Scammer PvP 1 - TRR Member

[Stealthems]

Hey recently I hit commodore and wanted someone to build me a ST Pavel and I was approached by someone who said he could do so, down below is all the screenshots I have of our conversation and the trading taken place. It took me several hours to gather the materials as well as a lot of gold buying them I knew the risk but I thought I could trust someone whom our clans have diplomatic agreements with, guess I was wrong. Ive heard nothing can be done and from looking at the other scam post nothing will be done but atleast go away with a warning that it does happen even on friendly clans and such. 

 

Edit-He is no longer TRR So dont give them grief

 

He then goes onto advertise this in Britain chat: http://imgur.com/1IEi0Fk

Edited March 5, 2016 by Stealthems

[Powderhorn]

As this isn't a tribunal case, perhaps it needs to be posted up in the National subforum as a sort of "buyer beware."

[Rigge1988]

It's never adviced to trust a stranger. Pretty much applies for everything in life.

[Pigafetta]

This is the reason why I decided to set some time apart and collect all the material and build the ship by MYSELF. 

There are some pragmatic ways to defend oneself from scammers, but why waste my time with some people who will ruin such beautiful game? Seeing in the forum that people started to denounce scammers is a good beginning.

Caveat emptor my ancestors used to say... I say now Caveat scammer!

Edited March 5, 2016 by Antonio_Pigafetta

[Konali89]

Distastefull

 

I only do such deals with regulars that i speak on teamspeak.

The only other way i would do a similar trade is at the same time, he shows the ship, i show the materials and we accept trade at the same time. Nothing beforehand.

[Prater]

Price being mats + notes should have been a "too good to be true" warning, however, I hope scamming isn't allowed by the devs.

[MalakithSkadi]

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/11362-thieves-in-nation/

 

They already gave their response on the topic regarding tribunals.

 

Henry d'Esterre Darby

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Posted 01 March 2016 - 03:10 PM

Thank you.  Currently, there are no rules against this activity, and attempting to enforce any rules would be far too draining on resources.

 

The official word at this time is that players should be careful who they are doing business with, and only give materials/money up front to those they trust completely.  There might be a feature or two in the future that will help to punish this kind of behavior, however, this is not possible currently.

 

Scamming in this matter, while frowned upon, is not a tribunal offense.  Caveat emptor.

 

Case dismissed.

[Lord Roberts]

Just blacklist their names and make sure it's plasted everywhere so no one trades with them.

Edited March 5, 2016 by Lord Roberts

[Ligatorswe]

The dilemma is that he might just change name and move to another nation. I think that it should be possibe to identify every player via its ID in Steam.

[Ligatorswe]

I will propose that in the suggestion-section.

[M G]

Obvious scam is obvious.

[mouse of war]

The scammer might change his name and/or move to another nation but obviously that would involve losing his xp

 

I think we should have a permanent sticky thread that lists (with evidence of course) these scammers

 

I'm not even sure if an online thief is any better than one in RL and I hate thieves.

[Lord Roberts]

As the devs have stated it's not against the rules so sadly people are going to have to find out for themselves who are the scammers if they do change nations or whatever. Best not to trust strangers and find a good clan with people you can trust, or try crafting for yourself.

[Tomms123]

The scammer might change his name and/or move to another nation but obviously that would involve losing his xp

 

I think we should have a permanent sticky thread that lists (with evidence of course) these scammers

 

I'm not even sure if an online thief is any better than one in RL and I hate thieves.

The player wouldnt lose the XP. The player (if not given to one the player trust for safekeeping ) would lose the ships,gold and the special blueprints the player have gotten from crafting/breaking up ship.

The rank XP and crafting XP is tied to the account.

[Tindahbawx]

Nationals who scam should be moved to the Pirate faction, otherwise how would any of the people they have wronged get their satisfaction? They cannot shoot them, given that green-on-green combat is forbidden.

 

Why should you not be able to shoot someone who has slighted you and taken your wallet?

 

Given that victims currently have no option for recourse if they are a National player, and scammed by another national of their faction, for now, perhaps scamming amongst nationals should be expressly forbidden?

Edited March 5, 2016 by Tindahbawx

[Quineloe]

Crafting ships for all materials provided is not an "obvious scam", it's something that is done every day because crafting a ship can be very rewarding if you get a free note or even better a rare BP out of it.

This needs to be changed. Players are expected to behave within the common decency that was standard back then, not today, and scamming simply was not acceptable back then, even if it is today.

[VictusB]

Nationals who scam should be moved to the Pirate faction, otherwise how would any of the people they have wronged get their satisfaction? They cannot shoot them, given that green-on-green combat is forbidden.

 

Why should you not be able to shoot someone who has slighted you and taken your wallet?

 

Given that victims currently have no option for recourse if they are a National player, and scammed by another national of their faction, for now, perhaps scamming amongst nationals should be expressly forbidden?

Not to mention the game is not in a 'released' format.  During testing I take scamming of this nature as counterproductive to building the game not to mention the community.  Once the game launches you could go all hardcore every-captain-for-themselves.  But right now there is a serious disconnect between the captain levels and the supply of high level crafters who can provide ships. 

 

The main reason stated is they cannot allocate resources to police this type of behavior.

IF that is the case, they SHOULD ethically revisit the policy of allowing people to 'reroll' a new identity without any practical loss.

[DragonfireActual]

This kind of situation is far more easily avoided here than it were in EVE. In EVE I rarely did commission builds but when I did I would build the ship knowing it'll sell on the open market if the buyer backs out and that was in the face of extremely fierce penny and dime economic throat cutting,every avenue was open to have your Corp/Alliance cut off,your freighters butchered and your production arrays blasted as production is under way and  hangars full of expensive prints and components lost.

 

This game is at the moment very simple,to avoid being ripped off one has only to agree to trade a complete hull in exchange for production materials/crafting notes. If the builder cannot or will not build on commission with the understanding material compensation is made during the trade of complete hull then you're dealing with poor business practice. Exceptional hulls ALWAYS sell,demand is high to say the least making it a builders market. There is no valid excuse for requiring material up front.

[Duskguy]

I build ships for USA players on PVP 2 for a small fee if they provide mats and notes, comes to about 10-15 gold per labor hour. I'm well known as a ship builder and doing this, so unfortunately the only thing I can say is ask around before trusting a random ship builder.

As for this being allowed by the devs...I'm sorry, but I get 7 day chat banned for excessive cursing/dirty jokes because it's disrespectful and doesn't fit with the time period, but this is ok? There is something wrong with that logic.

Scamming of this sort both breaks the game and shows far more disrespect than dirty words in chat. And it does not fit with the time period as thieves and scam artists tended to get hunted down or have bounties placed on them (I'd like to eventually see a bounty system for cross faction/same faction).

If we have devs and player moderators checking and acting on chat behaviour, there should be no reason this sort of thing cannot be policed.

[Quineloe]

If we have devs and player moderators checking and acting on chat behaviour, there should be no reason this sort of thing cannot be policed.

 

Exactly. You have volunteers handing out 7 day chat bans, surely the same guys can resolve these incidents as well.

[admin]

Exactly. You have volunteers handing out 7 day chat bans, surely the same guys can resolve these incidents as well.

 

Reading chat while playing is easy.

Handling scamming cases? What if it is fabricated?

Don't trust strangers. Why would you trust a stranger? 

Trade interface provides accept button. Don't accept the deal if it is not to your liking. Press cancel.

 

We are willing to change the global rules, but scamming is very hard to prove.  I can tell he scammed me after any deal, creating even more scams.

[Captain Alexander]

Reading chat while playing is easy.

Handling scamming cases? What if it is fabricated?

Don't trust strangers. Why would you trust a stranger? 

Trade interface provides accept button. Don't accept the deal if it is not to your liking. Press cancel.

 

We are willing to change the global rules, but scamming is very hard to prove.  I can tell he scammed me after any deal, creating even more scams.

 

Apparently this case is very obvious and by taking actions against those TRR guys would just show that Admins are against cheating/scamming. Would also proof that scammers can't get away without consequences

[admin]

Apparently this case is very obvious and by taking actions against those TRR guys would just show that Admins are against cheating/scamming. Would also proof that scammers can't get away without consequences

 

It is obvious stealing but is not in the rule set right now.  

We use a roman law system and if this case is deemed actionable by the community we will update the rules because of this case.

 

For the future cases the problem is that tribunals like that give false hope to other people who were scammed.

Here Lt Dean made a mistake that he confirmed he stole the assets. Other might not be so careless. They might say nothing - then from the system perspective it will just look like a normal trade where you willingly gave your assets to someone you don't know. Now to prove that the screen with LtDean is not fabricated we have to find the logs. 

 

Doing that in every case will  slow development down. It might requires a specialized guy or even a team because if this happens often = all cases might need verification because they all look like normal trades. And scammers will try to report legitimate crafters as scammers. For example, you trade with someone - he give you resources and then reports you as scammer secretly - we will have to investigate and it is impossible to prove if you are a scammer or not without investing long hours into log research.

 

This case is also one of the reason why still no clan warehouse. 

Don't trust anyone and you can always press cancel when you don't like the deal.

 

We are against scamming but we gave players all the tools to not trust people (all trades must be accepted or done through the market). Perhaps not enough tools.

Question to everyone (including the tribunal reporter) is how do we stop this without reports - how do we prevent it by design?

[Lord Roberts]

We NEED a clan warehouse, being scammed is something that can happen and there are ways to avoid it, 1. don't trust strangers. 2. Only let those you trust with the warehouse access. Not having a warehouse because it can be scammed is silly, every other MMO has it and every other MMO has scammers and it's not against the rules it's just morally a asshole thing to do.

[Tomms123]

It will be really hard to stop this by any game mechanic as there will always be a way around this due to the direct trade. Only way to stop these sort of scams is to remove the direct trade and that would be a big step back as its used to make deals in trade between two players. Is to give gold, ships , materials etc to players. It's also to help people to craft (I use it to help crafters by crafting their material so they can produce more ships faster).

 

So if you want to be certain to stop these scams the only way is to remove the option for it to be able to do so and that is the direct trade between players which make it possible.

 

Edit: Grammer 

Edited March 6, 2016 by Tomms123