Ship role, comparisons of vessels and wind strength

[admin]

I meant exit timers affected by closure rate.

 

No locking distances.

 

Base Exit Timer = 2 minutes

Closure rate with closest enemy = X (positive or negative)

Actual Exit Timer = 2X

 

So a speed-fit Renommee could give a 5-minute exit timer to a Santi, but the Santi would only have 40 seconds to catch the Renommee.

 

Yes and yes. 

 

Ships without bow chasers are useless for solo OW PvP and this does them a huge injustice.

 

 

this will only work in 1v1 and will provide confusion in group battles. 

exit timer is easy to understand - you are hit you cannot exit

distance timer is also easy - you are 1km away from the nearest enemy you can exit

 

all other systems are not simple = thus are either hard to design and tune or hard to visualize

[Enraged Ewok]

not sure thats true.  With a proper tag on the OS virtually any boat can catch any boat.

 

Take into account optimal wind angles in relation to the other ship and land in battle.   Force your prey to sail past or through you to reach their best angle.  Or drive them into the coast.     I have caught quiet a few far faster ships like this.

 

I disagree. The only time I've managed to catch a faster ship with a chaserless one (only recent was a Trincomalee in my Essex) was due to him making several huge mistakes. Primarily no attempt to countertag, and then sailing on his best point of sail into land when he would have outrun me on beam reach heading into open sea. He didn't make the break for ocean until I had removed his mainmast, and his sail repair was long gone at that point. Point being, it is possible but highly unlikely unless the captain of the faster ship is far less experienced and you get the perfect tag with respect to land and wind.

 

 

The vast majority of boats pvping on the OS are already the Renn, the conni, and the trinc.

 

Add chasers to all boats and say goodbye to the trinc.  Say goodbye for the need of a tagger at all.  Say hello to nothing but connis and fail fit renns. 

 

Because with the BR limit gone, the Renomee is back in business tagging ships and staying barely in range to tag sails without getting utterly destroyed by return fire, which I personally find quite silly. Trincomalee and Constitution have always been popular PVP choices, Trinc due to speed and 4 possible chances to keep an enemy at long distance tagged (to say nothing of her firepower for an 18pd frigate), and Constitution for her mix of durability, crew size, and chasers. I've noticed Ingermanlands beginning to replace the Constitution due to similar speed but higher crew and firepower.

 

Giving all ships the ability to use chasers is not going to make the Trincomalee disappear. She is still faster than any 5th rate other than the Renomee, more heavily armed and more durable than any other 5th rate, and more heavily crewed than any other 5th rate. Giving chasers to the remaining ships that lack them simply means they are actually a choice for solo OW PVP instead of requiring someone else with chasers to keep their prey in battle. Constitution will not magically replace the Trinc as she is unable to catch a lot of those other 5th rates. She comes into her own when hunting larger prey.

[Eishen]

I meant exit timers affected by closure rate.

 

No locking distances.

 

Base Exit Timer = 2 minutes

Closure rate with closest enemy = X (positive or negative)

Actual Exit Timer = 2X

 

So a speed-fit Renommee could give a 5-minute exit timer to a Santi, but the Santi would only have 40 seconds to catch the Renommee.

 

Yes and yes. 

 

Ships without bow chasers are useless for solo OW PvP and this does them a huge injustice.

 

Sound , as long as  those 5 -min  40 secs can be reinitiated on tag by shooting as now? .It will make more viable ships without chasers while maintaining chasers useful. 

 

Even with these I think if wouold be positive allowing 1-2 improvised chasers in most ships, as it seems quite  feasible "point forward" those in most ships

[Carljcharles]

not sure thats true.  With a proper tag on the OS virtually any boat can catch any boat.

 

Take into account optimal wind angles in relation to the other ship and land in battle.   Force your prey to sail past or through you to reach their best angle.  Or drive them into the coast.     I have caught quiet a few far faster ships like this.

 

 

The vast majority of boats pvping on the OS are already the Renn, the conni, and the trinc.

 

Add chasers to all boats and say goodbye to the trinc.  Say goodbye for the need of a tagger at all.  Say hello to nothing but connis and fail fit renns. 

 

The problem is the current exit timer is really short (1:30) between tags. Unless you chase in OW until you are very close to your pray u have little chance for an engagement. So unless you start or can very quickly move into long cannon range and have bow chasers, your pray will escape even if the opposition ship is slower.

The other issue is there is often little difference in ship speeds in battle instance. Last night I was in my trinc chasing a player LGV. Trinc one of the fastest ships in the game only catching LGV very slowly. In OW my closing speed was still slow so went for battle instead. Unfortunately, I then started well outside long cannon chaser range. I tried to close and fire long range cannon but I only have just over a 1:30 to get a hit. Now consider this...

The trinc is the only ship to have 4 bow chasers. Even the smallest light weight cannon take 30 seconds to reload. So even if I was in range I only probably have 12 shots and maximum range to hit him before he can escape, despite the fact that I have a faster ship (assuming correct sailing angle).

So the escape mechanic is needed to stop the 'endless chase', but it feels too weighted towards the runner right now. And that's even when using a trinc with 4 bow chasers, only a few ships have bow chasers at all, and even fewer have sufficient speed and bow chaser to really be of use, (Trinc and Surprise).

So that is the issue. I'm not pressing the matter until the battle start mechanic has been addressed which the dev's are working on, because that *may* help re-balance this.

 

My thought was, is there sufficient difference in speed between the ships?  Or is the battle exit timer the main fault? I'm not sure and we also now potentially have wind speed to affect things.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Carljcharles

[Eishen]

not sure thats true.  With a proper tag on the OS virtually any boat can catch any boat.

 

Take into account optimal wind angles in relation to the other ship and land in battle.   Force your prey to sail past or through you to reach their best angle.  Or drive them into the coast.     I have caught quiet a few far faster ships like this.

 

 

The vast majority of boats pvping on the OS are already the Renn, the conni, and the trinc.

 

Add chasers to all boats and say goodbye to the trinc.  Say goodbye for the need of a tagger at all.  Say hello to nothing but connis and fail fit renns. 

 

You cannot count with a "proper tag" in most  1vs1 common situations , as long as the other side knows how to countertag.

[RA6E]

If my opinion is desired...   making open world travel more tedious and time consuming is undesirable.  I am all for adding depth and immersion to a game.   Here's what I see, logging on for the two hours a night I actually have time for and basically not being able to travel anywhere I want or need to go.  Not even daring trying to make a long trip because weather could turn and I end up locked to my keyboard to get my ship somewhere safe for more hours than I have?   This appears to be headed down the route of a very hardcore simulator..   Probably not for me with real life and all.  

[BungeeLemming]

Ships such as the Essex have cannons mounted in gunports which's orthogonals point about 45° forward.

So why cant we use broadside guns as chasers with limited shooting arc?

 

Many ships have the same appearance.

Ofthen you want to close your enemy on a parallel course, which means that your front guns start loosing gunarc.

Which then means you have to point towards your opponent (from time to time)

 

You will make ships such as the Essex much more vital in their approach from behind.

Whereas Trincos, Constis etc are just as nice as they are now

[Arsilon]

If you do this, you definitely should seriously rethink implications on any other restrictions place on ROE for battles, e.g. 1.5 BR.  Unless you have 100% uniformity on ship makeup in any groups, it will be near impossible to stay packed together as the wind changes.  You can say that better sailing is required to ensure formation but there is a limit to how much is reasonable when taking all other dynamic factors into account.

 

In general I like this concept but would need to think of what the other implications would be.  The ROE implication was just the first one that popped to mind when I read it.  My gut also tells me that it would make the game that much more difficult to play when there is already such a steep learning curve for new players.  Are the advantages for "realism" worth the potential negative impact on pace of play and "fun"?

[Babble]

You cannot count with a "proper tag" in most  1vs1 common situations , as long as the other side knows how to countertag.

Then it becomes a cat and mouse of two skilled captains and OS placement on tags and retags.

 

Good.  This takes skill.  Also i love that this is now an argument when it was largly ignored during the BR ganking threads.  If you're a skilled captain you can only be ganked if you make a mistake.   Again ganking is a non issue.

 

 

So are we arguing that give youre in a certain ship you should be able to catch anything regardless of the OS tag.   Thats silly and will lead to even less variance in OS ships.  

 

The current system works fine.  The real issue is the lack of front lines, limits on joining on going battles, and OS speed which lead to everyone getting frustrated because they sailed around for 2 hours saw one guy.  Tried to tag him , got shit wind and they got away.

[maturin]

Let's be realistic here, though.

 

Given a normal encounter between competent players, perfect tags are almost never going to happen. In a complicated scenario, one player might  outplay the other. Or a trader might be AFK, trapped against land, etc. But the ship without chasers can't catch anything in an equitable situation where its quarry is attentive and behaving rationally.

 

Hell, half the time you can successfully disengage from a fight even if you have been brought to close action. Choose a moment when your opponent is tacking, then turn tail and flee. Without chasers, they will probably be incapable of reaching you in time.

[OTMatt]

the problem with distance timers is inability to exit at all in some situation

for example

chasing ship is within the locking distance

his speed is 12 knots your speed is 12 knots

you both cannot exit then for 1.5 hours forcing the chase to last 1.5 hours without the ability for the runner to exit at all

in the current system you will exit if he misses or if he cannot shoot

in the distance based exit system the chasing ship can keep you in battle for 1.5 hours by just sailing and doing nothing

Can you just make a basic bonus to ships without bow chasers

Add extra time if the chasing ship gains on the enemy, it does not have to be complex. Every 50 meters gained on the enemy is an additional 5 minutes. Its a good easy bonus that does not adjust with time.

Its definitely better than no bonus at all for the ships that lack chasers ingame.

[Babble]

Let's be realistic here, though. (Okay,)

 

Given a normal encounter between competent players, perfect tags are almost never going to happen.(So you're telling me OS tagging is skilled based.  And a skilled captin will not put himself in a bad position. Why is this a problem?) In a complicated scenario, one player might  outplay the other. Or a trader might be AFK,(he was far from AFK. Scared for sure due to the amount of cargo he was carrying. Mistakes were made but i simply out sialed a less skilled captain. Thats the point of the game no?) trapped against land, etc. But the ship without chasers can't catch anything in an equitable situation where its quarry is attentive and behaving rationally.

 

Hell, half the time you can successfully disengage from a fight even if you have been brought to close action. Choose a moment when your opponent is tacking, then turn tail and flee. Without chasers, they will probably be incapable of reaching you in time.(So you forced your opponent to tack through wind and then made your escape? thats takes skill and strategy.  Again where is the problem?)

I honestly feel like the argument here is "hey man if I'm sailing a fir Essex, with copper plating , and speed trim.  I should be able to catch any boat regardless of how i tagged them on the OS"

 

 

This would reduce the skill required to successfully tag someone.  Get anything within 40 meters of your boat and attack.  Worry about the rest in battle.

 

 

Isnt the real problem lack of pvp?

Edited April 27, 2016 by Babble

[Capt Jubal Early]

Real good ideas seriously looking forward to this. Anything that diversifies the fleets will make this game alot better.

PS 
Dont remove chasers.

[maturin]

I honestly feel like the argument here is "hey man if I'm sailing a fir Essex, with copper plating , and speed trim.  I should be able to catch any boat regardless of how i tagged them on the OS"

 

 

This would reduce the skill required to successfully tag someone.  Get anything within 40 meters of your boat and attack.  Worry about the rest in battle.

 

So catching someone in a speed-fit Essex requires skill and a perfect tag.

Catching someone in a live oak extra-planking Trinc requires zero skill, and can be successful even with a terrible tag.

 

Because the former has no chasers, while the latter has four. If you don't see how this is a terrible distortion, I don't know what else to say. Essex and Trinc are very similar ships in reality.

[OTMatt]

Its a little weird to have to go above and beyond to catch an enemy ship with an essex or any ship without bow chasers.

 

It is skill based and questionable why anyone would want to spend the time trying to maneuver their ship into a good angle with the enemy when instead they can take the easy route and just use a ship with bow guns.

 

Not only that but then they have to spend half their time in battle damaging sails to ensure the enemy does not try and sail away. While the trinco on the other hand does not have to worry once he caught the enemy.

[akd]

the problem with distance timers is inability to exit at all in some situation

for example

chasing ship is within the locking distance

his speed is 12 knots your speed is 12 knots

you both cannot exit then for 1.5 hours forcing the chase to last 1.5 hours without the ability for the runner to exit at all

in the current system you will exit if he misses or if he cannot shoot

in the distance based exit system the chasing ship can keep you in battle for 1.5 hours by just sailing and doing nothing

So use a combination of distance from nearest enemy and time. shorter distance = more time on the clock. If very close, timer can be long, but no one will ever be trapped in perpetual chase. Faster ships without chasers can "reset" timer by closing the distance and are less penalized for turning to give a broadside. This removes the need for fake chasers on some ships (e.g. the smaller fore-and-aft ships), but I still think there needs to be an overall chaser reform (remove fake chasers present on some ships, add more flexibility for chasers on others if their design physically allowed for it).

[Destraex]

Be nice to have gusting winds as well.

I think with chasers that ships that had them by design should have them. Ships that did not and are sizeable enough to be able to manoever cannon at sea should be able to move some with a time penalty back and forth.

As for compressing hit points so one ship can take on three I think this needs more explanation, but I think you are saying their would be an unrealistic limit to damage taken when attacked by multiple ships at once. I don't like this as it is not realistic.

 

I do however love the wind idea. Perhaps with dead patches as well that drop to a few knots and would have required ships boats...

[Hethwill]

I really enjoy these proposed changes.

 

While I may be conflicted between the historical truth of the chasers and the gameplay side I must say that the former might be appropriate but with limitations on the size. So it bears down to the guns we equip for the deck if they become available to move to the positions and if so how much time it takes.

 

Regarding the wind, it is worth testing as plain as you put it. We can then provide more feedback. Given it is the most vital thing in both OW and battle small changes and testing is the best way.

 

Also, and connected to the wind, review the yard handling speeds. Some of the rigs are quite big and the sail canvas carry a lot of wind exerting a lot of strength but they turn as expedient as a sloop yard.

[Vryali]

I feel, as a relatively new player myself, that this could negatively effect players of low rank with a limited number of ships to pilot. If I have only a few ships to choose from, and for example, both my options are horrible for the day of weather, what are my options? Play the game and be a target of opportunity, or wait until the weather improves? As a low rank player in this example, I'm just wanting to level up and gain experience and I feel that this could be crippling. I for one like the idea of it, and I would love to test it, but just a thought.

As for chasers, I have little experience with, for or against. Generally, I enjoy the ships being modeled as they once were in all their glory.

Cheers

[maturin]

I feel, as a relatively new player myself, that this could negatively effect players of low rank with a limited number of ships to pilot. If I have only a few ships to choose from, and for example, both my options are horrible for the day of weather, what are my options? Play the game and be a target of opportunity, or wait until the weather improves? As a low rank player in this example, I'm just wanting to level up and gain experience and I feel that this could be crippling. I for one like the idea of it, and I would love to test it, but just a thought.

I think you're mistaken as to the effects of this change. The worst-case scenario for new players is now.

 

Right now, low-level warships are usually too slow to escape from frigates, which makes OW PvP very risky. Your brig is just a tasty snack for the more experienced captains.

 

But in light wind conditions you will find that the tables sometime turn, and put the odds in your favor. Your brig friends might wake up one morning with the new opportunity to go frigate hunting.

[akd]

I do not like the idea that the conditions are scheduled and predictable.  That sounds more like an annoyance than a way to diversify battles.

[Hugo van Grojt]

I honestly feel like the argument here is "hey man if I'm sailing a fir Essex, with copper plating , and speed trim.  I should be able to catch any boat regardless of how i tagged them on the OS"

 

 

This would reduce the skill required to successfully tag someone.  Get anything within 40 meters of your boat and attack.  Worry about the rest in battle.

 

 

Isnt the real problem lack of pvp?

 

Can we please stay on topic? This thread is about WIND SPEED and (to a limited extent) addition/removal of bow chasers.

[Babble]

Can we please stay on topic? This thread is about WIND SPEED and (to a limited extent) addition/removal of bow chasers.

Then to a "limited extent" it is on topic.

 

Can we please stay on topic?

[surfimp]

I am happy to see wind speed implemented and am very interested in how it will effect the combat instance:

 

- If I fail to reef my sails in strong conditions, will there be a risk of rigging & spar damage, as well as the possibility of broaching and capsize?

 

- In strong conditions, assuming I reef my sails appropriately, will I still be able to achieve my ship's maximum speed while avoiding damage to my rigging?

 

- Will there be a relationship between wind strength and sea state?

 

As for the chasers discussion - the Privateer & Lynx have gunports in their stern for chasers but these cannot be fitted. Not sure if that is by design or accidental, but I would love to see the option of equipping guns there (with associated performance impacts).

[maturin]

I do not like the idea that the conditions are scheduled and predictable.  That sounds more like an annoyance than a way to diversify battles.

Well, hopefully it would be more like a barometer forecast than a perfect schedule of changes.