will be a factor in ship speed, larger deeper vessels will handle rough seas better than smaller shallow ones. A heavy trader could possibly outrun a lighter ship in heavy seas, for example. And the smaller ships will rule the coastal waters

[Jeheil]

These changes (in essence) are all very exciting and have a huge impact on the game (and will initially be a shock to those of us plodding around EA).

 

A couple of things :

 

I cheer at the notion of variable wind speeds, different effects on different ships etc. I do think it is very important that the information as to what wind effect has on which ship is very clearly (and put the effort in to make it look nice) explained. Look at modules now...then do the opposite (marines %age is 0.3 which means 30% I think).

 

So as a captain, I need a NICE way of understanding the expected winds (as any captain would) and a very clear way of understanding the impact that has on my 'journey'. Then we get all the bad luck of a weather change etc...well that is fine...and we will hate it appropriatly and ignore it when it benefits us as is our pysche.

 

I would also REALLY REALLY like some 'trade winds', where there are relatively predictable 'corridors' of wind and weather (with a splash of RnG) that create obvious 'highways' across the water.

 

Oh and perhaps avoid the doldrums. Real yes....good for a game...mebee not !

[maturin]

 

I hope there will be different winds in different areas. I dont know much of the wather conditions in the Carribean, but I'm sure theres big differences between barbados and florida.

True, but how do the people in Florida know what the wind is like in Barbados? For all they know, it's the same everywhere else.

[Destraex]

Maturin I think he means that there should be wind changes that people encounter as they sail. i.e. a massive change in strength or direction all at once... so in effect different areas change the wind for you as you enter them.

[Hyperion74]

The variable winds should be a breeze to handle. Can't believe that no one made this joke yet.

I like the idea of the wind changes. Wind speed is not static.

 

Leave chasers alone. If a ship class was designed and built with chasers it should have chasers.

[Jonathan Villiers]

Totally liking the idea of non-static wind and emphasizing how certain ships work in different wind and weather settings. SotL had a huge advantage in heavy wind due to their higher masts compared to frigates. They could catch some wind with their sails even when in the bottom between two high waves while smaller ships totally lost any propulsion. Makes things surly more interesting.

 

As for the bow chasers, also liking that idea. Being able to improvise bow/stern chasers by using the smalles guns from your upper deck sounds very historic and interesting. As previous posters have stated it should come on cost of time to move those guns and by thinning out your gun deck for those two guns you move. Gives interesting choices as if to use carronades to substitute those "useless" small caliber 4 and 6 pounders.

 

Thumbs up for both ideas.

 

One more thing were not only wind strength but that the wind is predictibly turning around the compass instead of random, weather based winds from one direction for longer periods of time. I would like to see this too.

[Banana_Joe]

Dont like the chaser idea. I would sacrifice realism for playability here. It adds some kind of rock, paper, scissors mechanics which leads to a higher diversity in the ships used

[Ratline]

Re the additional proposals. Like the idea of increasing the broadside tankyness and, to an extent, compacting ship hitpoints. Wouldn't take it too far though or we run the risk of ending up in a situation where ships simply feel rather generic and choice (within a rating/class) simply comes down to 'which looks the best'. Chasers I have mixed feelings about for the reasons given in the post above.

 

I'd definitely like the increase in broadside strength in tandem with an increased relevance for 'critical' hits and damage, especially if you can implement that with officers. A lucky shot which takes out several officers, for example, should drastically reduce a ship's fighting efficiency.

Edited May 2, 2016 by Ratline

[maturin]

Dont like the chaser idea. I would sacrifice realism for playability here. It adds some kind of rock, paper, scissors mechanics which leads to a higher diversity in the ships used

Rock, paper, scissors?

 

I would describe it as scissors vs. turd, which is not quite as good a game...