Are 3rd rates too disposable?

[Potemkin]

So my entire argument is invalid because of blockaders and a few people in cutters. Right, great talk. There are crafters here and they are doing what they can. I was merely saying that a member of a zerg nation advocating removing 3rds when they have the means to equip their players with better ships is assenine and wont happen anytime soon.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Potemkin

[CptEdwardKenway]

First you would wonder how many capped 3rd rates were used by all the big nations. For me I want them to be removed. All of them. It was a place holder for the Bellona. So there is no reason to keep this ship in this game. And port battles need to be changed general. At the moment it's all about who can bring the highest BR. Of course on one side there are a hell of capped 3rds. On the other side there are the 1st rates to overbid that BR. At the moment 1,2 or 3 big ships are useless because everyone just tries to destroy thise ships. There is no will in winning a pb or the fight. They loose all capped sol and don't care about it. On the other side frigates are also worthless. That's why this needs to be changed. Every ship and every player should be able to participate with a ship they like. For me I would love to have the Ingermanland but I can't see any use for it now.

The mechanic forces us to cap ai 3rd and craft 1st all the time. This needs to be changed and the ai sol to be removed.

[thp]

Right now, the rich players can afford to have first rate, second rate or crafted third rate that give certainly an advatange but the gap is still not that hug and still allow the poor people that can only use caped third rate to win if they play well.  When removing the caped third rate, the poor players will have no chance against the rich anymore.
Human mind never ceases to amaze me, even in game some people still believe the rich must always win and the poor is condeemed to suffer.

Edited April 2, 2016 by thp

[CptEdwardKenway]

Never said that. The mechanics need to be changed. Even smaller ships should be a must be in port battles. Smaller nations should not have that disadvantage when both needs small ships.

[Porpoise]

Right now, the rich players can afford to have first rate, second rate or crafted third rate that give certainly an advatange but the gap is still not that hug and still allow the poor people that can only use caped third rate to win if they play well.  When removing the caped third rate, the poor players will have no chance against the rich anymore.

Human mind never ceases to amaze me, even in game some people still believe the rich must always win and the poor is condeemed to suffer.

 

There are plenty of ships that can be used in port battles. There is no need for battles with 25 vs 25 ships of the line, the less SOL, the more diversity in the battles and better chance for lower ranks to participate in them. 

Yes it helps poor players to sail 3rd rate, but I do ask. Why should I do crafting, running missions, just playing the game when the poor player is getting the same ship as I do without any effort or time spent playing the game? The game should be rewarding for those who spend some time playing and doing things, not just logging in to cap 3rd and then burn her in the first PB they enter.

The AI 3rd rates are only increasing the number of 1st and 2nd rates in game. If they were not present, the 3rd rates will consume the majority of labour hours and resources.

[Quineloe]

Yes that's the big issue - 3rd rates require almost as  much effort as first rates, and captured third rates are the only source for SOME players to get port battle ready.

 

I don't believe that players would craft third rates instead of first rates in your scenario.

 

If Third rates couldnt be captured, people would bring captured constitutions. But the gap between first rates and captured ships would widen.

 

Now I don't want to see an artifical inflation of first rate build effort like Failing Career Studios tried with POBS and the lineship bundle, but given we just captured three third rates in 45 minutes including sailing between missions, I wonder why a shipwright can only craft a third rate every 30 hours. IMO if the choice wasn't between "1 Santi or 1.3 Bellonas" but rather 1 Santi or 4 Bellonas, then that would be far more viable. So if captured port battle ships had to go away, and for the sake of the economy I'd like that very much, it should be very easy to craft the most basic port battle ships.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Quineloe

[thp]

There are plenty of ships that can be used in port battles. There is no need for battles with 25 vs 25 ships of the line, the less SOL, the more diversity in the battles and better chance for lower ranks to participate in them. 

Yes it helps poor players to sail 3rd rate, but I do ask. Why should I do crafting, running missions, just playing the game when the poor player is getting the same ship as I do without any effort or time spent playing the game? The game should be rewarding for those who spend some time playing and doing things, not just logging in to cap 3rd and then burn her in the first PB they enter.

The AI 3rd rates are only increasing the number of 1st and 2nd rates in game. If they were not present, the 3rd rates will consume the majority of labour hours and resources.

That s true, that s why I am for limite max rank ships in battle, like in total war game, they used to limite 4 - 6 units at the same types ( that avoid spamming the same type units) and some limited number for elite units, actually those rules have been made by players themself when they made tournament in rome total war and later officially included in game by  developers. But it was in a stategy game when 1 player control 1 nation, I think it could a be harder to apply in this kind of game.

Anyway ships of line have always been used in big battle against other nations because that s how they meant to be, fighting in line,

Frigate are using to patrol, escort ,or  protecting the flank , hardly use in the line of battle. Maybe in future, the developers will add some battle mechanics that allow frigates to be more usefull in port battle.

Edited April 2, 2016 by thp

[Porpoise]

Of course they will craft 3rds. The reason is the value. Bellona is only slightly worse than Pavel, but she has 3 durability for lower price. It is a budget option and common choice for non hardcore players. And you have also Ingermanland - another budget option. We could see her more often if she has 4 dura (I think she has 3). 

 

I am looking into the future. The clans will be more organized and if there is no chance for gaining costless 3rds there will be doctrines for PB for sure. And there low-cost ships with high dura and solid firepower can shine without destroying the clans production ability in desparate chance to replenish their lost 1st rates. The amount of produced ships will matter, now it does not, because everyone has spare 3rd.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Porpoise

[Tugmund]

If this awful idea goes through, what do you spose will happen? you'll just have loads of Constitutions instead of loads of 3rd rates, spose you remove both? it always goes to the next best ship thats cappable. 

[Porpoise]

If this awful idea goes through, what do you spose will happen? you'll just have loads of Constitutions instead of loads of 3rd rates, spose you remove both? it always goes to the next best ship thats cappable. 

 

any AI ship which is not crafted, but spawned, should not be captureable

Edited April 3, 2016 by Porpoise

[Hethwill]

any AI ship which is not crafted, but spawned, should not be captureable

 

Up to and including 5th rates.

 

6th rates and below are okay I guess.

 

Obviously trader versions not included.

[Wilson09]

Yes, they are....they are making it even into "small batles" in great numbers now....sickening....

[Carljcharles]

Having read this whole thread and being a fairly new player who has done mostly my own crafting and just a little clan work, who also enjoys pve I would offer my open minded response to this interesting discuss.

AI battles still allow players of all levels an interesting challenge 24/7 wit a chance to try a new ship if u want. The best suggestion to solve the 3rd rate spam problem and still provide lots of other benefits was to allow capture of all types of ai ship 1st-7th but simply make their grades a fraction of a crafted ship.

Why can't a new player taken on an large Ai 1St rate fleet in any ship and get destroyed in seconds. This is sandbox.

The other great suggestion along with this was to greatly limited any reward from using Ai captured ships. If u want to spam 25 captured 3rds in a pb fine, u may just do it but the reward should hardly be worth the time to organise the pb.

Lastly the idea of reward based on risk is desperately needed and could be easy to implement using the existing BR. Any in balance should factor the risk/reward.

All these three ideas are very sound and support the following;

1- craftING sol even 3rd rates is worthwhile because captures ships are half as good and provide little return.

2- ALL ships can be part of Ai fleets.

3- All players have a chance to try out all ships at a much faster rate than the current grind. But if u want the real thing u have to work for it.

4- top level players still get a fleets that could be challenging.

5- skill is rewarded. If you win battles against higher BR ships u receive greater rewards.

6- this also promotes ships at the lower end of the scale as wading in with your SOL to minor battles ain't going to be very rewarding for u.

7- all these points don't introduce weird *restriction* to try and keep some balance in the game. It keeps the choices fully open and sandbox to all players at all levels.

[Marcomies]

Plentiful npc 3rd rates are making port battles and large ship pvp in general bit too low-risk business. Many people who own larger ships still use captured 3rd rates in port battles if the result of the battle is not certain.

 

Maybe the captured npc ships should be always sent to admiralty (for a reward) and could then be bought from the admiralty in the capital for a decent price if the player so so desires. This would help with the free-ship mentality of the capped 3rd rates and not being able to just send them to any outpost right after capturing would further promote using crafted ships.

[G'Kar Rah]

Just reduce the Battle Rating (BR) of Captured Ships to 50%.  Captured 3rd vs Player Built 3rd, 250BR vs 500BR.  Make the ship type "Captured 3rd Rate"  just like "Basic Cutter" vs "Cutter".

 

This would reduce open ocean tagging effectiveness and give a preference for using crafted 3rds.

 

I still think the combat effectiveness of Captured 3rds should be reduced.  Crafted 3rd rates need to be much easier to produce for players than 1st rates.

[Sir Robert Calder]

My biggest gripe with 3rd Rates isn't that they are capturable, but the fact that crafting a 3rd Rate is absolutely pointless given that you will have a limit of 3 durability. It doesn't help that the Bellona is the same exact ship but with better guns and aesthetic.

 

If the 3rd Rate is to be the baseline of all other SoLs in the upcoming PBs, I'd consider the crafted 3rd Rate being upped to 4 or 5 durability in order to be more sink-friendly while keeping the Bellona at 3 Durability for those who want increased firepower at higher risk while maintaining a 3rd Rate class.

[Hethwill]

My biggest gripe with 3rd Rates isn't that they are capturable, but the fact that crafting a 3rd Rate is absolutely pointless given that you will have a limit of 3 durability. It doesn't help that the Bellona is the same exact ship but with better guns and aesthetic.

 

If the 3rd Rate is to be the baseline of all other SoLs in the upcoming PBs, I'd consider the crafted 3rd Rate being upped to 4 or 5 durability in order to be more sink-friendly while keeping the Bellona at 3 Durability for those who want increased firepower at higher risk while maintaining a 3rd Rate class.

 

Free 1 durability versus Costly 3 duras...hmmm....

 

Bellona still has more inherent structural soundness than the 3rd rate. It is not only a matter of guns and aesthetic or hp.

[thp]

My biggest gripe with 3rd Rates isn't that they are capturable, but the fact that crafting a 3rd Rate is absolutely pointless given that you will have a limit of 3 durability. It doesn't help that the Bellona is the same exact ship but with better guns and aesthetic.

 

If the 3rd Rate is to be the baseline of all other SoLs in the upcoming PBs, I'd consider the crafted 3rd Rate being upped to 4 or 5 durability in order to be more sink-friendly while keeping the Bellona at 3 Durability for those who want increased firepower at higher risk while maintaining a 3rd Rate class.

3 durabilities is a good advantage compared to caped 3rd rate ship, that allow you to bring all your costly upgraded, like gold pawder monkey, other any other gold upgraded without losing them even if you have been sunk in battle.

[Marten van de Voerde]

3 durabilities is a good advantage compared to caped 3rd rate ship, that allow you to bring all your costly upgraded, like gold pawder monkey, other any other gold upgraded without losing them even if you have been sunk in battle.

Honesltly problem aint in advantage vs capped 3rd rate, but rather practical lack of any bonuses when compared to Bellona. More dura could be that gimmick allowing to choose between them, not blindly going for one type.

[The Spud]

It just offers great flexibility to a nation. The amount of SoL a nation can produce is limited by the amount of labour hours it can dedicate towards producing ships. And a big nation can do this better than a smaller nation. The small amount of durability these have would mean that a crushing defeat in a Port attack could take a nation days to recover. In those days a nation can lose a huge amount of port battles becausee they don't have the ships needed to defend.

 

Now instead of waiting days until they have new SoL produced, they can just use their capped 3rd rates to defend ports. A month ago all the PB's were nearly only 3rd rates, and I could agree that a PB was not very risky for a nation if the whole PB is just capped 3rd rates on both sides. While now allot of 2nd and 1st rates are being used. Its a whole new game, they are realy carefull with their ship. They won't take risks like they did in a 3rd rate back when 3rd rates ruled the sea.

[Quineloe]

3 durabilities is a good advantage compared to caped 3rd rate ship, that allow you to bring all your costly upgraded, like gold pawder monkey, other any other gold upgraded without losing them even if you have been sunk in battle.

 

Gold powder monkeys? I'm curious, how many of these even exist in the game right now?

Now that crafters have reached level 50,  many upgrades are now reasonably easy to obtain anyways at exceptional quality, but with drop only stuff like powder monkeys or marines, it's a bit too much like a korean grinding game.

 

 

 

No one is crafting regular third rates, because Bellonas and Pavels cost basically the same and are so much better.

[SKurj.]

Don't agree with the poll..  allow capture, remove ability to sail captured AI ships above 6th rate, allow the ability to sail all ships captured from players.

[Marcomies]

One option would be reducing or removing the 3rd rates from open world and forcing all ships captured in missions to be sent to admiralty. This would also allow having ships larger than 3rd rates in missions.

 

Preventing people from boarding 3rd rates (or any other ships) in age of sail game would be like only allowing use of bayonets in WW2 game so that's an absolute negatory.