Discussion - Player ship selection 1st Half 2016

[Malachi]

Trying to balance Conny with another ship is not a good idea, in my opinion. As I said on the previous page, it would make our frigate line-up even more top-heavy.

WE HAVE JUST ONE REAL 18-POUNDER FRIGATE INGAME RIGHT NOW.

Balance her with giving her the same level requirements/price tag as a small 74, so it´s basically a choice of building/sailing the Bellona or Conny. That´s how it was historically and that`s how I´d like to see it ingame.

 

And am I the only who appreciates the new 'preferred' timeframe of 1730-1790? Picking ships from this timeline would suit our current line-up much better than anything past 1800. If that greek corvette makes it ingame, then I want a 30-pounder frigate with a fully armed spar-deck or that french 36-pounder monster razée Guièrre (both are 'older' than the corvette, by the way, and would just fit in the previous timeline of 1680-1825).

Edited October 12, 2015 by Malachi

[Haratik]

Fluyts are out of the time period. Placing them together with what we have would be like placing this next to this or this

 

 

I'm going to call your bluff on this and ask for a more detailed reason on why they're out of the time period when they were quite well used (and copied!) by many nations, including the English/British.  There's no point in adding the traditional Spanish and Portuguese galleons if Fluyts are not going to be allowed in the game.  You might be able to fill the merchantmen gap with several different East/West Indiaman designs, but there'll be no small amount of hue and cry about the lack of historical designs missing that were the bulk of the Spanish/Portuguese and Dutch trade fleets.

Don't get me wrong, I understand your opinion, they were most definitely dated designs, but they DID operate in the time period, and are still worthy of consideration.

 

Are we trying to find potential trinco/connie rivals? I've said this before and I'll say it again, HMS Leander and HMS Newcastle were heavy 4th-rate frigates designed specifically in response to American Super-frigates. They would be natural choices.

 

And you can keep saying it too, as will the devs when they say:

Limitations:

We want to bring ships from underrepresented nations into this voting; thus English/US/French vessels proposals are discouraged. Spanish, Dutch, Danish, Swedish, Portuguese, maybe German built ships are encouraged.

 

They won't add another ship of English/American/French origins unless they have no choice, and there's still plenty of fish in the sea.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Hairy Fishnuts

[Malachi]

There's no point in adding the traditional Spanish and Portuguese galleons if Fluyts are not going to be allowed in the game.

 

 

Gall...Galleons? We are going to get galleons ingame ?

[LeBoiteux]

I'm going to call your bluff on this and ask for a more detailed reason on why they're out of the time period when they were quite well used (and copied!) by many nations, including the English/British.  There's no point in adding the traditional Spanish and Portuguese galleons if Fluyts are not going to be allowed in the game.  You might be able to fill the merchantmen gap with several different East/West Indiaman designs, but there'll be no small amount of hue and cry about the lack of historical designs missing that were the bulk of the Spanish/Portuguese and Dutch trade fleets.

Don't get me wrong, I understand your opinion, they were most definitely dated designs, but they DID operate in the time period, and are still worthy of consideration.

I ain't an expert. So I don't understand the controversy about Fluyts.

 

There seemed to be some Fluyts ("flute" in french) built in France for example, during the XVIIth and XVIIIth centuries for cargo shipment, troop transport and exploration.

 

For example :

- Le Chameau (1717) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Chameau

- La Boussole and L'Astrolabe that were former flutes built in the 1780's (!) and that took part of Laperouse's expedition : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Boussole_(1781)

 

And in the XIX-th century, french fluyts were renamed "corvettes de charge".

 

So why shouldn't there be Fluyts in NA ?

 

Source (in french) :

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flûte_(bateau)

Edited October 12, 2015 by LeBoiteux

[Mirones]

stop beating a dead horse Spanish keep the term galleons for their warships where others have switched to Ship of the Line.

 

there was a French Fluyt in the the last poll a very nice build tiny india man similar to the ship on the sternlight WiP Picture

[BungeeLemming]

sorry to tell you this mr mirones but that ship is a Swedish 18pdr privateer frigate "Jupiter"   designed by Chapman

I moved your post here.

Also your right. I checked chapman's book and he lists it under 40 gun privateer. Frigate type rigging. 28x24pd and 12x6pd guns. 156ft long

[Mirones]

hmm looked like an idiaman to me but her large number of gunports got me thinking too.

 

anyway that fluyte i menshioned before 

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/2498-player-selected-ship-2015-suggestions/page-4#entry51899

[LeBoiteux]

stop beating a dead horse Spanish keep the term galleons for their warships where others have switched to Ship of the Line.

there was a French Fluyt in the the last poll a very nice build tiny india man similar to the ship on the sternlight WiP Picture

Some may try to keep small ships, traders and "older" ships out of this discussion (and out of the poll...) to be able to lobby for heavy frigates and modern ones...    

Edited October 12, 2015 by LeBoiteux

[jodgi]

First thing comes to my mind is, why wast every bellona captain sailing a pavel then?

Because pavels were nearly not used at all, whilst there only advantage was their speed.

I don't want to quarrel. Guns do affect the equation, many Bellona drivers had the old Bellona so the firepower diff was even more pronounced. The Rakers did have a short Pavel meta period as rats right before the wipe. Not all players know the Pavel peculiarity you can use to outplay a Bellona, in fact, many players don't even know what to do with speed and just forfeit the match by fighting a losing DPM battle. That does not mean that speed is not king, though.

 

Trying to balance Conny with another ship is not a good idea, in my opinion. As I said on the previous page, it would make our frigate line-up even more top-heavy.

As long as we can speed mod our ships from crafting to upgrades, connie is sitting alone in a league of her own. Having choices in that league will distribute the top heaviness over several instead of just one ship. Why not have choices at each and every "league", "tier" or "segment of the ship lineup? If all of you insist connie is to sit there all by herself, then fine, we'll all just drive connies.

 

WE HAVE JUST ONE REAL 18-POUNDER FRIGATE INGAME RIGHT NOW.

Not entirely sure what your underlying meaning is here? If we were to downgun belle/frig to twelvers, surely the need for 18 pounder frigates is even more pressing?

 

Balance her with giving her the same level requirements/price tag as a small 74

Won't balance a thing. Players won't care and just grind the extra bit to be able to take out the connie master-race. Big ships balance themselves by being slow and limited in usability. A fir built, multi slotted connie has every tactical choice available to her and is untouchable unless ganked. Anything can be brought down if ganked.

edit: spelling

Edited October 12, 2015 by jodgi

[Sella]

Just a random question here, would you feel that brigs,brigantines,or ships that are a mixture of a brig and a schooner(dont really know the english translation for this type of ship) are worth posting in the suggestions thread? 

[LeBoiteux]

Just a random question here, would you feel that brigs,brigantines,or ships that are a mixture of a brig and a schooner(dont really know the english translation for this type of ship) are worth posting in the suggestions thread? 

+1 whatever her name :  brigantine, lugger, sloop... 

We really need small and medium ships with different types of rig (sail) and design.

 It'd fill a gap between the lynx-privateer-pickle and the Brig !!!!

 

However, do you mean that ? 

(from Brigand : http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/2498-player-selected-ship-2015-suggestions/?p=54125):

 

 

A brigantine with square sails in front and "schooner-like" sails behind (that is a "fore-and-aft" rig) with a small square sail above ?

I'd love to have a brigantine in-game !!!!

Edited October 12, 2015 by LeBoiteux

[Sella]

I think a picture will help you more

 

 

The greek naming for this kind of ship is ΓΟΛΕΤΟΜΠΡΙΚΟ or ΜΠΡΙΚΟΓΟΛΕΤΑ or ΒΡΙΚΟΓΟΛΕΤΑ if you want to google it.As i said earlier it literally means brig and schooner together.The design is italian.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Sella22

[LeBoiteux]

Well, I'm not an expert and not english.

It may be :

- a kind of brigantine...

- or a schooner with square sails added like the Pickle.

You'll have to ask NA experts (Maturin...).

 

However I love her. If you have the plans...

Edited October 12, 2015 by LeBoiteux

[LeBoiteux]

As i said earlier it literally means brig and schooner together.The design is italian.

In french, a brigantine is a "brick-goelette", that literally means "brig-schooner"....  

[Sella]

Quick someone summon one

 

Unfortunately i dont have any plans of her.However there is a book that might contain several generic plans of ships of that type and many more.The bad thing is that its in italian!But anyway this is the book.
 

http://www.amazon.it/Vele-italiane-della-costa-occidentale/dp/8820348330

 

 

Yeap that the name   Cheers mate

 

Apparently there is a portion of it online and has a brig goelette in page 72

https://books.google.gr/books?id=ylA0rrh4xGUC&pg=PA73&hl=el&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false

Edited October 12, 2015 by Sella22

[LeBoiteux]

Unfortunately i dont have any plans of her. 

Too bad. I really hope one will be able to post greek plans on the forums. We need greek sailors and ships (especially small ones)   .

However there is a book that might contain several generic plans of ships of that type and many more.The bad thing is that its in italian!But anyway this is the book.

http://www.amazon.it/Vele-italiane-della-costa-occidentale/dp/8820348330

That's a start.

Edited October 12, 2015 by LeBoiteux

[Sella]

Well to be honest you probably wont see any plans of Greek ships in the future.   Thats because most of the ships in Greece were made by experience and not plans which is unfortunate.I can post more pictures of several of them though 

 

 

 

Here are some pictures:

One armed 

 

some info about it

 

lenght: 15(?) meters (questionable since the source says the lenght was 32.5 greek cubits)

weight: around 250 tons

guns:16 cannons uknown caliber

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Unarmed one

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you think that they can be added in the game please do tell me so so i can post them in the suggestions thread or feel free to do it yourself

Edited October 12, 2015 by Sella22

[LeBoiteux]

Too bad. Aren't there any ship model makers or naval archaeologist who'd make plans in Greece nowadays, like Boudriot in France (http://ancre.fr/en/) ? However, pics are welcome.

Edited October 12, 2015 by LeBoiteux

[Malachi]

Some may try to keep small ships, traders and "older" ships out of this discussion (and out of the poll...) to be able to lobby for heavy frigates and modern ones...    

 

 

Some may try to keep the line-up reasonable and coherent, though. A Trinc next to traditional galleon (that´s what Hairy Fishnuts wrote, Mirones. The horse ain´t dead enough) would make me want to smash baby kittens onto a wall.

 

And a dutch fluyt of the 17th century isn´t the same as french flute from mid-18th century. Like a frégate de 1er ordre isnt the same as frégate de 12. Both carried 12-pounders and were called 'frégate', but the former is a two decker from the 17th century, while the latter is true frigate like our Belle Poule. Names do not count, designs do.

 

Don´t get me wrong, I prefer ships from the 1670s - 1740s myself (much prettier and I do have a soft spot for vessels that look like floating bordellos), but older ship designs don´t make  a lot of sense with what we´ve got ingame currently.

 

Not entirely sure what your underlying meaning is here? If we were to downgun belle/frig to twelvers, surely the need for 18 pounder frigates is even more pressing?

 

 

That´s what I wanted to say, we need more proper 18-pounders. But those 18-pounders wouldn´t stand a chance against a properly captained Conny or any ship roughly in the same league as her. So the gap would still be there, we´d just have two OP ships, not one.

It makes more sense to fill the roster from the bottom up, not top down.

 

EDIT: Hugs and kisses to Cavero for posting that beautiful spanish frigate. Plans for that ship (or class) are in 'Las fragatas de vela de la armada espanola 1650-1853'. if I remember correctly.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Malachi

[Sella]

The best source that i can think of is the Hellenic Maritime Museum where i got the plans for the corvette which was a bit of a pain since the musuem is located in Athens and lets say that its not that easy for me to visit them every now and then.The second option is the Hellenic Navy's History Department which is also located in Athens.Anyway i ll do my best to try and find any other sources

[jodgi]

But those 18-pounders wouldn´t stand a chance against a properly captained Conny or any ship roughly in the same league as her.

Now I'm curious, please explain. Keep in mind I know nothing. Connie is Connie, but how would a proper 18 pounder not be able to compete with our upgunned frig and belle or a trinco?

 

edit: I simply misread.

 

Those proper 18's would be able to give a trinco a hard time, though?

[LeBoiteux]

Captains from Spain, Denmark, Greece, everywhere...

Please, find us plans of Brigantines, Sloop, Lugger (...) for the Ship selection 2016, like this "Unknown Brigantine" (1783) but.. from Britain :

http://collections.rmg.co.uk/collections/objects/382813.html

[Malachi]

Those proper 18's would be able to give a trinco a hard time, though?

 

 

Sure. Trinc is a Leda-class frigate, these were decent ships, but nothing extraordinary. 18-pounder designs from Spain, France, Denmark and Britain were pretty evenly matched, some were a bit faster than others, better performers in heavy seas or carried more guns, but no ship within that class would be really OP.

Edited October 12, 2015 by Malachi

[LeBoiteux]

 

but older ship designs don´t make  a lot of sense with what we´ve got ingame currently. 

What about widening the scope of possibilities rather than narrowing it ?

Besides, we were talking about traders (fluyt), not frigates !

Moreover, the current lineup of ship isn't the final one. We don't have to build things around it : NA ship are to be from around 1690 to 1820 !!! That means that your fav' ships are to be ingame  .

Edited October 12, 2015 by LeBoiteux

[maturin]

Imagine what would happen to a game company that put Sopwith Camels in their WWII flight sim. They would be pilloried by the fans.

The 1690 timeline looks like an ill-advised artifact of the early design process, if you ask me. The devs clearly have no desire to double the number of ships by bringing in obsolete designs. And if there isn't going to be one galleon for every SoL and one fluyt for every brig, then there is no reason to ruin the immersion and aesthetic consistency of the game for the sake of a mere handful of archaic vessels. Either go fullbore anachronistic, or make Ingermanland the oldest ship in the game. That's what I say.