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Discussion - Player ship selection 1st Half 2016


jodgi

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That's not what I meant and you know it. Unless he can provide credible proof of his statements with paintings, drawings, sketches, etc. Do I really need to spell it out?

You should be careful with your language when discussing a technical subject. You are playing fast and loose with words to try and gain upperhand in an argument. Anyways, what are you asking Maturin to provide? Unless he provides a plan of fluyt from the 18th. C. that doesn't look like a fluyt from the 17th C., then 18th C. fluyt existed and looked the same?

Anyways, nothing is lost if seek something more like this:

QmwXZlR.jpg

(thank you Zeekoning)

And less like this:

4001135413_2c36b64f46_b.jpg

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Two seconds on Google told me that the fluyt Loire from 1720 carried 30 guns. This instantly tells you that it has nothing to do with the economical merchantmen of the previous century. You did all this research and stopped short as soon as you thought the facts were on your side. It's exhausting for everyone else in the thread!

The Dutch also used fully armed fluyts. That's something else then than the .. fluyts? Haes in 't Veld was a fluyt hired by the Dutch navy and carried 30 guns. Believe it or not, they were sometimes actually fitted as warships! Unless you have of course design drawings of those fluyts, flutes or flûtes with more than usual guns that do not resemble the Dutch original idea, then I'd like to see them!

 

EDIT: oh found some more interesting stuff:

 

English flute/fluyt, drawing from 1750, to be seen in the Maritiem Museum Rotterdam and Fries Scheepvaartmuseum.

Or posters of fluyts that are being sold/auctioned in 1719 and 1757.

Edited by Wicked Mouse
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I love how you keep referring to modern technology to prove your point, maybe you should reference this too:

Gulf War

 

Yes the Abrams was completely superior, but guess what? The Iraqi army still fielded outdated tank designs.  So if we go by your line of thought, shouldn't this game also allow outdated designs?

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I love how you keep referring to modern technology to prove your point, maybe you should reference this too:

Gulf War

 

Yes the Abrams was completely superior, but guess what? The Iraqi army still fielded outdated tank designs.  So if we go by your line of thought, shouldn't this game also allow outdated designs?

Hmmm...45 years between the tanks vs 100+ years? Again, it would be like the M1A1 vs the Mark 1

Again, just point to the 1600s design being used in the time period of the ships already in game and I am fine with it. Otherwise, find more modern designs.

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French Flûte of the 1760s

 

Great! So the late 18th C by the French referred to as flûte looked differently! That's excellent work. That's that out of the way. But it doesn't deny the fact that the Dutch ships still existed and were built in the 18th century, by the Dutch.

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Hmmm...45 years between the tanks vs 100+ years? Again, it would be like the M1A1 vs the Mark 1

Again, just point to the 1600s design being used in the time period of the ships already in game and I am fine with it. Otherwise, find more modern designs.

The technology difference between Soviet era heavy tanks and the M1 Abrams might as well have been 100 years.  Please don't tell me you can't do the math.

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That's fine, you can dislike my tone however you like, however you want to read it.

It's funny how you state the facts as if they were indeed facts, but if you had done your research, you'd have found that said galleon was armed with only 36 guns when it was brought to bear by the HMS Centurion, which was part of a fleet under Captain George Anson's command to take the Manila Colony away from the Spanish.  Some ship of the line that was eh?  Some further reading for you:

Captured Galleon

Thanks for assuming I'm part of the 98% of humanity.  I'm glad to be part of the majority with you.

 

By the 1700s the Spanish Galleon had evolved into the type of ship below, this is the Nuestra Senora del Pilar, a contemporary of the Covadonga captured by Centurion. More or less a small 2 decker warship being used in an Indiaman-like role, as such the armament is on the light side (pierced for 50 guns but carrying less, unlike the model the lower deck would be mostly unarmed to make space for cargo).

 

OC15001-Senora-del-Pilar--victoryshipmod

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Great! So the late 18th C by the French referred to as flûte looked differently! That's excellent work. That's that out of the way. But it doesn't deny the fact that the Dutch ships still existed and were built in the 18th century, by the Dutch.

 

 

I know they existed, I never said they didn't.  Point out where Maturin, Alex Conner, AKD, or I have said that Dutch ships didn't exist in this time period.  I've spent quite awhile trying to find what they looked like but I am not having any luck.  Now, like we have asked, please post some paintings, images, or plans of them if you have any.

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Thanks Alex, much obliged for that. :)

The point, if I'm not making it clear, is that yes, the Spanish still had Galleons in the 18th century. But they are galleons in name only, they are designed like an 18th century ship of the line.

 

If you want galleons like this in Naval Action, I'd be happy to see them too.

 

But I would not like to see the older 16th/17th century Galleons, because they would look very out of place and be massively outperformed by 18th century ships.

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Chapman to the rescue...

 

Anyone who want´s to see what fluyts evolved into from the beginning of the 18th century, please have a look at the plates XV - XX in the Architectura Navalis Mercatoria. They are in the 'Catts' or 'Catt-built' category, name depending on the edition. These are Chapman´s own designs, so consider them state-of-the-art for the late 1750s.

 

Chapman also was nice enough to put a draught of a french flute (Blaise Ollivier´s Chameau of 1744, she carried 24*8-pounders and 12*6 in reality, though) and one of a traditional dutch fluyte* on the same plate - LIII. Compare for yourself.

 

*it´s called flyboat in the index of the ANM. The british called all fluytes flyboats, regardless of the size (source: K.H. Marquardt, Katten oder Katt-Schiffe)

 Chapman, having studied in Brest and London, used the english term.

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Link to the ANM

 

http://www.sjohistoriska.se/en/Collections/Archives/ChapmanNet/ChapmanNet/

Edited by Malachi
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De Rhijn, a dutch 62-gun 2-decker, 1812-1817.

 

wuurTKq.png

 

The rest of the images:

xDoYkth.png

YxgPksm.png

0avWhf0.png

tElOj5u.png

 

Now that´s interesting. The first image seems to be way too 'modern' (fully armed spar deck, rig) to be of 1812. Is there a date on this plan?

 

The other images could belong the french Pallas-class Vestale/Rhijn which was launched in Rotterdam in 1816. Great find! :)

 

Edit: Found some more info about her

 

1. Rijn, also called Rhijn, laid down as the French La Vestale at the navy shipyard at Rotterdam, Netherlands by P. Glavimans in March 1813, handed over to the Netherlands in 1814 and renamed Rijn, launched on 5 October 1816, lengthened in 1825, conversion into a paddle steamship failed, shortened 1830, guard ship at Hellevoetsluis, Netherlands and Willemsoord, Netherlands since 1852, broken up at Hellevoetsluis in 1875, dimensions 145 x 36,8 x 19 French feet or 55,25 x 12,3 x 5,75 metres and an armament of 44-54 guns (since 1830)

 

The first pic probably shows the lengthened version of 1825

Edited by Malachi
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That´s not a SoL, that´s how frigates from the mid-1820s onwards looked like :)

 

For example, french frigates of that time carried 30*30-pounders with 26*30-pound carronades + 4 18-pounders on the spar-deck, in the 1830s some of them even got 2 or 4 80-pound shell guns.

Edited by Malachi
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yes she was cut down in 1832... but launched in 1813...... what she adds to the game is more variety... more choice and different fighting quality's.

 

give the choice of sailing such a powerful frigate into action , i think most captains would say yes please... regardless of how she looks  

 

and thanks for the plans... 

 

i feel this vessel would narrow the gap between 4th and 3rd rates 

Edited by ragnar hairy trousers
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I´d expect that neither Endymion nor Indefatigable would unbalance things. Both Endymion and Indefatigable were ~15 feet shorter and had 4 24-pounders less than Constitution. Indefatigable did fight against a 74, but that was a very rare incident. The only other frigate vs. SoL fight I know of is Peter Wessel raking the hell out of two small swedish two-deckers with the Hvide Orn.

Edited by Malachi
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I am not suggesting that we all buy a Victory and Razee it, but perhaps include ships in the game which had been razee'd later in life, even if this date was after the inclusion date. The reasoning being that the ship already exists, it was just heavily modified during its lifetime.

 

 

Hm, razées or any other conversions were made to the standards of the time so a SoL razée´d in the 1830s will look like a frigate of the 1830s and will carry the armarment of the 1830s. If we allow this then there´s absolutely no reason not to include ships that were actually launched at a later date than our current timeframe.

And some ships, if they were around long enough, even got steam engines, shell guns and other nice things ('just heavily modified', indeed) that would render balancing absolutly impractical.

Edited by Malachi
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