Alliances - final design

[Snoggy]

So with port battles no longer an option, and the nations doubling in size.

 

 

What's there for pirates to do? fish?

[ajffighter86]

So with port battles no longer an option, and the nations doubling in size.

 

 

What's there for pirates to do? fish?

 

You could try piracy.

 

EDIT: A question like this deserves a little bit more in-depth of a response than the snarky comment I offered. I apologize.

 

Let me tell you the story of PVP2, my first days of really giving open world a try, during early access steam release last winter, and my first and last attempt with the pirate faction.

 

I went to create my account. I read the descriptions. Interesting, pirates is something like "This is gonna be brutally hard. Good luck". A bit of background: I'm the kind of guy who gets a new game and immediately sets the difficulty to the hardest setting possible, because I absolutely LOVE the challenge.

 

I load up into Mortimer town, set out into the bay in my basic cutter, and lo and behold!, there's hundreds of pirates sailing around all named things like 'jack sparrow' etc etc. In other words, it turns out pirates wasn't different or challenging at all, it was simply the 'cool' faction to be. In fact there were sooooo many players in the pirate faction, it was anything but 'difficult' as the description suggested. I was surrounded by a bunch of 'wanna-be's' and pretenders who numbered more than the mighty British navy.

 

Not long into my early days as a pirate, I found myself surrounded by strange pirates who wanted to do nothing but fight robots to grind up to 1st rates, and capture deep water ports, and 'pick sides' in the loosely player-made alliances we had on PVP2. In other words, I was sailing with national-players, falsely claiming the title of 'pirates'. I was considering putting the game down, until I noticed the French on that server were getting pummeled to death by my zerg nation of pirates, who decided that instead of staying in the Bahamas to fight the USA (the other zerg faction on the server), they were gonna just sail to the southeast corner of the map and continue grinding up to first rates, true pirates that they were, and all.

 

But I noticed something about the French. There was one port, a shallow water port in the southeast corner of the map, that they refused to give up. (Pedernales?) Day in, and day out, every day of the week, the pirates launched attack after attack, but could not break the defenses of the French on PVP2 at that defiant little port. No one thought they would have held out for as long as they did. French ports were burning all around them, but Pedernales never fell. It was glorious, and earned them the respect of even their enemies. See, the "pirates", so eager to fight predictable robots to rank up and be able to sail the big ships, had mostly never learned the basics of sailing, and all of their battles until that point were won solely because they brought more, bigger ships to the fight. They simply had no skills. The "pirates" of PVP 2 were in every regard, pretenders. FAKES. FRAUDS.

 

However, the French had been PVP'ing for most of the Antilles campaign, because their existence depended upon it. They had no safe places to run missions. They did not have the time to go off to some far corner of the map and grind up. And day by day, they were being pushed into a corner, as the pirates had the numbers to hit 2 or 3 ports per day and the French had no hope of fending off the attacks. Yet, when the pirates had to face them with equal rated ships, in equal numbers, in that shallow water port, the pirates were massacred, each and every time. The French were simply better sailors, and unquestionably deserved every victory they achieved.

 

Right along that time, a pirate clan called OMG, many of whom were thoroughly disappointed as I was to find that the pirate nation was not challenging at all, decided one day that they were gonna re-roll to the French side, and I didn't hesitate to join them (no easy task considering there is no amnesty in the game, and it took forever for us to trade off our gold and materials so we could delete and recreate a new French character).

 

But you know what?

 

I found my piracy play-style among the French. We had no hope of winning. We thought we'd all be wiped out within a few days. The other "pirates" we left behind had insulted OMG and called us traitors (and sometimes they called us traders (sic)). They called us the red-wedding pirates, lol. We were labeled KOS.

 

But pirates we were, and as pirates we played. We popped out of every free port in the lesser Antilles and smacked the unsuspecting pirates where they least expected us to strike. We moved around. We were unpredictable. I felt more like a pirate than ever before. Within a week, the pirates started disappearing. Not all of them, but certainly the ones who simply wanted an "Easy" life as a pirate eventually just quit playing. Good riddance. We even trolled the French a bit. (I mean, a pirate's gotta have a little fun with the nationals, right?)

 

We, a single clan of pirates, working with a determined, small French faction, broke the will of an entire, massive Nation of "pirates."

 

And that is what pirates should be striving to achieve as a pirate in this game, instead of worrying about what will happen to your resource farms.

 

Just gonna drop this here, because, damn, those were the good 'ole days. Sadly, my clan evaporated along the time that TC's The Division came out, and stopped playing NA. I had to build a new life on PVP1. Some of our French friends came over to the server from PVP2 as well, but they've all scattered to the winds. Legend has it, they are still out there, sailing, trolling superior nations, from whatever faction they play as. True pirates.

 

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/11324-pvp-2-french-negotiations/?hl=french+diplomacy#entry200810

Edited August 3, 2016 by ajffighter86

[admin]

How? You stated each nation had to be top choice to become an ally. There is only one top choice per week right? Week one France and Denmark pick each other as top choice. Week two Denmark and Sweden picks each other as top choice, does this break the alliance with France for Denmark since both nations must be top choice? 

 

 

alliance lasts longer than 1 week

that means you sign one alliance in week one

and another one in week two

so by end of week 2 you will have two alliances

[Mrdoomed]

What on earth does a fair diplomatic system has to do with testers anyway? All Im saying is that one vote is most fair for all. But I know Im up against a dedicated player-group that somehow feels they are more important or need some extra benefits than the rest of us. Even though they paid the same!

The whole idea that we should have "national leaders" is upsetting for most, Im sure... Please devs - think this over!!!

Um duh. We are testing thier diplomacy idea. Seems pretty simple to me.

From your past post it seems you havea hard time fitting in with groups and definitely hate being told what to do so i understand you hostility toward people sharing a common idea that goes against yours but tjat is why we are TESTING this to see how it works.

Perhaps total chaos is the best way to go and you are right bit how abut we TEST the system before getting hysterical?

[Jerome]

Does anyone else see the irony of a pirate asking how he is going to make money and gather materials?

I swear the current mechanics have corrupted any concept of what it means to be a real pirate.

Yes. I will rejoice when all of the fake pirates go somewhere else.

[Snoggy]

You could try piracy.

 

 

Then make us pirates, and not just a nerfed nation.

[Hethwill]

You can sign 1 alliance per week

but you can have 2 (or maybe 3) nations in an alliance

 

but we do indeed need to handle the case when all nations pick on one enemy and form a mega alliance

 

and i think 2 alliance limit handles it. 

 

to be able to have a block all of them have to cross sign alliances

for example

france must have an alliance with sweden

sweden must have an alliance with england

and england must have an alliance with france to have a block

 

Every two weeks there must a be a vote to renew the alliances/wars/peace with each nation right ? Unless I misunderstood.

[Powderhorn]

Let us not put the cart before the horse here.  Yes, people want changes to pirate mechanics.  You can't have everything all at once.  Please allow the developers to actually develop the game incrementally, as you signed up for, instead of expecting a finished product yesterday.  Please don't try to burn the world down just because you might have to wait.

[Isink A Lot]

alliance lasts longer than 1 week

that means you sign one alliance in week one

and another one in week two

so by end of week 2 you will have two alliances

You answered while I was editing the following, can you answer these questions?

 

And just what are the other 4 nation states to your nation if they are neither the chosen ally or enemy? What can you do against them, take ports? Open world pvp only? enter their ports? France and Denmark allies week one, what are the Dutch, Brits, Spain, and US in relation to France?

 

Week one:

                 France vote ally Denmark enemy England

                 Denmark vote ally France enemy England

                 England vote ally US enemy Spain

                 US vote ally England enemy France

                 Spain vote ally Denmark enemy England

                 Dutch vote ally Sweden enemy Denmark

                 Sweden vote ally Dutch enemy Spain

Week one results

                 Alliances are France/Denmark; England/US; Dutch/Sweden with Spain with no allies because their top choice was not top choice of other nation?

                Enemies France, Denmark, & Spain enemy to England; US & France are enemies; England & Sweden enemy to Spain; Dutch are enemy to Denmark.

 

Does this make France/Denmark+Spain enemies to Sweden/Dutch and England/US? What is England & US's relation to Sweden & Dutch? What is France/Denmark relation to Spain? Can they take ports, can they enter their ports, can they enter thier PB's, open world pvp only, what can they do or not do to each other? Does the enemy of your ally also become your enemy in effect giving you the potential of having two enemies voted each round?

[Twig]

 

Week one

1. France picked Sweden as a top ally choice (picking denmark as enemy)
2. Sweden picked France as a top ally choice (picking great britain as enemy)

 

Bad example, this is maybe the only alliance that will never happen in this game

[Aphilas]

 

 

but we do indeed need to handle the case when all nations pick on one enemy and form a mega alliance

 

and i think 2 alliance limit handles it. 

 

 

It kind of doesn't, at least with as much as has been revealed to us so far. Example:

 

US, Britain and Dutch are allies.

Denmark, France and Sweden are allies.

 

Both blocks decide to focus Spain who has no allies.

 

It is similar to what has been going on PvP1 with US, Britain, Dutch and Sweden being allied/friendly. The presented system does not remove likelyhood of zerg blocks from multiple nations emerging, it simply gives opportunity for such blocks to assist each other in PBs. In other words, not only it doesn't solve the issue, but it makes it bigger. Unless, of course, there are planned systems that you are not ready to reveal to address such things.

Edited August 3, 2016 by Aphilas

[Skully]

You could try piracy.

No, we can not: http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/15472-pirate-pirate-free-for-all-battles/

We were forced to become a Nation and now we should reverse it.

Been there, doesn't work, there goes the rest of your story down the drain.

A bit of a bummer, could have been a good story.

[fox2run]

Um duh. We are testing thier diplomacy idea. Seems pretty simple to me.

From your past post it seems you havea hard time fitting in with groups and definitely hate being told what to do so i understand you hostility toward people sharing a common idea that goes against yours but tjat is why we are TESTING this to see how it works.

Perhaps total chaos is the best way to go and you are right bit how abut we TEST the system before getting hysterical?

 

I do not have a hard time fitting into groups. I have a hard time to buy a game that has flaws which again is being exploited by small dictators taking over command of a nation I play! Its just - not ok.

[Skully]

I do not have a hard time fitting into groups. I have a hard time to buy a game that has flaws which again is being exploited by small dictators taking over command of a nation I play! Its just - not ok.

Likewise you can not dictate the workings of a nation.

Why are you in a Nation? Go Pirate.

[ajffighter86]

Been there, doesn't work, there goes the rest of your story down the drain.

A bit of a bummer, could have been a good story.

 

Aren't you the one who is trying to open a business making health kits? Notorious pirate/doctor?

 

I can't take it any more. I'm out of this thread.

 

Real pirates:

 

o7, see you in game.

 

The rest of you can walk the plank.

 

The major problem with every nation in the game is that eventually, tides turn. At some point, weak nations become stronger, and things get boring again for those seeking a real challenge. All I ask, is that we have one faction, just one faction, that never gets easy. And SORRY, but many of us feel that it should be the pirate faction.

 

You'd even be surprised to find that there are national players such as myself who would eagerly join the pirates if it simply felt more challenging, and I hope the developers can continue to make so crushingly hard to play as a pirate, that only the fewest and the proudest (and perhaps the craziest) have earned the right to sail under the skull and crossbones.

Edited August 3, 2016 by ajffighter86

[akd]

Give pirates then some unique abilities to make it more fun. Now you can play act like pirate playing any other nation.

If trade / RvR related, then I agree. No magic combat or OS maneuver / engagement advantages, however.

I'd particularly like to see pirate groups be able to set up pirate "nests" with very basic port functions (buy / sell, repair and consumables production) on a coastline wherever they want.

[fox2run]

Likewise you can not dictate the workings of a nation.

Why are you in a Nation? Go Pirate.

 

I am being critizised a lot becourse I like to play the game as it is made - not what a SMALL group of self-pronounced leaders would like me to play.

 

I simply cant understand why you make such a fuzz about it. Even less so, as I think that all customers derserve an equal vote as they actually are buyers of the game. In all other places than here - I would be on the right side of things.

 

But here the arguments have been put upside down. Maybe less than 10% of the player base is involved in the diplo-stuff and yet the guys who are involved in this - like to rule things - AND in a way that goes against the game-mechanics. And in order to do this, they use all kind of arguments from "join the pirates", "low-IQ", "cant fit into groups" to "why are you in a nation".

 

IM JUST PLAYING THE GAME AS I BOUGHT IT!

 

THAT IS ALL THAT SIMPLE!

 

Am I the only one here that find it very weird that a group of players tries to drag their own, private RvR - TS - diplomacy down on our others heads?

Edited August 3, 2016 by fox2run

[admin]

he presented system does not remove likelyhood of zerg blocks from multiple nations emerging, it simply gives opportunity for such blocks to assist each other in PBs. In other words, not only it doesn't solve the issue, but it makes it bigger. Unless, of course, there are planned systems that you are not ready to reveal to address such things.

 

 

The purpose of politics is to give players tools to enforce what they agreed on on forums/chats/voicecomms 

If zerg blocks emerge and will be enforced by game systems = it is a good thing. 

Weaker counties will join one of the blocks: The republic of Palau joined the coalition against Iraq. 

[Twig]

Let us all be reasonable the most unlikely alliance is France/British

 

On topic I have only two concerns the first is 2 allies is not enough the second is that 3 allies is too many

 

Thank the lord I am not a coder or Britain would have all the advantages

 

I can assure you, you are wrong. The grudge the sweden holds against french will never bring us together again. That is something the brits will not be able to compare with.

 

To the beloved pirates in this threat:

- Your choice were wrong! Your heads will decorate our ships figurheads!

Edited August 3, 2016 by Twig

[Twig]

We will have to agree to disagree

 

Well at least we can agree that france is not to be trusted

[Tomms123]

ARE YOU GOING TO INTRODUCE NEW PIRATE MECHANIC? Or Pirates will me nerfed nation for the time between alliances patch and pirate patch ?

Pirates are not a nation that is how its.

The pirates will get their share when its ready to do so (look on the roadmap http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/14640-devlog-forthcoming-content-patches-plan/ )

 

This time its not the time for pirates as we know of, so jump on the ship and count to 100 and then lets wait for the patch to hit. But in the meantime we can discuss how this proposed system is looking without bringing the pirates into it.

[Tomms123]

With current mechanics they are a nation with pirate flag.

Thing is they're not a nation, shall not be seen upon as a nation.

Take this change as a path to making pirates actual pirates.

[Aphilas]

The purpose of politics is to give players tools to enforce what they agreed on on forums/chats/voicecomms 

If zerg blocks emerge and will be enforced by game systems = it is a good thing. 

Weaker counties will join one of the blocks: The republic of Palau joined the coalition against Iraq. 

 

Understood and respect to you for an unusual game design decision. Games would be boring if all were the same:)

 

 

However, this contradics your other quote=P

 

You can sign 1 alliance per week

but you can have 2 (or maybe 3) nations in an alliance

 

but we do indeed need to handle the case when all nations pick on one enemy and form a mega alliance

 

and i think 2 alliance limit handles it.

 

 

On a side note - since expanation only offers info about alliances... What is your opinion on allowing to increase threat/make PBs only on enemies voted by the nation and limiting those same way as alliances? That way you would have a clear line between ally - OW PvP - PB warfare?

Edited August 3, 2016 by Aphilas

[Isink A Lot]

The questions I have which have not been answered is are these:

 

1. Does the ally of your ally become your ally?

2. Does the enemy of your ally become your enemy?

3. What can you do against nations that are neither your ally or your declared enemy, for example, can you enter their ports? Can you auto enter their battles? Can you buy flags against them? Open world pvp only? What are those limits?

 

Can all the rule sets for how a nation votes be listed in regards to how all the other nations vote so we can see if we can poke holes in it?

Edited August 3, 2016 by Isink A Lot

[VonVolks]

Seriously why all the pirate crying???

 

Pirates players can still form alliances. just not OFFICAL GAME ones. You can fight everyone. And that means you can also agree with nations to NOT fight people.

 

This official alliance mechanic simulates "word from the crown" telling nationals what to do and what not to do. Pirates dont get told what to do by anyone. 

 

This is all as it should be.