Ramming

[Captain Black]

Hello Captains,

 

 

I'm really enjoying the game but I'm not satisfied with the fact that people take to ramming you because it's an easy sink in all cases, I'm sorry but it should be very hard to sink a ship by ramming it. 

 

Six players in my last battle rammed and sunk a player deliberately and I think this should be punished, to just come into a player battle and ram them straight away is such a pathetic way of playing the game. Its a naval combat game and that usually means to fight it out but the danish group we just encountered decided to ram almost everyone and then run away. I don't like this aspect of the game seeing as it's obviously exploits a part of the game that almost all of the time results in sinking a player.

 

Please change the ramming damage, because ramming a ship in those days would have done minimal damage and was often used prior to boarding a vessel as the rigging would often tangle and hold both ships together until separated.

 

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

Hello Captains,

 

 

I'm really enjoying the game but I'm not satisfied with the fact that people take to ramming you because it's an easy sink in all cases, I'm sorry but it should be very hard to sink a ship by ramming it. 

 

Six players in my last battle rammed and sunk a player deliberately and I think this should be punished, to just come into a player battle and ram them straight away is such a pathetic way of playing the game. Its a naval combat game and that usually means to fight it out but the danish group we just encountered decided to ram almost everyone and then run away. I don't like this aspect of the game seeing as it's obviously exploits a part of the game that almost all of the time results in sinking a player.

 

Please change the ramming damage, because ramming a ship in those days would have done minimal damage and was often used prior to boarding a vessel as the rigging would often tangle and hold both ships together until separated.

 

There's ramming, and then there's ramming.

 

The historical situation you cite wasn't one ship ramming another amidships with her bow (e.g. aim for the side of the enemy ship and run into it with every scrap of canvas flying).  This action would have caused the loss of every mast you had, and would have done mortal damage to both ships.  The common action to take when attempting to board was to come alongside and nudge up against the other ship, with the goal of tangling your bowsprit in the mainchains/shrouds of the other ship.  You didn't hit them hard, you nudged against them.

 

In the game currently, nudging against another ship doesn't cause much damage, if any.  This is correct.  Pounding another ship amidships causes tons of damage to both ships.  You may make a good argument that a Lynx ramming Surprise or Constitution (or larger) amidships likely wouldn't cause much damage to the larger ship, while stoving in the bow and likely sinking the smaller ship in short order, however, to say that ships rammed each other all the time without consequence is a completely inaccurate statement.  In the situation I just mentioned, such an impact would likely pop all of the seams in that section of hull, which would cause serious flooding at the least.  

[Captain Black]

Yes, there are consequences, but more often than not you sink but the other guy gets off free, which we saw today. 6 people. not one of them sunk as far we could see and they went on to ram more. I'm sorry but ramming is so easily exploited in this game because players of smaller nations won't fight on a fair basis and result to ramming because they know it sinks people. It is, no matter how you slice it, very much exploited.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

We'll need far more detail than that.

 

Can you please provide a detailed description of all ship types involved, where exactly they were hitting people, etc.

[Nathaniel]

Under the impressions from the Danes' tactics today (they did succesfully sink our flagcarrying constitution by chain-ramming it multiple time in a row with several frigates): i greatly admire the inventive use of tactics in that fight (considering current game rules that was surely the right thing to do) but i find the current mechanics of this problematic. Ramming should be a legitimate tactic, but surely it should harm you more than the target ship you ram. I.e. if you want to sacrifice five frigates to ram-sink a constitution that's fine, but you probably shouldn't be able to ram it with five ships, force it to sink but keep all your ships perfectly afloat and ready to fight after 20 seconds of pumping.

Edited January 6, 2016 by Nathaniel

[Prater]

We'll need far more detail than that.

 

Can you please provide a detailed description of all ship types involved, where exactly they were hitting people, etc.

 

This is very common and I've posted threads about how people can still capsize ships by ramming them.  You can easily do it on accident as well.  Yesterday I was in a Coni, I went alongside a Trader snow to force it in the wind.  It was parallel to the middle of my ship, and as I was pushing it into the wind to slow it down and board it, it capsized.  You can still easily ram any of the fore-and-aft ships in the bow and push them over easily.  You can still ram ships and keep your current speed, forcing weird situations that often result in capsizes.  Instead, when you ram, you should lose the majority of your speed.  But currently, in certain ways, you can ram the enemy ship just right and keep your current speed.  If this happens, the enemy ship becomes locked onto you, and you can push them at 10 or so knots and there is nothing they can do to get away.

 

Ramming to capsize, in my opinion, is the single most game breaking bug in the game.  I know the devs have tried to address it in the past, but it still happens.

 

Yes, keep ramming, and keep damage from the rams, but the capsizing needs to be toned down considerably still.

[Scorpio Shirica]

My first experience with a Snow was trying to board a Privateer for some gold. Unintentionally, I capsized it by hitting it just larboard of the stern... nudging to get into boarding position. It flipped upside down. I thought it was a bug, but others told me it was working as intended. 

[Prater]

I don't think it is working as intended.  Devs said it was fixed a few patches ago, but it isn't.

[AKPyrate]

Under the impressions from the Danes' tactics today (they did succesfully sink our flagcarrying constitution by chain-ramming it multiple time in a row with several frigates): i greatly admire the inventive use of tactics in that fight (considering current game rules that was surely the right thing to do) but i find the current mechanics of this problematic. Ramming should be a legitimate tactic, but surely it should harm you more than the target ship you ram. I.e. if you want to sacrifice five frigates to ram-sink a constitution that's fine, but you probably shouldn't be able to ram it with five ships, force it to sink but keep all your ships perfectly afloat and ready to fight after 20 seconds of pumping.

 

Here you see their tactic.  5 frigates each took one collision damage.  The Constitution took 5 hits, likely to amidships and possibly all on the same side.  This would probably sink the Constitution and leave the frigates floating, though likely quite damaged.  I have noticed that the bowsprits don't seem to break off as easily as they once did.  It's probably to avoid the tactic of 'cutting off someone's nose' that I've seen used before.  I know even when I've had what I thought were relatively minor collisions in my frigate (say nudging a merchant upwind), that I usually end up with at least one hole below the waterline and am taking on water.  I have to pump immediately to get it under control.  Another factor, is that each of the frigates in your situation probably used a hull repair, whereas the Constitution only had one chance to use one, and if it needed to use one early, well, that's tactics.

 

This is very common and I've posted threads about how people can still capsize ships by ramming them.  You can easily do it on accident as well.  Yesterday I was in a Coni, I went alongside a Trader snow to force it in the wind.  It was parallel to the middle of my ship, and as I was pushing it into the wind to slow it down and board it, it capsized.  You can still easily ram any of the fore-and-aft ships in the bow and push them over easily.  You can still ram ships and keep your current speed, forcing weird situations that often result in capsizes.  Instead, when you ram, you should lose the majority of your speed.  But currently, in certain ways, you can ram the enemy ship just right and keep your current speed.  If this happens, the enemy ship becomes locked onto you, and you can push them at 10 or so knots and there is nothing they can do to get away.

 

Ramming to capsize, in my opinion, is the single most game breaking bug in the game.  I know the devs have tried to address it in the past, but it still happens.

 

Yes, keep ramming, and keep damage from the rams, but the capsizing needs to be toned down considerably still.

 

Here I'd say the Constitution has much more mass than a small trader.  It shouldn't slow the Constitution much at all.  Constitution is about 1500 tons.  Many merchants of the day were 300-400 tons, with the exception of Indiamen which currently aren't depicted in game.  Realistically, brigs and snows that are depicted for merchants would be in the range of 200 tons.  So, 1500 tons vs. 200 tons...okay, a bit more than a fly hitting a windshield on the freeway, but not enough to stop the Constitution, even if some rigging theoretically was tangled (and that would most likely have snapped cordage and spars if the speed differential was too great-and the immense size difference between the two vessels would also reduce the risk that rigging would even get entangled).  Also, I don't think that it should harm you more than the target ship, as the bow is usually the strongest part of the vessel.  Realistically, if you hit a vessel nearly head on to their beam, they'll be hurting much more than you.  However, both would sure be hurting if of equatable size.

 

I don't think it is working as intended.  Devs said it was fixed a few patches ago, but it isn't.

 

It's better than it was, but could do with some improvement.

[Captain Black]

This is the issue though, because it yields such results players now jump straight to ramming a player, and seize to play the game. yes it is a valid tactic but in a game where players choose that over playing the game as intended surely makes the naval action mute.

[Mighty_Alex]

Hello Captains,

 

 

I'm really enjoying the game but I'm not satisfied with the fact that people take to ramming you because it's an easy sink in all cases, I'm sorry but it should be very hard to sink a ship by ramming it. 

 

Six players in my last battle rammed and sunk a player deliberately and I think this should be punished, to just come into a player battle and ram them straight away is such a pathetic way of playing the game. Its a naval combat game and that usually means to fight it out but the danish group we just encountered decided to ram almost everyone and then run away. I don't like this aspect of the game seeing as it's obviously exploits a part of the game that almost all of the time results in sinking a player.

 

Please change the ramming damage, because ramming a ship in those days would have done minimal damage and was often used prior to boarding a vessel as the rigging would often tangle and hold both ships together until separated.

Let's say, I'm just baffled by "tottally unbiased" account of events from this gentleman. All frigates sustained severe leaks and damages ramming this Constitution, my frigate just quickly sank after this collision. And I'll tell whats pathetic, that nation with most players complains the most about everything that doesn't benefit them. Did we sink your entire fleet yesterday by ramming? No. It was one Constitution carrying the flag that sank after a collision with 5 frigates. Then how on Earth this tactic is pathetic?

[AKPyrate]

This is the issue though, because it yields such results players now jump straight to ramming a player, and seize to play the game. yes it is a valid tactic but in a game where players choose that over playing the game as intended surely makes the naval action mute.

 

Well here we have the dilemma... Realism (ie realistic damage to vessels if/when they collide-for this reason I'm always wary of my AI fleet when attacking) vs. game playing.  People don't want this to be arcadey (myself included), and want it as realistic as possible.  This includes the damage to vessels involved in collisions, whether friendly or enemies.  However, we aren't concerned with possibly losing a ship and our lives (real lives, not just a character).  That's what really would prevent this tactic in real life during this era.  However, as a naval tactic, ramming has a long history and thus is actually a valid tactic.  Sacrificing ships was done during this era as well, most notably fire-ships.  Additionally, focusing on one strategic enemy ship is realistic; often there would be a focus on the enemy's flagship.  So while this is not exactly the kind of playing we would generally like to see, it's a catch 22 as far as what to do about it.  Either decrease the realism, deal with this tactic by evolving other tactics.

 

Now one possible partial solution that I could see is that if you lose your ship, you are ported to the nearest friendly town, and your ship either goes to the port of departure or to the capitol (possibly with some sort of cooldown before it appears, minus a durability of course).  That way you need to either use up your teleport, if available, or buy a free/cheap small vessel and spend time getting back to one of your outposts where you might have a bigger vessel.  I could also see implementing this 'penalty' for losing a ship after a certain rank, to avoid undue grief to new players.  Just a musing...

[Prater]

Here I'd say the Constitution has much more mass than a small trader.  It shouldn't slow the Constitution much at all.  Constitution is about 1500 tons.  Many merchants of the day were 300-400 tons, with the exception of Indiamen which currently aren't depicted in game.  Realistically, brigs and snows that are depicted for merchants would be in the range of 200 tons.  So, 1500 tons vs. 200 tons...okay, a bit more than a fly hitting a windshield on the freeway, but not enough to stop the Constitution, even if some rigging theoretically was tangled (and that would most likely have snapped cordage and spars if the speed differential was too great-and the immense size difference between the two vessels would also reduce the risk that rigging would even get entangled).  Also, I don't think that it should harm you more than the target ship, as the bow is usually the strongest part of the vessel.  Realistically, if you hit a vessel nearly head on to their beam, they'll be hurting much more than you.  However, both would sure be hurting if of equatable size.

 

 

In the example I gave, the coni and trader snow never collided.  They bumped sides together and I was able to capsize it just by being broadside to broadside with it.

 

The part with the slowing down is, you cannot crash into another object and keep going the same speed if it continues to exist and has decent mass.  Also, currently you can maintain your speed for minutes with the ship there, and you can even speed up if you weren't going the full speed.  These are acting like tanks made out of steel with engines, not sailing boats made out of wood and propelled by the wind.  If you have ever experienced this happening, you will know it is a broken mechanic.  Ram any ship with your bow at their stern quarter going full sail and see what happens.

[Diceman]

Note to self...

Ram Captain Black if ever encountered in a fight.

[Prater]

There is also the tactic of causing someone to ram you.

[Scorpio Shirica]

Or when they implement crew/ officers, there's a chance that your own crew/ officers die when you ram. That way it's a realistic way to balance it, isn't that why ships during this time avoided ramming anyway? The damage they could do to their own rigging, cannons and crew? 

[Diceman]

i am disliking this whole ramming thing (and i have done it myself)

I am wanting to play in a manner that reflects the grand age of sail, not the era grecian/roman galleys with bronze rams on their prows

solution: rammed ship receives only 5-10% of the damage that the 'rammer' gets - if rammer is ramming at a speed above 5 knots he sinks - end of problem

EDIT - i guess then the folks who like to twist game mechanics to their advantage would sail their ships in front of the enemy thus causing an 'innocent' to involuntarily become a rammer - so scratch my suggestion as a potential solution - am still TOTALLY against ramming being used as it is currently

I disagree with your arguments 100%.

Ramming is a valuable and useful tactic.

You can remove the opponents bowsprit which on a fast fore aft rigged ship would be a death sentence in a melee type battle which most port battles evolve into...

You can "steer" an opponent off the stern of a SOL preventing a crippling rake.

You can "hold" an enemy in a position allowing teammates to punish him for his mistaken idea that he deserves your port more than you do...

And sometimes your blood is up but your guns aren't reloaded and won't be for many seconds because you're on survival mode... Why let them just sail on past??!! Tra-la-la... No sir!

"Grand age of sail" he says... It's grand to be ganked??? There is plenty of low behavior and actions that are allowed in this game that are far less than "Grand".

I suppose you think that if I am beat I should just give up and let you and your buddies pound me??? I will ram you and if I'm sinking, I'll board you. Even if you've ten times my crew... to the last moment I will fight!

[SKurj.]

This one can't end well, in the age of multiple duras and cheap ships...

 

Concessions will need to be made and this maybe one of them... 

[Kaaru62]

I like ramming ships that are on their way down, its fun. sometimes though, ramming does not go the way you plan. yesterday I was in a shallow water port battle with a Privateer, i saw a player that was shot up and half flooded. i was in position and had good speed so I figured I would hasten his sinking. I hit, rolled over, and capsized in about 10 seconds.

 

its the third time ive capsized myself trying to have "fun" with ramming.

 

 

[TommyShelby]

Currently when ramming you receive a bunch of "leaks" which function like a leak made from a penetrating shot, except the leak's produced by ramming are worse and let more water in. The leaking effect is rather easy to negate by going to survival mode. 

This means that you can ram someone and as long as you stay on Survival mode you will be totally fine. This in return means that we have situations like the one mentioned in the beginning of this thread.

 

Perhaps a solution would be to make ramming not only cause leaks, but also cause actual damage to the "planking"/"Structural integrity" so to speak. (I still have a hard time not calling them for HP bars ).

 

The reason why i think this might be a solution is because the damage done to planking/structural integrity is permanent where as the leaks aren't. 

[Ronald Speirs]

Howdy all

 

Seems to me that lately there has been a lot of dogs out there that just want to attack and ram players in better ships, not sure if that a good way to promote the game and wanted to see the community view on it, personally i think these players don't play the game in the spirit it should be, its all about skill and tactics, maybe the ramming damage and leaks should be toned down to stop these tactics being used by the cheap and sad poor excuses of players that think its fun to do, but hey that's just my opinion, not sure if anyone else hate people doing it but its become abit of a joke at times and its draws away from the actual reason this game was created, Naval Action experience not demolition derby!!!!

 

Cheers

[William the Drake]

Ramming that causes damage does need to be a mechanic; I don't want to end up like PotBS where ramming someone simply meant impeding their movement. 
 

• Ship Collisions- In PotBS, colliding ships was a simple love-bump that at the best would simply have a "thud" sound effect, and at worst might simply knock you off your course. No damage. In Naval Action, ship collisions can be deadly. Collisions can result in large amounts of damage, loss of masts, and leaks. Lots of leaks.

 

However, ramming as it currently is does need some tuning. I remember the devs addressing this by saying they will be looking into differentiating the weight of ships and how this could be used so that small(er) ships won't do "as much" damage to larger ships. This could be a decent work around, to make sure players don't turn to sacrificing smaller, cheaper ships in order to cripple much larger ships. However, when dealing with ships that are closer in rank, this may still be an issue.

[Ronald Speirs]

Yes equivalent ships should maybe be left the same so that way it shouldn't come to ramming to kill, but it would be quite silly for a few frigates to ram something like a 1st rate with 1 durability just to kill it, that where i see a problem, so i think it should be toned down between classes and how much damage they can deal maybe, so if it was the same ships it could cause serious leaks but smaller ships just maybe armor damage, then i think it will cut it out quite well.

[AtomicTiger]

i remind that ramming was a big thing earlier...

and i still think it needs to stay.

maybe small ships should get a heavier amount of damage when doing it.(the rammer himself gets the damage, while doing less to the victim)

 

maybe u just get the ramming guys :/

Edited January 9, 2016 by AtomicTiger

[Kaaru62]

would it be possible to treat ships like they are cannon rounds when it comes to calculating damage from a collision?.

 

example: say im  in a Surprise and want to ram a Victory. I get my Surprise up to speed and collide. the game calculates the energy from the speed/mass of my ship and the mass of the Victory and applies it both to my bow as well as the Victory's side ( or wherever the impact is ).

 

seems to me that would involve a lot more energy than cannon rounds for calculating damage.