Seasoned Woods poll

[Redman29]

Confirmed BP and numbers

So 50 LH per log.

So not unreasonable to assume the BP for White Oak and 70 LH per log is correct. 

Edited December 1, 2019 by Redman29

[OjK]

What's next?

Change of mind in DLC policy, and actually launching a 1st Rate DLC (announced classic Victory?) so You force everyone to buy it, and sail easily made seasoned wood DLC 1st rates?

 

I seriously have no idea, what's wrong with this development team...

[admin]

5 hours ago, Navalus Magnus said:

@admin

Although I know it has been weekend for most of the time, since you released or unleashed the latest patch: I really would appreciate if you took a stand concerning the introduction of seasoned woods!

As far as I know you haven’t said yet, ...

- why you introduced them, ...

- or reacted to the abundance of criticism directed to that part of the patch in any other way.

You just ignored it, am I right?

As the intelligent human being you are you certainly know how it feels to be ignored. So please break start the new week by breaking the silence and joining the discussion.

Seasoned woods are historical and proper
It took up to 3 years to properly season woods for ship building (hence lots of labor hours).  It was a delicate process and could fail and produce rotten wood.

The following references are now used and will be used to improve and make shipbuilding slightly more historical
Shipbuilding of wood and iron - with great descriptions of seasnoning and wood types
https://archive.org/details/shipbuildinginir00murr/page/n6

Construction and fitting of English Man of War
https://www.amazon.com/Construction-Fitting-English-Man-War/dp/0870210165

Building the Wooden walls 
https://www.amazon.com/Building-Wooden-Walls-Construction-Valiant/dp/1557500789

And of course Ancre 4 volume 74  and Lavery 2 volume monograph on Ship of the Line


Seasoned woods have a clear method to get them, yet provide a money sink to those who do not like risk in getting them. 

[Malcolm3]

4 minutes ago, admin said:

Seasoned woods are historical and proper
It took up to 3 years to properly season woods for ship building (hence lots of labor hours).  It was a delicate process and could fail and produce rotten wood.

Actually I think, no one will argue that Seasoned Woods are not historical. Problem is balance between gameplay and historical reality, especially with random Blueprints and DLC ships that at dismantling are able to produce amount of such Seasoned Woods enough for light ships at least.

I personally still don't know -  was that move right or not (unlike with trade - that was great)

[Louis Garneray]

My understanding is that most navies would build ships with seasoned wood (so it would be by default).

[erelkivtuadrater]

@admin as you've written on the item Description of Teak, that its imported from India, why can i grow teak all over caribbean? Same as with mahogny, its describe to grow on Cuba, why is there amahogany fortest in North Carolina? Where is the historical and realistic reference to that? 

[Macjimm]

4 hours ago, vazco said:

admin One thing which should happen is removing seasoned wood from DLC ships. With current extreme prices of such wood, DLC ships gain a big advantage over non-dlc's.

The cost of crafting a seasoned wood ship is extreme, so it's unlikely that we will see huge numbers created at a rapid rate.  Slow expensive process = good.

But I agree with Vasco.  It seems much too easy to create DLC (s) wood ships.

There must be some sort of balance.  

[Liq]

17 minutes ago, admin said:

Seasoned woods are historical and proper

Historically it also took 5500+ oak trees and over 6 years for the HMS victory to launch

yet ingame for balance reasons it does not

[HachiRoku]

35 minutes ago, admin said:

Seasoned woods are historical and proper
It took up to 3 years to properly season woods for ship building (hence lots of labor hours).  It was a delicate process and could fail and produce rotten wood.

The following references are now used and will be used to improve and make shipbuilding slightly more historical
Shipbuilding of wood and iron - with great descriptions of seasnoning and wood types
https://archive.org/details/shipbuildinginir00murr/page/n6

Construction and fitting of English Man of War
https://www.amazon.com/Construction-Fitting-English-Man-War/dp/0870210165

Building the Wooden walls 
https://www.amazon.com/Building-Wooden-Walls-Construction-Valiant/dp/1557500789

And of course Ancre 4 volume 74  and Lavery 2 volume monograph on Ship of the Line


Seasoned woods have a clear method to get them, yet provide a money sink to those who do not like risk in getting them. 

when has a gold sink ever worked in this game? You are far to reactive to the economy. I am very ignorant when it comes to shipbuilding, crafting and the economy so I will not talk about that. I do however know my shit about the combat instance. I don't like it when there are major differences in ship designs. 

We have far to many mods in the game. You said you would nerf mods and you did. The problem is that you added port bonuses and now seasoned woods. So in reality you added more mods. 

These are the combat multipliers we currently have

3 Permant upgrades

5 Books

2 Wood Types

4 Port bonuses

That is 12 multipliers on one ship and the issue with them is that the best ship is not only vastly superior than the basic ship but that in most cases its the best players in the best ships. Because we still have multiple repairs those effects are even stronger the longer the battle goes on. Upgraded ships should be better than basic ships but the gaps are massive man. You say yourself that ram dinark in a basic ship will kill a noob in the best ship. Why do you need to make the inventory advantage so massive then when the game already has a major skill gap?!

The skill gap is the best thing naval action has and you need to promote that and NOT hide it behind MASSIVE inventory gaps. 

 

 

Edited December 1, 2019 by HachiRoku

[admin]

37 minutes ago, erelkivtuadrater said:

@admin as you've written on the item Description of Teak, that its imported from India, why can i grow teak all over caribbean? Same as with mahogny, its describe to grow on Cuba, why is there amahogany fortest in North Carolina? Where is the historical and realistic reference to that? 

You can grow teak anywhere in the tropical climate - which means anywhere in central america. It was more profitable to grow tobacco sugar and other export goods. If we limit it only to central america it would allow players to lock other players out of teak. Its really interesting that you never complain about unhistorical things you like. East India Company had maybe 100 ships at their disposal (most players have 25). Force yourself to only sail 1 ship, use only one dock (one base), use no teleports and reset your account after every loss of boarding or losing your ship if you bring complaints like this.  Some things are historical, some things are not. Its a game. 

[Malcolm3]

51 minutes ago, Macjimm said:

But I agree with Vasco.  It seems much too easy to create DLC (s) wood ships.

Come to some conclusion at last. I think that system of Seasoned Woods proper balanced should stay. But we have a breach in it with DLC ships, that can be source of Seasoned Woods therefore undermining whole idea.

So, @admin - Prohibit dismantling DLC-ships just like with Basic Cutter - you still can sell them for money, but can't use them as source of rare resources. However in that case decision should be made quick and implemented ever quicker, as people with many alts and DLC will gather stockpile of Seasoned Woods

[Navalus Magnus]

25 minutes ago, admin said:

Some things are historical, some things are not. Its a game. 

@admin Indeed!

And what exactly do you want to accomplish for the benefit of the quality of the game, by introducing seasoned woods as they are right now (locked behind a permit / blueprint, buffing ships a lot, forcing yet another grind to players)?

[HachiRoku]

15 minutes ago, Malcolm3 said:

Come to some conclusion at last. I think that system of Seasoned Woods proper balanced should stay. But we have a breach in it with DLC ships, that can be source of Seasoned Woods therefore undermining whole idea.

So, @admin - Prohibit dismantling DLC-ships just like with Basic Cutter - you still can sell them for money, but can't use them as source of rare resources. However in that case decision should be made quick and implemented ever quicker, as people with many alts and DLC will gather stockpile of Seasoned Woods

and yet another new feature that cannot be implemented correctly because of the fundamental flaws of the DLC model design. God I hate it when you have to compromise one thing to make the other thing work. It is so counter productive. 

[Malcolm3]

2 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

God I hate it when you have to compromise one thing to make the other thing work. It is so counter productive. 

It's absolutely normal actually - when you change part of whole system, then it's not surprisingly when something wowking earlier simply hampers the overall efficiency.

[HachiRoku]

36 minutes ago, Malcolm3 said:

It's absolutely normal actually - when you change part of whole system, then it's not surprisingly when something wowking earlier simply hampers the overall efficiency.

when exactly did DLC ships work? When they were OP or Nerfed? At what point did they have all the advantages and disadvantages of normal ships? Its only normal to change things if what you added was broken or the existing system was broken. If the existing system is good enough and already hard enough to balance you might want to avoid adding things that change fundamental things. 

You said earlier so please clarify when dlc worked. 

Edited December 1, 2019 by HachiRoku

[Navalus Magnus]

1 hour ago, Malcolm3 said:

I think that system of Seasoned Woods proper balanced should stay.

Well, as it seems right now, the majority of the participants of this poll thinks differently...

[Angus MacDuff]

2 hours ago, admin said:

Seasoned woods have a clear method to get them, yet provide a money sink to those who do not like risk in getting them.

@admin, I honestly don't have a problem with the seasoned wood concept.  My worry is that it will be very easy for the larger groups to get them and very difficult for the smaller clans/casuals/solos etc to acquire the shed.  There will be a very large imbalance for an extended period.  I don't mind grinding for the funds, but the permit seems to be very unattainable to all but the largest groups.  It should at least drop on occasion from a Captain's Chest....making it achievable for all.  It's entirely fair that a solo should take longer to grind than a big clan.

[Malcolm3]

23 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

You said earlier so please clarify when dlc worked. 

DLC ships were at last quite balanced a while ago. They were not too strong and have some weaknesses, so everyone have to use them. Also except Hercules (though she is quite fragile) and unique La Requin they all have similar ship that can be built with guaranteed bonuses (not random) and they are too small to participate properly in RVR. And still that ships give player ability to fight without establishing his own production chain (it is very costly and time consuming). Now that balance is a bit undermined as DLC ships have advantage of Seasoned Woods, but that can be repaired by lowering the possibility of getting bonuses to DLC ships, for example.

P. S. If they introduce 3rd rate DLC that will destroy the balance completely, though.

24 minutes ago, Navalus Magnus said:

Well, as it seems right now, the majority of the participants of this poll thinks differently...

Properly balanced is the main thing. Also it's too late to abolish newly introduced system, it's unreal

[z4ys]

Still waiting for the first mono dlc port battle fleet using seasoned woods.

shallow doesnt count small ships are no ships

[Navalus Magnus]

13 minutes ago, Malcolm3 said:

Properly balanced is the main thing.

Do you have an idea?

13 minutes ago, Malcolm3 said:

Also it's too late to abolish newly introduced system, it's unreal

The introduction of it was also some kind of „unreal“ ...

[erelkivtuadrater]

2 hours ago, admin said:

You can grow teak anywhere in the tropical climate - which means anywhere in central america. It was more profitable to grow tobacco sugar and other export goods. If we limit it only to central america it would allow players to lock other players out of teak. Its really interesting that you never complain about unhistorical things you like. East India Company had maybe 100 ships at their disposal (most players have 25). Force yourself to only sail 1 ship, use only one dock (one base), use no teleports and reset your account after every loss of boarding or losing your ship if you bring complaints like this.  Some things are historical, some things are not. Its a game. 

What do you know about what I like or not? I understand in the end its a game, but you're the one making me ask these questions because the DESCRIPTION of the item makes little sense, why would you write so it says explicit that it is grown in India, but somehow we can grow it on all islands of our liking, why not just write that its a tree sort that grows in tropical areas?

Its strange when you use say threedecks.com as reference to the armament on ships, but somehow gives totally other values to the ships. See french lineships, santissima with 42pd?? when you have the 36pd ingame (allowed to use now, but shouldn't be able to mount 42pd in 1st place).

It would be the same for port battles, I understand for gameplay and server management the rooms cant be unlimited amount of ships.

But the reason I always vouch for changes as close as possible to realism but still playable is because YOU described the game like that  "  Naval Action is a hardcore, realistic, and beautifully detailed naval combat sandbox immersing players into the experience of the most beautiful period of naval history - when sailing ships ruled the seas. "

I would never go into say Sea of Thieves, make a huge forum post and tell the devs that a ship cant be sailed by 1  man, and you cant reload the cannon, because you would have to remove hot debris, and pushing that several tons cannon back to firing position.

Edited December 1, 2019 by erelkivtuadrater

[Guest]

2 hours ago, admin said:

You can grow teak anywhere in the tropical climate - which means anywhere in central america. It was more profitable to grow tobacco sugar and other export goods. If we limit it only to central america it would allow players to lock other players out of teak. Its really interesting that you never complain about unhistorical things you like. East India Company had maybe 100 ships at their disposal (most players have 25). Force yourself to only sail 1 ship, use only one dock (one base), use no teleports and reset your account after every loss of boarding or losing your ship if you bring complaints like this.  Some things are historical, some things are not. Its a game. 

I think the main problem is you talk about historical accuracy to justify things but you are happy to ignore it when its convenient to you. I am more than happy when historically themed games make an effort to be accurate but I have to admit it often doesn't make for stimulating gameplay. Yes its historically inaccurate that we can teleport from port to port, command multiple ships and build a first rate in under a 30 year time span but these are things we have because it is a for-profit game and it has to walk the balance between fun and grind, the RPG loop of Explore - Collect - Spend - Improve so we have these inaccurate conveniences to prevent the grind from becoming too much and players giving up through fatigue. 

You know what isn't historically accurate. Loki Runes, Unlimited Cannon Balls, No Provision Requirements, Buying a thousand sailors in a pub on a small island to man your L'Ocean, Russia in the Caribbean, and the Port Town of New Edinburgh still existing in this time period.

These are all things you implemented even though you knew they were inaccurate. You can't flap your arms talking about Historical accuracy to justify a badly thought out feature when you blatantly ignore historical accuracy  to add in other features in the same update. Sorry but that excuse doesn't fly for me.

But if you want to build a rouge-like game that locks players to one ship, one portbase and instant restart if they lose then do let me know because I would love to play something like that.

[Malcolm3]

27 minutes ago, Navalus Magnus said:

Do you have an idea?

Still not - it's hard to invent something simple and suitable both for gameplay and for easiness of implementing

36 minutes ago, Navalus Magnus said:

The introduction of it was also some kind of „unreal“ ...

That's another story unfortunately.

[Navalus Magnus]

1 hour ago, Malcolm3 said:

Still not - it's hard to invent something simple and suitable both for gameplay and for easiness of implementing

What about the following?

- remove the seasoning hut and permit stuff

- link the quality of wood to its time resting / seasoning in the warehouse, after harvesting it

- or - as someone else already put it, - if you want to craft a ship with seasoned wood, there should be a timer for the launch of this vessel (e.g. you craft a l‘Ocean and want the seasoned wood version, than you need to wait ... maybe 24 hours before the ship can be used).

These realisations/ modifications would allow everyone to have seasoned woods, without extra grind and costs except more time. The last variation would furthermore hem immediate replacements of seasoned wood vessels. 

[z4ys]

38 minutes ago, Navalus Magnus said:

 

- link the quality of wood to its time resting / seasoning in the warehouse, after harvesting it

 

Warehouse is full of wood. Would be kind of fake.

I do like that people now sail out and trying to hunt those privateer fleets. Its a matter of time till people figure out to intercept those fleets and turn it into ow Trafalgar battles.