Ramming

[Captain Black]

Diceman,

 

It would seem from all your arguing about keeping it as is, suggests that you yourself use this tactic as many of my fellow captains here are describing. Jumping into battle, the enemy is preparing their ships to move in line Oh look... A daft idiot moron of a player has decided to smash into the side of a bigger ship with his pittiful one to sink it before it can wipe the floor with him, therefore negating the idea of the game, yes it's valid and was used, but I doubt captains of that era did such stupid things. 

 

I want to play this game as it was intended, and we all do, you'll see no member of the SLRN behave in such a manor as to take away peoples enjoyment of the game, why? Because we want to go into a battle and give it our all in ship vs ship combat, not pay for the game for it to suddenly turn into the 1800's demolition derby, or the 1800's circus bumper cars.

 

You argue with us, but fail to give a suitable answer as to why this feature should stay as it is. It needs changing so damage/ leaks are varied between the size, mass and speed of the ships involved, and the devs need to make a point of emphasizing the fact that this game is NOT a ram and sink, it's naval action, the best naval game we've seen for a good long time and I hope they keep it that way, not let people without skill and sense to ruin it for everyone else. 

Edited January 10, 2016 by Captain Black

[Scorpio Shirica]

And don't say SLRN are against it because ramming somehow counters large guilds. Anyone who knows TEST, GOONSWARM, etc. will know ramming is easy for large guilds due to large numbers able to throw away vast quantities of cheap stuff. Truth is, ramming is a fun mechanic, but highly exploitable as shown by these guys tossing their ships against the flag carrier. 

[Diceman]

Diceman,

It would seem from all your arguing about keeping it as is, suggests that you yourself use this tactic as many of my fellow captains here are describing. Jumping into battle, the enemy is preparing their ships to move in line Oh look... A daft idiot moron of a player has decided to smash into the side of a bigger ship with his pittiful one to sink it before it can wipe the floor with him, therefore negating the idea of the game, yes it's valid and was used, but I doubt captains of that era did such stupid things.

I want to play this game as it was intended, and we all do, you'll see no member of the SLRN behave in such a manor as to take away peoples enjoyment of the game, why? Because we want to go into a battle and give it our all in ship vs ship combat, not pay for the game for it to suddenly turn into the 1800's demolition derby, or the 1800's circus bumper cars.

You argue with us, but fail to give a suitable answer as to why this feature should stay as it is. It needs changing so damage/ leaks are varied between the size, mass and speed of the ships involved, and the devs need to make a point of emphasizing the fact that this game is NOT a ram and sink, it's naval action, the best naval game we've seen for a good long time and I hope they keep it that way, not let people without skill and sense to ruin it for everyone else.

Insults from such an "HONORABLE" Captain... Tsk, Tsk!!

As much as you want to think everything in these battles is orderly, organized, and honorable. The truth is they generally evolve into very close knife fight type battles and I'm sure such an experienced and skilled captain as yourself can understand when these large, not very maneuverable ships get into such close quarters rams will occur.

Not one single person has provided ANY data supporting the assertion that one ship suffers more from Ramming than another. Zero evidence other than butt hurt assertions stating claims of massive damage and flooding caused to the largest ship in this game caused by ships half its size at best, while those smaller ships received little more than scratched paint. I call BS to those statements.

Maybe Admin could provide some data supporting these arguments???

My assertion has all along been that I believe the Devs have modeled ram damage just as well as they have damage from gunfire.

Back in sea trials when you would lose a bowsprit from a rub and everyone cried for buffed masts... Well... you got what you asked for.

As for ramming as a tactic that the Honorable British will never use... Strange that earlier this morning in the battles outside Cayo de Sal I was rammed by a Brit player who was on fire with the clear intention to do damage and catch me on fire...

Additionally, several other Brit players threw themselves at myself and other US players trying to protect the flag carrier forcing ram situations. Very honorable???

Do I come on here and cry about it? Nope.

Did I file a tribunal on it? Nope.

Do I scream for the game to be changed so my precious ship is not damaged or sunk? Nope.

I understand that it is part of the game.

It was a fun battle!!

Finally, I would like to SALUTE those intrepid Captains who on the fly adapted their tactics to discover a way to bring down the toughest ship in the game. They inflicted a severe hurt to the enemy and forced him to change tactics that will undoubtedly cost him more resources as now the most dominating ship in this game requires an escort...

[Diceman]

Fireships have crews suitable for their operation. Most served as ordinary brigs, sloops or other light escorts for much of their life. Relatively few were expended as fireships.

When used as fireships, they have reduced armament, and crew suited to navigating into the target roads. This represents around half the normal escort crew, and around one third to one quarter of the guns normally fitted.

Only after the vessel was irrevocably committed to passage through and collision with enemy vessels would the crew set the fire and subsequently abandon ship.

Well, currently there is no mechanic in the game to have fireships. So we must adapt and create our own.

Why should a ship that is burning out of control go to waste?? This is an opportunity to inflict a huge injury to the other fleet and totally disrupt their formation and battle plan. Put thatburning ship to use I say!!!!

[Prater]

A fantasy age of sail game http://store.steampowered.com/app/418180/for those who like fantasy

 

Let's take the fantasy out of Naval Action and remove such an invalid, cheap, and unsportsmanlike tactic of ramming to sink and capsize.  Let's get back to the Age of Sail and not AC Black Flag or Tempest or Ancient Naval Warfare.

[Xoosch]

How about a Cooldown, once you got rammed you receive non or less Damage from ramming for, let's say 10 minutes. That should at least adress and prevent Chain Ramming. It's not realistic true. But 5 Captains risking their Ships and the live of theit crew by ramming another Ship one after another isn't realistic either.

[Captain Black]

And this is our point, the tactic was used, but now players know the result they jump straight to it and so it should be dealt with. 

 

They remove the fun from the game, I refuse to play games I used to love because companies ruin the game by keeping aspects about it in, that eventually take the game from original purpose. Call of duty, with their we'll save the genre by adding halo jump, is one prime example. 

 

The point is the game hasn't even reached full release and already it's losing its identity as a naval combat game. If you want to ram stuff go get a girlfriend and leave the gaming to people who actual know what it means to play a game according to its intended purpose.

Edited January 11, 2016 by Captain Black

[Prater]

Can anyone give an instance where captains, during the late 1700s and early 1800s, rammed other ships on purpose to cause damage, sink, or capsize the enemy? What about frigates capsizing other frigates?

[SKurj.]

due to unlimited free captured ships, and cheap frigates there is very little risk in ramming a larger ship in an attempt to take it out of the fight. 

[Diceman]

You people are playing a game with other people on the Internet and you expect this not to occur???

This type of play is going to happen in a multiplayer game...

This right now is nothing!!!

And it's only going to increase when the floodgates open and you have packs of drunk people on teamspeak chuckling it up and trying to out do each other with the most troll moves that will get big viewer hits on twitch and YouTube...

It happens now, with the limited numbers we have.

And the ganking we have.

With several of the clans we have.

It's part of the game.

Maybe you should move to the PvE server where the enemy stays a respectful distance from your ship...

[DeRuyter]

I think Diceman has a point - gamers and ppl online will get creative to win and that may not result in what we read in ship logs and accounts of naval battles in the 18th and 19th century. It is important to note that a ramming ship can go on survival and after a delay come out with relatively little damage. So right now there is little incentive not to do it. However the damage model could include the rigging damage that would really cause the rammer problems and provide for a more realistic collision model (high speed not colliding to board).

 

So Diceman - I'll just bump Mouse's post for you.

 

A full on ram of a large ship by a smaller should result in some or all of the smaller ship's masts going by the board - ships masts are designed to be strong enough to stand the strain of full sail and a fair wind. They are not strong enough to also withstand their own momentum when the ship they are attached to suddenly stops dead in the water. Add the effect of prior battle damage to masts and rigging and you can see that full-on ramming of a large by a small ship is simply ship-suicide as regards rigging

 

Mind you the two ships would then be inextricably entangled by the fallen masts

 

There are numerous accounts of ships losing their masts when going aground unexpectedly

But I have never seen any accounts of purposeful ramming of large sailing ships by small and I guess that's is because the captains know what the result would be

 

And I read all the accounts of the era that I can get my hands on

 

The damage to the target ship could be quite high but only above the waterline - due to the profile of bows of the ramming vessel.

I feel a larger target ship should lose some guns and amour but spring no leaks

[Prater]

I think Diceman has a point - gamers and ppl online will get creative to win and that may not result in what we read in ship logs and accounts of naval battles in the 18th and 19th century. It is important to note that a ramming ship can go on survival and after a delay come out with relatively little damage. So right now there is little incentive not to do it. However the damage model could include the rigging damage that would really cause the rammer problems and provide for a more realistic collision model (high speed not colliding to board).

So Diceman - I'll just bump Mouse's post for you.

Little reason to do it when you can capsize a full health frigate? Or say you are in a privateer kicking the crap out of another privateer and they just ram you to capsize you? Or how about when you are going fast enough to where to your bowsprit breaks off, and the enemy purposefully positions themselves to break your bowsprit off? Without any skill you can cause all these things and ruin a match.

@dicemen. That is the point. It happens often enough now without thousands of players so it needs to be fixed now before it is the main tactic. In fact 2-3 months ago it was the main tactic when most people were in frigates. Ram into the stern quarter and flip the possibly full health frigate over with little damage to yourself. You might even keep your bowsprit. And if I remember correctly, which I may be wrong, you have the YouTube channel with mostly pve. If you want AC BF go play it.

Ramming to capsize is a cheap and unsportsman like tactic. I don't care who does it, there are even people in TDA who do it. It needs to be fixed and removed or at least made extremely rare and extremely hard to do. It should be a wtf just happened moment, not an expected result from a very simple and easy thing to do.

[Diceman]

I think Diceman has a point - gamers and ppl online will get creative to win and that may not result in what we read in ship logs and accounts of naval battles in the 18th and 19th century. It is important to note that a ramming ship can go on survival and after a delay come out with relatively little damage. So right now there is little incentive not to do it. However the damage model could include the rigging damage that would really cause the rammer problems and provide for a more realistic collision model (high speed not colliding to board).

So Diceman - I'll just bump Mouse's post for you.

I read Mouse's post.

And back in sea trials, stuff (demasting) like that happened on rams. You could also be demasted in just one or two volleys of shot. The community cried out for buffed masts and got them. Now they are reaping what they sowed in my view...

Change it back to the weak masts of sea trials...

I'm cool with that...

It'll be part of the game....

But I'd better not see any of you on here crying for buffed masts after you get demasted on an "accidental" ram...

Edited January 11, 2016 by Diceman

[AKPyrate]

I think that losing a bowsprit during a ram would be completely feasible.  Personally, I'm not a huge fan of the buffed masts, though I can understand keeping the buffed up lower masts for gameplay purposes.  That being said, here is an account of an actual collision during this timeperiod, and one that was an accident at that!

 

 

 

Account of RN ship colliding with HEIC ship Marquis Wellesley in Feb 1802:

"About sundown H.M. frigate Egyptienne was coming in to an anchor, when in shortening sail [she] left not sufficient way to shoot ahead clear of us. She fell broadside into our hawse; although the boatswain did all in his power to cut the cable, it did not prevent a terrible collision. The frigate tore away our cutwater and bowsprit, which brought down the fore topmast; in fact, made a clean sweep forward, with only one anchor down and one spare (sheet) at the bows."

(From the Journals of Thomas Addison in The Naval Miscellany (Volume I) published by the Navy Records Society)

 

EDIT: Descriptions of these actions can be found in William James' "The Naval History of Great Britain" (Vols 1 and 2). 

This is on line at: 
http://www.pbenyon.plus.com/Naval_History/Index.html 

END EDIT.

 

Based on this account, and a comment that I read about it stating that the frigate sent over work crews to help repair the damage to the HEIC ship, that the frigate was relatively undamaged.  Of course, the Marquis Wellesley was at anchor and thus had very little relative speed.  However, the M.W. was an 818 ton vessel (http://www.wrecksite.eu/wreck.aspx?139187), and the Egyptienne was a 1,434 ton frigate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_frigate_%C3%89gyptienne_(1799)).  Most importantly however, is the aspect of the crash.  The frigate essentially sailed across the bow and it became entangled.  All the attached rigging was pulled, resulting in a partial dismasting of the fore mast and a lot of other damage as well.

 

Additional incidents from the era, though I haven't done as much looking in to them:

 

 

 

On the 18th January, 1797, when a British fleet was making its way out of the Tagus the ST.GEORGE 98 ran foul of a Portuguese frigate carrying away the latter’s jib-boom and fore topgallantmast and herself running aground sustaining severe damage which required her to return to Lisbon for repairs. 

On the 12th February of the same year, prior to the Battle of Cape St. Vincent, the CULLODEN and COLOSSUS (both 74s) ran foul of each other. Damage to the COLUSSUS was relatively minor – staving in of some of her upperworks and the loss of her fore topgallantmast. CULLODEN was seriously injured – the knee and cheeks of her head, the head-rails, larboard cat-head, bowsprit-cap, bumpkins, jib-boom, and fore topgallantmast were entirely carried away and the bowsprit badly sprung. This scale of damage would normally be enough to merit a return to port for repairs but the CULLODEN, having a very determined captain and an expert crew, managed to make herself fit to lie in the line after about 12 hours hard work. Any ship whose ability to manoeuvre was restricted was a danger to herself and others when sailing in close formation in a fleet. 

In the presence of an enemy, collisions could have very unfortunate results. In 1795 off Genoa a French fleet was in sight of a British fleet of slightly superior force when, in the French fleet, the CA-IRA 80 ran foul of the VICTOIRE 80 with the former loosing her fore and main topmasts. The end result of the CA-IRA’s disablement was her capture by the British (together with a 74 gun ship ordered to tow her). 

 

 

Ultimately, collisions had  a very unpredictable outcome during this era, and could cause immense damage.  Remember, back then just winning the fight was the first part of the battle.  You still had to make it home afterwards.  It's no use pounding the enemy to submission if you're going to sink shortly afterwards.  Besides, tangled rigging is a mess that can severely alter the battle in unpredictable ways.

Edited January 11, 2016 by AKPyrate

[Prater]

Yes, but the part is they should be unpredictable.  Are there any accounts of purposeful ram being done in battle?  And widespread at that?  I would guess no, and the reason would be because of the unpredictability and the possibility of immense damage to your own ship, possibly the loss of all or most of your masts, to say nothing of the structural damage.

[AKPyrate]

Another account, this time in battle:

 

 

the preconcerted signal for the Nymphe's artillery to open. A furious action now commenced, the two frigates still running before the wind, within rather less than hailing distance of each other. At about 6h. 30m. the Cléopâtre suddenly hauled up eight points from the wind ; and, before 7 a.m., her mizenmast (about 12 feet above the deck) and her wheel were shotaway.

In consequence of this double disaster, the French frigate, at about 7 a.m., paid round off, and shortly afterwards fell on board of her antagonist, her jib-boom passing between the Nymphe's fore and main masts, and pressing so hard against the head of the already wounded mainmast, that it was expected every instant to fall ; especially, as the main and spring stays had both been shot away. Fortunately, however, for the Nymphe, the jib-boom of her adversary was carried away, and her own mainmast preserved.

After this, the two frigates fell alongside, head and stern, but were still held fast, the Cléopâtre's larboard maintopmast-studdingsail boom-iron having hooked the larboard leech-rope of the Nymphe's main topsail. Here again was danger to the mainmast. In an instant a maintopman, named Burgess, sprang aloft, and cut away the leech-rope from the end of the main yard ; and, as an additional means of getting the ships apart, Lieutenant Pellowe, by Captain Pellew's orders, cut away the best bower anchor.

During these important operations, no relaxation had occurred, on the part of the British at least, in the main purpose for which the two ships had met. Soon after they had come in contact in the manner we have related, the Cléopâtre was gallantly boarded by a portion of the Nymphe's crew; one man of whom, at 7 h. 10 m. a.m., hauled down the republican colours, after the action had continued 50 minutes.* The firing now ceased ; and it was just as the last of 150 prisoners had been removed into the Nymphe, that the two ships separated. †

 

† Mr. James has not given the account of this action with his accustomed accuracy, and leaves the reader to imagine that it was not till long after the Cléopâtre had run stern on to the Nymphe that she was boarded and carried by the English. Mr. Osler, whose work is compiled from Lord Exmouth's own notes, gives the following account : " The Cléopâtre (from the loss of her mizenmast and wheel) being thus rendered unmanageable, came round with her bow to the Nymphe's broadside, her jib-boom pressing hard against the mainmast. Captain Pellew, supposing that the enemy were going to board, ordered the boarders to be called to repel them ; but the disabled state of the Cléopâtre was soon evident, and he at once gave orders to board her. Immediately the boarders rushed on the forecastle, a division of them, headed by Mr. Ball, boarding through the maindeck ports, fought their way along the gangways to the quarterdeck. The republicans, though much superior in numbers, could not resist the impetuosity of the attack. At 10 minutes past 7 they had all fled below or submitted, and the pendant of the Cléopâtre was hauled down:' - Osler's Life of Exmouth, p. 85.

 

Here again, the  "ram" was unintentional.  It was due to shooting away the mizzen, which made the rig out of balance.  Ultimately, it did not bode well for the 'ramming' vessel.

[AKPyrate]

Yes, but the part is they should be unpredictable.  Are there any accounts of purposeful ram being done in battle?  And widespread at that?  I would guess no, and the reason would be because of the unpredictability and the possibility of immense damage to your own ship, possibly the loss of all or most of your masts, to say nothing of the structural damage.

 

Quite my point.  If damage could be greater for ramming, accidental or otherwise (hey, look around at other boats in your fleet once in a while to avoid crossing their bows-maybe limit the damage silly AI vessels can do to you though?).  That being said, I think that low speed collisions (i.e. trying to board) should have little damage associated with them in general.  Maybe if the relative speed of the two vessels coming together is less than 2 kts (or some other reasonable figure), that there will be no damage?  However, there can be great damage for any vessel colliding at higher speeds, though taking tonnage into consideration.  Let's face it, a Lynx isn't going to sink a Victory, or even do much damage beyond paint and maybe some little bit of Lynx's rigging to clear away from the spar deck.

[Diceman]

Little reason to do it when you can capsize a full health frigate? Or say you are in a privateer kicking the crap out of another privateer and they just ram you to capsize you? Or how about when you are going fast enough to where to your bowsprit breaks off, and the enemy purposefully positions themselves to break your bowsprit off? Without any skill you can cause all these things and ruin a match.

@dicemen. That is the point. It happens often enough now without thousands of players so it needs to be fixed now before it is the main tactic. In fact 2-3 months ago it was the main tactic when most people were in frigates. Ram into the stern quarter and flip the possibly full health frigate over with little damage to yourself. You might even keep your bowsprit. And if I remember correctly, which I may be wrong, you have the YouTube channel with mostly pve. If you want AC BF go play it.

Ramming to capsize is a cheap and unsportsman like tactic. I don't care who does it, there are even people in TDA who do it. It needs to be fixed and removed or at least made extremely rare and extremely hard to do. It should be a wtf just happened moment, not an expected result from a very simple and easy thing to do.

That's right. I do have the YouTube channel. My fights are up there for everyone to see... Good and bad.

Whether or why I choose PvP or PvE is none of your goddamn business. I paid my money just like you. I'll play the game as I see fit and I'll have nobody, other than the people who created this game telling me how I should play my game.

I think there are many people out there now and that will come into this game with very much a similar view.

For all of this testing period (Sea trials and Open world) I've noticed that there seems to be this elitist class who seem to think that THEY are in charge of how this game should be played and what constitutes proper gameplay...

I think that in just a very few days this group of people are about to see THEIR game changed forever when the unwashed heathen masses are allowed to come and pollute their private pool... Kinda like that scene in Caddyshack... Get ready for some dootie in your pool!!!

[Prater]

I never interjected my nose into your YouTube. I merely brought up you are the pve player by evidence of your yt so don't tell me to stick to pve.

Again, don't care about who does it. Those who do are unsportsmanlike. Kind of like in a fair fight those who punch or kick below the belt. That is what it is like. And those who ram to capsize are the lowest of the low players in the game and I suggest all clans to no longer tolerate it among their members.

Let's just all play this way. It is the easiest and fastest way to sink an enemy with very little risk to yourself, and there is little the enemy can do to stop it. Once you ram their stern quarter, they can't do anything to stop you from capsizing them if that is what you want to do. There is nothing as cheap and low in this game as ramming to capsize.