maturin Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Chapman to the rescue... Anyone who want´s to see what fluyts evolved into from the beginning of the 18th century, please have a look at the plates XV - XX in the Architectura Navalis Mercatoria. They are in the 'Catts' or 'Catt-built' category, name depending on the edition. These are Chapman´s own designs, so consider them state-of-the-art for the late 1750s. I was just about to say (with somewhat little confidence), that Alex Connors images looked like cats. Thanks for that. I have spoken out several times before in favor of including mid-18th century Baltic hullforms, specifically including cats. Somewhat ironic, actually. It appears that between the fluyt fans and myself, the only person who actually advocated for in-period fluyt-like designs in the past was me... English speakers, whether in 1809 or 2015, would call this a Cat or a Katt. Similar vessels operated as colliers and timber haulers out of England. The Dutch still referred to these designs as fluitships simply because it the hullform evolved directly from the fluyt, just as caravels came from carracks. It's an incredibly archaic hullform for 1809, by the way. The Dutch really fell off the wagon of naval architecture after their Golden Age. All those frigates posted on the forum look like 1720s two-deckers with 19th century topsides slapped on. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prater Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Chapman to the rescue... Anyone who want´s to see what fluyts evolved into from the beginning of the 18th century, please have a look at the plates XV - XX in the Architectura Navalis Mercatoria. They are in the 'Catts' or 'Catt-built' category, name depending on the edition. These are Chapman´s own designs, so consider them state-of-the-art for the late 1750s. Chapman also was nice enough to put a draught of a french flute (Blaise Ollivier´s Chameau of 1744, she carried 24*8-pounders and 12*6 in reality, though) and one of a traditional dutch fluyte* on the same plate - LIII. Compare for yourself. *it´s called flyboat in the index of the ANM. The british called all fluytes flyboats, regardless of the size (source: K.H. Marquardt, Katten oder Katt-Schiffe) Chapman, having studied in Brest and London, used the english term. Edit: Link to the ANM http://www.sjohistoriska.se/en/Collections/Archives/ChapmanNet/ChapmanNet/ Can you please post the plans to compare to the 17th century Fluyts. Hint, they don't exactly look like what Wicked Mouse and Harry Fishnuts are advocating for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I find it strange you don't actually show the plans. Can you please do that to compare to the 17th century Fluyts. I posted them earlier in the thread: http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/7327-discussion-player-ship-selection-1st-half-2016/?p=138069 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicked Mouse Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I guess I don't know. I can't find a ship name. Only description is 150ft charter retourschip 1150 tons design by Charles Bentam in 1742 Ya, nevermind, I thought the retourschepen was a type of fluit. I'm afraid not. A retourschip is a class of Eastindiaman, like the Amsterdam that's being made already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prater Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 I posted them earlier in the thread: http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/7327-discussion-player-ship-selection-1st-half-2016/?p=138069 You posted the French Chameau. Plates 15-19 look less like the 17th Century Dutch Fluyt than that does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 You posted the French Chameau. Plates 15-18 look less like the 17th Century Dutch Fluyt than that does. No, look at center (No.6) ship: "Dutch Flyboat." Le Chameau is top (No.5). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prater Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 No, look at center (No.6) ship: "Dutch Flyboat." Le Chameau is top (No.5). Ok, true, but I am talking about Plates XV-XIX that he mentioned. They are not this: I think that the Dutch fluyt trading ships should be up for voting IMHO: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) Don't you think that we also need a couple of about-20-gun-corvets, that are "small, maneuverable, lightly armed warships, smaller than a frigate and larger than sloops-of-war" to fight against Mercury and Cerberus, coast patrolling, small ship hunting, exploration (...) ? 1) A french example : The 24-guns La Créole (1829) Plan and monograph : http://ancre.fr/en/monographies-en/61-monographie-de-la-creole-corvette-1823.html?search_query=corvette&results=6 Source : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_corvette_Créole_(1829) 2) A spanish exploration corvet : La Descubierta (1789) Source : http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/6819-spanish-corvette-descubierta/ Player ship selection 2016 post : http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/7306-player-ship-selection-1st-half-2016/?p=137551 Edited October 14, 2015 by LeBoiteux 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelSandwich Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) like these corvets? 1800 & 1806 Edited October 13, 2015 by SteelSandwich 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Anyone got any mid-18th century corvettes? This is one area where there is a lot of room for elegant older designs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malachi Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) Quote Anyone got any mid-18th century corvettes? This is one area where there is a lot of room for elegant older designs. Surrre. British Termagant, 1780, 20*6-pounders http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/82993.html Danish Amrum class, ketch rigged, 1750s Danish Tranqvebar, 1761, 20*6-pounders + 4*3-pounders, based on the french frégate légère Panthère Danish Langeland, 1758, 18*4-pounders, based on the Peregrine Galley/Royal Caroline: Unknown french corvette, ca. 1760, rig? Flat as a pancake, this one. And the danish 24*8-pounder ship I posted in the selection thread would also be considered a corvette at the end of the 18th century. Oh, and the pretty awesome ketch rigged privateer in Chapman´s ANM, Plate XXXIX Nr.9 Edited April 5, 2019 by Malachi 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arvenski Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 We could definitely use some more corvettes and light frigates, yeah. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prater Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Surrre. Danish Amrum class, ketch rigged, 1750s Amrum.jpg a1232b.jpg +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 A big yes to ketch rig, even if the performance wouldn't be the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arvenski Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) Christiansborg, Danish, 1758 - 1786, 24-gun corvette Length of Gundeck 128' danish fod Breadth 33' 10' Gundeck 24 Danish 12-Pounder OP by Malachi here: http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/6241-ship-rigged-sloops-and-5-6-rates-collection-with-plans/ Yes, please. Edited October 13, 2015 by Arvenski 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeBoiteux Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 Speaking of Corvets, for your viewing pleasure only but not for the Player ship selection 1st half 2016 because she's french : La Bayadère, 22 guns, 1811 Source, pics, information : http://mnm.webmuseo.com/ws/musee-national-marine/app/collection/record/8981?vc=ePkH4LF7lVbNbtswDH4Voy-w485Z2mEbFqwY1l0LxWYcFrKkiVKWvv0-yrLiJr3sEIT8RFE0_2_H090yQT7e_U9-fLh10SoMrTwyD91EA5tu8H-d9WZQZWrXdwQQYv2RdhSpc3mi6L-6U6XuKfhU6U9MTvnO5BQJDUpB0RToOVh2BNqj5YK4333unJ_QA21p8pggAwFgZxJ7hzIc6Py8hqQzIZC16_MVAtUkPM6yv6HQ9E1Jw6UeJFb7YECCJZfjjpzQpDNgjD4HSPSRqvZZV-Epx4Wn3ltaGMuUz9t6o2Ij-TGacGT6Aj_6yEiXJkIncgQfpIYUi36SsSz13REiQk1bYfz-hZJsRHzPeP2omn9QPiE8kl7tIj3TAdsSC3RhnMyPaB-LHAo9AUJY5SH9ov7o1Lzlc5ajyqbLueQQUFFSMiZP-i9ZJScTVeABa0N7Qi4WvEE9QmvQG3ChM87YVyQxQVTgj9lOfG1Ub7wByRaPXcPtDdm8q2tA2K4gwQrV3-gXTrT11lKP6W8OBz6jAig3yK6ZvhKaEBOlI_peO7tY1KCceAlsdeoKkSuoKJ0LSRcBeVpdbonzdKOxJOEt_F4erqUu1q5RDNSWitp-Uk7yLUce5jzQPr_p_2RcLBInXbrU7AFNQAz2nBCR0H0tX4dsxXSVTQhoZOQAaEeInpPsfDT5XJlHkyJj5WWF1jY8UpyMw3cjNILumLDmUcT-xIDGiNDNFYSGp9Z2MA0_z53P3Z73ltGNMP_9bC9ycC-6X9b-wYdDluKyQQufnmGmfiMflFo2iK2PJ0qpbHNtcPwD5VQ55w$$ 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrik Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) French (left) 24-gun corvette Bayonnaise (1793) Edited October 14, 2015 by Henrik 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Haratik Posted October 13, 2015 Share Posted October 13, 2015 (edited) Can you please post the plans to compare to the 17th century Fluyts. Hint, they don't exactly look like what Wicked Mouse and Harry Fishnuts are advocating for. Please, keep acting like you know what I'm thinking, the arrogance you and maturin portray is seriously entertaining. I don't care if it's an archaic fluyt from the 17th century or a "modern" fluyt to your design specifications. I just don't want to see one type of Indiaman of historical accuracy and 2-3 "fictional" types that look like someone slapped them together. Diversity is my goal, as is some representation into the mercantile field by such economic heavyweights as the Dutch and Spanish. Edited October 13, 2015 by Hairy Fishnuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prater Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Please, keep acting like you know what I'm thinking, the arrogance you and maturin portray is seriously entertaining. I don't care if it's an archaic fluyt from the 17th century or a "modern" fluyt to your design specifications. I just don't want to see one type of Indiaman of historical accuracy and 2-3 "fictional" types that look like someone slapped them together. Diversity is my goal, as is some representation into the mercantile field by such economic heavyweights as the Dutch and Spanish. Are you for real? We have never stated what you are thinking, and arrogance? You are being pretty arrogant yourself and have contributed nil to this conversation except attack people. And I could care less what your goals are.Again, please post the plans or images we have requested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrik Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Danish 30-gun corvette 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malachi Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 (edited) Nice A. Roux drawing you found there, Henrik!. That´s either Havruen or Thetis, their sister ship Freia already is in the player selection thread Quote I just don't want to see one type of Indiaman of historical accuracy and 2-3 "fictional" types that look like someone slapped them together. Which 2-3 'fictional types' do you mean? Serious question And one thing to keep in mind when talking about (dutch) fluytes: one of the reasons they fell out of favour till the mid-17th century is that they´ve been rather ill-suited for extended voyages in tropical climates like East/Westindia due to their high upper deck and very narrow stern and were replaced by the dutch pinas ship for long distance hauling rather quickly. They kept their dominant role as the main trading ship in northern europe for a while, but things like the shut down of the tax loop hole and the developement of better and faster designs reduced their numbers slowly and steadily. If you want a design that´s representative of dutch long-distance trading/VOC ships for most of the 17th century, that would be the Batavia or the Seven Provencien. Post-17th century, it would look like this: That´s the Valkenise of 1717. But we get a pretty similiar, albeit a bit more modern, ship with the Amsterdam anyway. Edited April 5, 2019 by Malachi 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrik Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Nice A. Roux drawing you found there, Henrik!. That´s either Havruen or Thetis, their sister ship Freia already is in the player selection thread Wonderful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteelSandwich Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 For a more elaborate visualization of the dutch eastindiamen: Den Ary 1725 D'Gerechtigheid 1742 Mercurius 1747 Barbersteyn 1767 Vergelijking 1780 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malachi Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 (edited) Dat stern of Mercurius Interesting that the Dutch still built huge ships with a square tuck in the 1740s, this method was abandoned in the rest of europe in the 1700s. Edited October 14, 2015 by Malachi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maturin Posted October 14, 2015 Share Posted October 14, 2015 Dutch naval architects were seriously the first hipsters. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now