On Premium Ships and "Pay to Win"

[TheJRT]

It could also be farming resources too to build and replace ships.

 

Yes, that too

 

JRT

[Austrum]

What kind of a grind will there be? What exactly will the premium ships do to alleviate the grind?

 

Well mostly an economy grind I would guess though it greatly depends on if they will have some sort of leveling like in PoTBS but lets talk economy grind for the moment.

 

The way I see it you will start off with a fallback ship + maybe something like 100 gold at which point it is up to you to make your way in the world.  From this point you need to acquire wealth which you will use to upgrade to better ships and inevitably replace loses from sinking.  This obviously will require working (grinding) your way up.  

 

Buying a premium ship for real money however will let you bypass a portion of this grind.  Maybe your buy a Frigate right off the bat which allow you to be more successful in combat or a trader with a larger cargo space which allows you to trade more cargo in one run.  Additionally these premium ships never lose durability so you can repair them over and over and over, plus they offer a reduce cost of repair.  This acts to reduce the cost of replacement once this ship is sunk as compared to other ships you might own.  Obviously this means you potentially should be able to acquire wealth at a faster rate than someone without a premium ship.

 

On the other hand, it is not as big an advantage as you might think.  First lets say you buy a big trader or Frigate right off the bat and you get sunk.  Well you don't lose durability and your repair cost is less but remember your just starting out so you only have 100 gold and your running a large premium ship.....with a repair cost of 10,000 gold.  Guess what happens the first time you lose this ship?  Yep your back to being just like the rest of the players, at least until you have acquired 10,000 gold so you can repair your ship.

 

So a premium ship could make your initial grind a bit easier, if your lucky and don't get sunk.  Also potentially late in the game, when you have to resources to actually repair larger ships, it will make the burden of cost a bit easier to bear when you inevitable get sunk or captured and you won't have to worry about losing your 5 durability and being totally without a ship (though by this time, you will likely have the resources to just buy a new ship anyway).  Also you might be able to start off with buying some smaller premiums to help boost you along but that repair cost is still going to keep you honest so to speak and only allow you a slight boost in capability as your acquire wealth.  However, the vast majority and likely the best ships in the game are not going to be premium so even if you own a premium ship, more than likely it will end up being a fallback ship only due to the fact once you have the required wealth your going to want to use the best ships in the game.

 

So in summary.  A Premium ship will potentially allow you to increase your wealth faster, or at least reduce upkeep costs,  at least while your using that premium ship.  However, if you buy a premium ship that is outside your ability to keep repaired if you lose it, you have a useless premium ship.  This will prevent the dreaded "pay-to-win" scenario people fear. Further, your boost to acquiring wealth is only active if and when your using a premium ship which will likely only be at relatively short intervals for a majority of people.

[Magnum]

Yeah... sorry but no, do you even realize the problems behind such a system, not ingame, but irl, hundreds of semi constant micro-transactions, many credit cards would be blocked because of fraud... Its not as easy, plus, premium equipment has always worked for various different games, do you even realize how many people would not play the game because of the micro-transactions? Plus, how can you say that it't not pay-to-win? the players who pay would have a SIGNIFICANT advantage over those who dont... While they wouldn't with premium ships...

 

 

JRT

 

I do realize the problem of the Dev's not having an income from the ongoing play of the game - at some point they will wander off and not support it anymore. Do you have any ideas how to solve THAT?

 

I don't realize how many people would not play because of micro-transactions - do you have any actual statistics - or just a negative opinion?

 

But that is why I would propose taxing the more established players - say those who want to make and sell cannonballs and gunpowder - not just "all" players.

Edited April 7, 2015 by ampaholic

[Mirones]

you will have to repair the Prenium ships just like the normal ones wich will cost resources and can be just as or more expensiv than buying a new ship.

 

about P2W what is currently more overpowered on the Yacht compared to the Cutter? yes the Yacht is nothing more than a blingbling skin for the Cutter.

[scepo]

I think that premium ships should offer only a visual upgrade of a pre existing or soon to be added ship. No trade off in attributes should be made either.

 

As an alternate financing method I propose buying credits similar to eve online PLEX system basically buying in game currency. Maybe buying visual upgrades for ships or rare ship materials used to make better ships that would then be sold on market for in game currency. That is under assumption that there will be some kind of skill system that can not be circumvented as an obstacle to players advancing too fast.

 

Thought should be put on various sinks for in game currency and making a sustainable economy.

Edited April 7, 2015 by scepo

[Purple]

I do realize the problem of the Dev's not having an income from the ongoing play of the game - at some point they will wander off and not support it anymore. Do you have any ideas how to solve THAT?

 

I don't realize how many people would not play because of micro-transactions - do you have any actual statistics - or just a negative opinion?

 

But that is why I would propose taxing the more established players - say those who want to make and sell cannonballs and gunpowder - not just "all" players.

Why on earth do you think there will be cash flow problems anyway? there are many games that do well by selling the game once. they even closed down early access at the moment which shows that they don't  need money at the moment. the sell of premium ships and possibly cosmetics will keep the game afloat without resorting to the IOS idea of paying money to cut down build time or something of that nature. having a "Tax" you have to pay to fast travel will kill the game before it even begins as there are many people who would not spend the money on a game that forces you to pay money to speed up travel times in order to stay competitive with traders or for pirates or members of factions that are in conflict to engage each other. on the open sea. 

 

They have a solid game even now with just the sea combat they will do fine with just selling the game once it hits steam.

[Magnum]

Why on earth do you think there will be cash flow problems anyway?

 

snip ...

 

They have a solid game even now with just the sea combat they will do fine with just selling the game once it hits steam.

 

I only think that because of the history of other games - when the money dries up, so does the support and development. It sounds like you know it will never stop or slow down on the sales. Sorry, my ouija board is silent on that.

 

So your solution is "Do nothing" right?

 

Mine right now is to keep brainstorming - I think I have come around to the idea that a small tax on a lot of transactions carries too much "paperwork" burden with it.

 

I understand your opinion but - unlike you I am not so sure the game sales will fill the coffers (enough) for all time - so I am now leaning this way:

 

"IF" there is insufficient cash flow to maintain the servers and ongoing development by just the ongoing sale of the game, then the sale of premium ship "skins" would be a neat way to add to the coffers. However "IF" the premo skins are not enough - I would like to see a Fee or Tax on certain larger transactions rather than see the game dry up:

 

Some of the larger transactions I could see as being taxed or Fee based are (examples only) 1) the sale of 1st, 2nd and 3rd rates 2) the sale of manufacturing rights near a navy base 3) The sale of land owned by the Crown. 4) the right to copy maps owned by the Crown 4) the right to sell gunpowder and/or balls to the Crown's navy.

 

Imagination could provide others .... King George, Napoleon and George Washington all knew that a navy runs on MONEY!

[Birg]

People should take a look at Guild Wars 2.  Players have to buy the game, it has no subscription fee, but does include a microtransaction store.  The thing of it is, most items available in the store, that we pay real world money for, are either cosmetic gear, or account upgrades, such as extra bank storage, inventory space, additional player character slots, etc..  Players certainly can buy buffs to increase their rate of XP gain and such, but they also get them for free as random daily gifts.

 

It can be quite easy to generate a cash flow to keep the servers online and the devs working on improvements by simply offering microtransaction items that are either cosmetic or improve aspects of a player's account, like how many berths are available to store ships on your account.  I can see Game-Labs offering the sale of custom paint jobs to customize our ships, or special emblems to display on our sails as perhaps a mark of notoriety,  There are plenty of ways to generate cash flow w/o giving one player with deep pockets an advantage over another who is trying to complete college.

 

I won't pitch into the argument concerning FTP or paying our fair share.  The business model a developer chooses to maintain a game is a risk, and their responsibility.  If the devs choose poorly, everyone will lose, but the devs will lose most of all.

[Henry d'Esterre Darby]

People should take a look at Guild Wars 2.  Players have to buy the game, it has no subscription fee, but does include a microtransaction store.  The thing of it is, most items available in the store, that we pay real world money for, are either cosmetic gear, or account upgrades, such as extra bank storage, inventory space, additional player character slots, etc..  Players certainly can buy buffs to increase their rate of XP gain and such, but they also get them for free as random daily gifts.

 

It can be quite easy to generate a cash flow to keep the servers online and the devs working on improvements by simply offering microtransaction items that are either cosmetic or improve aspects of a player's account, like how many berths are available to store ships on your account.  I can see Game-Labs offering the sale of custom paint jobs to customize our ships, or special emblems to display on our sails as perhaps a mark of notoriety,  There are plenty of ways to generate cash flow w/o giving one player with deep pockets an advantage over another who is trying to complete college.

 

I won't pitch into the argument concerning FTP or paying our fair share.  The business model a developer chooses to maintain a game is a risk, and their responsibility.  If the devs choose poorly, everyone will lose, but the devs will lose most of all.

 

Admin has stated that they are planning to model the payment system off of GuildWars, if they end up actually doing so, you may be quite happy with the result.

[Flip]

People should take a look at Guild Wars 2.  Players have to buy the game, it has no subscription fee, but does include a microtransaction store.  The thing of it is, most items available in the store, that we pay real world money for, are either cosmetic gear, or account upgrades, such as extra bank storage, inventory space, additional player character slots, etc..  Players certainly can buy buffs to increase their rate of XP gain and such, but they also get them for free as random daily gifts.

 

It can be quite easy to generate a cash flow to keep the servers online and the devs working on improvements by simply offering microtransaction items that are either cosmetic or improve aspects of a player's account, like how many berths are available to store ships on your account.  I can see Game-Labs offering the sale of custom paint jobs to customize our ships, or special emblems to display on our sails as perhaps a mark of notoriety,  There are plenty of ways to generate cash flow w/o giving one player with deep pockets an advantage over another who is trying to complete college.

 

I won't pitch into the argument concerning FTP or paying our fair share.  The business model a developer chooses to maintain a game is a risk, and their responsibility.  If the devs choose poorly, everyone will lose, but the devs will lose most of all.

 

Except they sell in game currency, which, in a game like NA with a planned economy, will break it. Just look at when governments print cash.

[Magnum]

Except they sell in game currency, which, in a game like NA with a planned economy, will break it. Just look at when governments print cash.

 

Selling in game currency definitely becomes Pay2Win since then you can use the currency to buy more guns, Lieutenants and food for the crew - all things needed to win.

[Flip]

Selling in game currency definitely becomes Pay2Win since then you can use the currency to buy more guns, Lieutenants and food for the crew - all things needed to win.

Which is why when people mention guild wars 2 they need to note that gw2 makes most of its money not from cosmetics or boosters but from selling currency.

There is a simple reason why almost no game has continuing development funded solely from a cosmetic store - it doesn't bring in enough revenue unless it involves more than just cosmetics or spices them up AND has a huge player base (ie csgo gambling on cases for ultra rare skins).

This is what worries me about naval action, it wants to be a mmo, but that entails a long number of years of good support and continued development/content/additions. They propose to do this solely off of sales and then cosmetics, it might work, it might not, and I'd rather pay a subscription and have everyone on a level playing field rather than see micro transactions and boosts and the inevitable slide towards pay to win.

[Grim DeGrim]

We will have to wait and see what is actually tabled.  I have not seen a post where Admin has stated "we will sell in-game currency for IRL money".  But even if they do, how is that any different than any other game?  Sony Station games (PoTBs, Plantside 2, etc), Eve Online, War Thunder, World of Tanks -- they all sell ingame currency.  And two of the afore mentioned games are MMO's with player run economies.

 

TL;DR:  all speculation until we see what GL decides to do, and even "if" they sell currency, I'm not convinced it matters.

[Alex Starwind]

With Premium Ships I see following problem: Some rich kid bought Premium ship (which has no benefits compare to normal ones) and meet skilled player in the Ocean (this is open world game, so no levelling mechanism).

 

1st options: Premium ship destroyed and kid lost battle. Kid come on forum crying that he spend REAL MONEY and get no advantage (lost in fact) and spamming support demanding refund because GAME BROCKEN.

 

2nd option: Skilled player captured Premium ship, but it will be taken from him and returned to "legal owner" because Premium ships cant be lost. So guy , who master his skills will waste his time and likely will have to repair his own ship.

 

If Devs can avoid this problem, then nothing bad in Premium Ships. I personally think that "cosmetics" upgrades for real money (unique skins, personal flags/banners) will be much better options.    

[Flip]

We will have to wait and see what is actually tabled. I have not seen a post where Admin has stated "we will sell in-game currency for IRL money". But even if they do, how is that any different than any other game? Sony Station games (PoTBs, Plantside 2, etc), Eve Online, War Thunder, World of Tanks -- they all sell ingame currency. And two of the afore mentioned games are MMO's with player run economies.

TL;DR: all speculation until we see what GL decides to do, and even "if" they sell currency, I'm not convinced it matters.

They don't directly sell in game currency grim, and no the devs never said it but people are always referencing Gw2. There is a difference between selling items that are traded for in game money and those items, be it game time (eve), or in POTBS burning sea points get used on cosmetics or game time or whatever but the item IS used up, making the money just change hands, not be added to the system with no outlet. Gw2 actually just adds raw currency into the game, like the mint making more bills, this doesn't effect gw2 much because there is no economy in the game so it's fine, but it also makes the game all their money. Which is why on the surface the system looks good and successful, but the revenue is not from cosmetics.

[Purple]

With Premium Ships I see following problem: Some rich kid bought Premium ship (which has no benefits compare to normal ones) and meet skilled player in the Ocean (this is open world game, so no levelling mechanism).

 

1st options: Premium ship destroyed and kid lost battle. Kid come on forum crying that he spend REAL MONEY and get no advantage (lost in fact) and spamming support demanding refund because GAME BROCKEN.

 

2nd option: Skilled player captured Premium ship, but it will be taken from him and returned to "legal owner" because Premium ships cant be lost. So guy , who master his skills will waste his time and likely will have to repair his own ship.

 

If Devs can avoid this problem, then nothing bad in Premium Ships. I personally think that "cosmetics" upgrades for real money (unique skins, personal flags/banners) will be much better options.    

my understanding of captured ships is that the owner of the captured ship will receive his ship back premium or not and the ship will loose durability. the person who captures the ship will then be able to use the ship with one durability meaning the next time it gets knocked out in combat its lost forever. i could be wrong on how this works but its correct to the best of my knowledge.

[Bixol]

based on admins posts i am pretty sure it will work the following way (please correct me if i'm wrong):

If i own a premium ship and get sunk, or my ships gets captured, i loose 1 durability. As premium ships can't be lost i SUPPOSE they have infinite durability. Anyway you will have an expensive repair bill to pay in Order to sail the ship again.

on the other hand if i capture a premium ship i will get a 1 durabiloty ship with no upgrade slots.

if i loose it it will be gone forever!

[Jack Freedom]

...

 

If Devs can avoid this problem, then nothing bad in Premium Ships. I personally think that "cosmetics" upgrades for real money (unique skins, personal flags/banners) will be much better options.    

 

They have to make cosmetics a very personal thing. To serve as a form of expression so we feel unique from everybody else. Then they will sell tons of cosmetics.

Edited April 8, 2015 by Jack Freedom

[Schuetzengel]

1. buy premium ship

2. surrender before sinking for low repair cost

3.laugh at the enemy who captured a useless hull and have high repair costs on his ship

4.repair (for cheap) and repeat ad infinitum

 

"good" premium ships will be a good choice if you want to do some action far away from your shipbuilders base, as long as you have money to repair you can clutch to a port as a tick

 

the question is how good the premium ships will be compared to crafted ones?

High quality (exceptional) crafted ships will be better

so anything below exceptional wont be as good/will perform the same as a premium ship. also the way it seems you have to refit premium ships only once, 5-dura ships once per 5 and captured ships will come with the previous owners fittings?

next question is what ammount of economical work is necessary to produce a ship of exceptional quality? most of us work and some of us make good money. money=time, so there will be a break even point where it will be easier to buy a premium ship instead of do the economy or grind and buy one.

 

edit: just read that captured ships will be empty

Edited April 8, 2015 by Schuetzengel

[Austrum]

you will have to repair the Prenium ships just like the normal ones wich will cost resources and can be just as or more expensiv than buying a new ship.

 

about P2W what is currently more overpowered on the Yacht compared to the Cutter? yes the Yacht is nothing more than a blingbling skin for the Cutter.

 

Your statement doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

Form what I have read the benefit of buying a premium ship is it has unlimited durability plus lower repair costs.    That being the case, it should never be more expensive than buying a new ship.

 

For example:

 

Normal Ship:

 

New ship with 5 durability = 10,000 gold.

 

Ship sinks and now you have 4 durability + 2,000 gold repair cost.

 

Ship sinks 4 more times and you now have no ship plus your have spent 20,000 gold on up keep.  Now you have to spend 10,000 gold to buy a new one and start over.

 

 

Premium Ship:

 

New ship with unlimited durability = $50.00 CASH.  (You save 10,000 gold initial investment)

 

Ship sinks, you still have unlimited durability + 1,500 gold repair cost.

 

Ships sinks 5 times but still has unlimited durability and total repair at this point is only 7,500 gold.

 

 

Then lets look long term.  Ship sinks 20 times.  

 

Normal ship = 80,000 gold invested.

Premium ship = 30,000 gold invested.

 

Longer term.  Ship sinks 40 times.

 

Normal ship = 160,000 gold invested.

Premium ship = 60,000 gold invested.

 

Basically as long as you use the premium ship, your operation cost is going to be significantly cheaper which is what your $50 real world investment is buying you.... faster progression (due to progression really being tied to wealth) and convenience (easier to replace your ship, less wealth grind involved.)

 

However, as I mentioned earlier.  95% of the people who buy one or more premiums will still use non-premium ships 80% or greater of the time because they will want a 1st rate or several of the non-premium frigates will be better than the premium ones or because they like the looks of a particular non-premium ship or because they need a trader and cannot afford to by a premium version because they already by a premium frigate or whatever reason.  That being the case, the overall impact of premium ships will be rather small with most people using a premium at least eventually as fall back ships for when replacing their non-premium losses becomes too expensive.

[admin]

Your statement doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Form what I have read the benefit of buying a premium ship is it has unlimited durability plus lower repair costs. That being the case, it should never be more expensive than buying a new ship.

Wrong info. We have never guaranteed that it will have lower repair costs.

 

 

1. buy premium ship

2. surrender before sinking for low repair cost

3.laugh at the enemy who captured a useless hull and have high repair costs on his ship

4.repair (for cheap) and repeat ad infinitum

He won and progressed, raking kill, victories and promotions.

You got nothing + have to pay repairs

+ His ship is damaged but because he survived he uses OW repairs and is back in battle in no time.

+ Repeating ad infinitum will not work as you will run out of cash eventually despite lower surrender costs.

+ He still can use that hull (break up, give to admiralty as a prize etc)

[BungeeLemming]

Well this will only work if the OW repair is cheaper than the dockrepair.

Ofc you cannot have unlimited OW repairs on the ship.

 

But the surrendering captain should always have the greater repairbill. (well maybe there are cases when you have minor repairs but thatll be the exception)

[admin]

Well this will only work if the OW repair is cheaper than the dockrepair.

Ofc you cannot have unlimited OW repairs on the ship.

 

But the surrendering captain should always have the greater repairbill. (well maybe there are cases when you have minor repairs but thatll be the exception)

 

open world repair is a crafted consumable also available in stores. there is a limited amount you can carry of course. But enough to get through a good number of battles.

[BungeeLemming]

OW repair. is it seperated to the "in-battle"-repair?

 

I wonder:

Is a prize crew going to be a AI ship on the OW wich can be re-captured by some lucky enemy?

Or do you plan on teleporting the vessel to the next neutral or player's national port?

 

Else I really like what I read. You guys have a lot of forsight and seem to get most parts wich could possibly go wrong.

[Crankey]

Cross teaming could be a problem with unlimited captures available via the purchase of a premium ship.

 

This would have severe adverse effects on economy.

 

Should you buy a premium ship with unlimited captures (or unlimited benefits to the capturing captain in some form) or should you buy access to a particular vessel type that is purchased and lost in a standard manner but only available to those with a 'Premium license'. Said ship type providing loot and experience advantages, being outside any tech tree grind requirements etc. ?

Edited April 8, 2015 by Crankey