Robert Danforth Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 My inkling is to say "no" but then I'm not sure what skills or empire-building is going to be like in the game. In EU IV, religion is extremely important, but that's because there are a lot of factors going on in building an empire. In Naval Action, we're mostly shooting at each other for much more specious reasons. For example, as a Captain in His Britannic Majesty's Royal Navy, it's pretty likely I'm going to hate the French regardless of what their religion is. And despite Spain's Catholicism, it may be possible that I'm allied with them, and that's more important. Religion was fairly important in this era, but most of the time it was just used an excuse to go to war, not the real cause (which was probably greed more than anything else). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Pullings Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Speaking as a professional historian with a specialization in the study of religion, I can say that faith and religion are human phenomena that have always had a large role and influence in human societies, even now. The 17th-18th centuries were no different and not particularly special in that regard. Indeed, if anything, religion was waning as a social force during that period. And both played mere perfunctory roles on fighting ships of the period for the most part. As noted above, superstition was much more pronounced than religious faith on the ships of the nations modeled in this game, and had a much greater practical influence. I see NO place for either in the game mechanics. Faith and religion are important in present societies (witness US politics). But you don't see it implemented in WoT or contemporary martial games or almost any other game not specifically targeted at and for religious end users. Naval Action is a game about...well...er...naval action, fighting ships of sail on the high seas. Even as an open world sandbox, faith and religion should be merely part of the contextual backdrop. Ports can have churches or missions, just as they can have pirate dens and markets, and governmental palaces. I would expect naval trade to include all traffic faithful to the period, which might include the occasional Jesuit missionary or supplies on a given ship. Please do not make it a part of game mechanics any way, particularly a way that would tend to exaggerate its importance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johny Reb Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I consider myself a man of faith and therefore the addition of some faith element into the game is attractive to me but the more I think about it the harder it becomes to believe that it won't become a "magic" skill of some sort. Admins, you always seem one step ahead of where I think you are which gives me reason to believe that you already have ideas of implementation. If so, what are they? I think the only proper place for religion would be in the building of clan own cities but I think it needs to be left on the docks and not taken to sea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaos Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 As a background/culture kind of element for atmospheric effects why not? As long as it doesn't influence gameplay and stays within the limits of decoration and cosmetics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim DeGrim Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Faith can be an extension of morale. If morale mechanics are implemented, I doubt that will be touted as magic. Having a "man of faith" on a ship should produce a moral bonus. This person would fill one of your available officer slots. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry d'Esterre Darby Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 You missed the med and a lot of Muslim factions like Turkey that will be in game. I think we have to keep it real though and ask what role religion ever played in battle during this era. It all seems to cancel itself out and cannot possibly have an effect on battle. But it would be nice to have funeral ceremonies and such. The Sunday mass perhaps stopping a crew from fighting on a sunday? The most I would probably like to see though is his most catholic majesty and such unless you are going to make an RTS out of this or crew mechanics that allow for an irish rebellion Sunday Mass wasn't even practiced by many Royal Navy Captains - if there wasn't a parson on board, they'd just read parts of the Articles of War that might apply to situations they were concerned about. The reason the crew might be much less apt to fight on Sunday was much less about any sermon, and far more about keeping their "nice" clothes in good condition. Woe betide the sailor who messed up his Sunday best - you couldn't just buy a new coat or hose out in the middle of nowhere. Waste of time and dancing on the edge of magic. Many navies and crews were not monofaith at the time anyways. All these supposed bonuses for crew should come with a negative for the crew that don't practice that faith, making it a wash. Some crews did not like having men of faith on board at all. Very religious captains could be deeply unpopular. This. Men of faith were often considered bad luck aboard British ships. And "blue light" Captains, who were very serious about a pious ship, often didn't allow the little pleasures that the sailors so much enjoyed, such as women of pleasure aboard while in port. Some were even abstemious to the point of not allowing anything but the minimum required alcohol aboard. The idea of "Add a Parson and get a morale bonus" isn't necessarily a historically correct one, at least for the Royal Navy. Further, as mentioned above, many crews were of mixed faiths, everything from animism to Catholic, Protestant, Muslim, etc. If you want to roleplay that your ship espouses a certain religion, more power to you, but I just don't think we need to waste time on mechanics around that aspect. The European seaman was the most blasphemous, irreligious social type since the Huns. And shipboard pastors were bad luck. Again, this. Well stated sir. My inkling is to say "no" but then I'm not sure what skills or empire-building is going to be like in the game. In EU IV, religion is extremely important, but that's because there are a lot of factors going on in building an empire. In Naval Action, we're mostly shooting at each other for much more specious reasons. For example, as a Captain in His Britannic Majesty's Royal Navy, it's pretty likely I'm going to hate the French regardless of what their religion is. And despite Spain's Catholicism, it may be possible that I'm allied with them, and that's more important. Religion was fairly important in this era, but most of the time it was just used an excuse to go to war, not the real cause (which was probably greed more than anything else). A Captain in the Royal Navy usually didn't hate the French as such. In fact, there was very little rancor towards the French people and those who served in her military. That doesn't mean you'd do your darndest to sink, burn or take a prize a French Ship, or gleefully bombard a French shore battery - but that was your business. Once your "enemy" struck, they became respected gentlemen, far from being hated. You might hate Buonapart with a passion, but you usually didn't hate your counterparts in the military. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnum Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Please - just no. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim DeGrim Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Hi Henry, I cannot refute as I am no history major. However the first article of war by the Royal Navy specifically references faith. It seems to suggest that chaplains & etc did accompany ships. Without trying to be dramatic... It the VERY FIRST article before all others. It must have played some part: THE ARTICLES OF WAR 1757 All commanders, captains, and officers, in or belonging to any of His Majesty's ships or vessels of war, shall cause the public worship of Almighty God, according to the liturgy of the Church of England established by law, to be solemnly, orderly and reverently performed in their respective ships; and shall take care that prayers and preaching, by the chaplains in holy orders of the respective ships, be performed diligently; and that the Lord's day be observed according to law. --- Food for thought. It isn't a game breaker for me either way. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim DeGrim Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 For all concerned it will create a Rift... Valid concerns, but perhaps overstated: Many games have faith in passive ways. I doubt the intent is to perform "holy rituals" add part of game play. Instead, it is to add another layer of depth and create content (either outside or as part of ship mechanics). Many games use it (eg, all of the Rome Total War series, Crusader Kinhs) and we don't think twice about it. Be open to the thought. Character development, role play, minor impacts (morale example), design of towns, resistance to port captures that results in unrest and additional cost to upkeep a garrison for control). Interactions with aboriginal people's, missioning (in the pve sense, not in the "religous-going-on-a-journey" sense). The goal is sandbox. That means opportunity. Which means different strokes for different folks. Just be open minded to different layers of game play that add depth. Ps-mobile phone, I apologize in advance for poor auto-correct and a lack of proof reading) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mouse of war Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 no - it would be silly 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim DeGrim Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 no - it would be sillyFor the sake of understanding, how exactly is it silly, and describe how you feel it will degrade game play. As I've indicated earlier, I'm not invested in the ultimate solution... But feel that a yes/no response deserves some context that the development team can consider. Please read as a genuine inquiry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galileus Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 I'll double for Grim here, and ask people to at least indicate what they're opposed to. I am in the "faith? not in my game!" camp, but still I wouldn't mind churches and religions existing in the game world (just not being a major gameplay element). Just saying "no" on the other hand is silly and doesn't help no-one. It's like leaving devs to a guessing game how far are you willing to "no", and if it's up for guessing, they will simply ignore it. As any sane person would. Are you opposed to faith and religion being element of gameplay? Are you opposed to religions being able to send you on their own quests? Being a trade partner? Being in the game? Are you opposed to existance of religion at all and think there shouldn't be even as much as a mention of it, and all "oh my god!" in dialogue should be swapped to "bless me... wait, no... "jesu... wait, also no... something else? If you take your time to answer, take your time to answer. If you're not willing to do so, do not do so. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim DeGrim Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 You had some good ideas there for being in the "no" camp ... Trade partners, missions, what about donating bounty to increase standing and/or prestige... There is a huge PVE component that can be developed here (think sandbox... Meaning it is your choice to pursue or not to pursue). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry d'Esterre Darby Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Hi Henry, I cannot refute as I am no history major. However the first article of war by the Royal Navy specifically references faith. It seems to suggest that chaplains & etc did accompany ships. Without trying to be dramatic... It the VERY FIRST article before all others. It must have played some part: THE ARTICLES OF WAR 1757 All commanders, captains, and officers, in or belonging to any of His Majesty's ships or vessels of war, shall cause the public worship of Almighty God, according to the liturgy of the Church of England established by law, to be solemnly, orderly and reverently performed in their respective ships; and shall take care that prayers and preaching, by the chaplains in holy orders of the respective ships, be performed diligently; and that the Lord's day be observed according to law. --- Food for thought. It isn't a game breaker for me either way. There's a reason the United States has the 1st Amendment barring state sponsored religion, and that's a prime example. That article doesn't say a Chaplain must be on board, only that Sunday be observed, and effectively, that if a Chaplain is preaching, that it be the dogma of the Church of England. I never said Chaplains weren't ever aboard ship, I did say that many sailors didn't like them there, and that "Blue Light" Captains that tried to run their ships perfectly within the teachings of the church were often quite unpopular with the crew. "It's Sunday, we'll rig church and eat our special Sunday meal." Yes, required. "It's Sunday, and the ship's Chaplain is going to lecture you on sin for an hour." Not required. I'll restate for the record - I'm against Religion being used aboard ship for morale or performance boosts of any kind. I'm adamantly for religion to be used for missions, land based organizations, etc. Even possibly prestige increases for tithing to a limited degree would be ok with me. I just don't want "Ships Parson" to be a required piece of equipment to get extra bonuses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim DeGrim Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 No. But sounds like a good measure of how compliant your crew was to following orders (versus mutiny). An indicator for Crew management? Great feedback, btw. PS-reread your post, good clarification at the bottom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Galileus Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 You had some good ideas there for being in the "no" camp ... Trade partners, missions, what about donating bounty to increase standing and/or prestige... There is a huge PVE component that can be developed here (think sandbox... Meaning it is your choice to pursue or not to pursue). I had the great ideas? Boy, you got your bullzeye right there. IMHO religions and such should have mostly political meaning. Don't ask me for historical background, because I don't have one. Still, they simply fit the gameplay element - allow them to be a safe card or a boost to prestige/political standings. Even more importantly, this is a perfect place to allow players to remove / limit the price on their head (for a CONSIDERABLE donation or a quest line, obviously). For me, it fits perfectly. Obviously that idea being a part of the bigger picture Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crankey Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 What we have to remember is that the Devs have been kind enough to open the debate on this subject on the forums. I very much doubt they are saying that you have to change or take up a faith in order to take part ! How much depth faith adds to the game will potentially be influenced by your replies. Also remember that player choice will decide whether you wish to get involved in matters of faith or not. Just because your personal view is a "no" it doesn't mean there is no use for it. If you don't want to have a man of faith on board ship, then stick to the articles of war. As a player it is your choice whether you use the stick or the carrot... Some players will solely pvp, others pve, others will find satisfaction in crafting and the economy of the game, Other swill revel in running their own towns. It doesn't mean that they would want other areas of the game not to exist, merely that they are less interested in them personally. Keep an open mind, push out some ideas so that the Devs can make an objective decision on what may be possible, without forcing Faith down every players throats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bixol Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Completely irrelevant feature IMO. +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnum Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 For the sake of understanding, how exactly is it silly, and describe how you feel it will degrade game play. As I've indicated earlier, I'm not invested in the ultimate solution... But feel that a yes/no response deserves some context that the development team can consider. Please read as a genuine inquiry. Just plain NO - no need to "explain" what silly means is there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crankey Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Well I respect anyone who has simply voted 'No' it is your right to answer the Devs as you see fit. But I would hope those who would like to contribute suggestions of a 'yes' nature will be allowed to view them without getting shouted down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grim DeGrim Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2241005/Lost-Spanish-treasure-worth-500million-reclaimed-sunken-19th-Century-galleon-unveiled.html Treasures lost at sea (in essence, treasure hunt). Perhaps not the best example, but recovering artifacts for reputation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CommodoreWesley Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Religion will only make a difference for those who like to role play. I don't think that it would have a major effect on gameplay. Truthfully, it would be easier to imagine the religious aspect than to fully implement it into the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mirones Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 there can only one Religion abord oared ships and galeys. King Wheyland the third 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Pullings Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Again, I will point out what I believe to be a significant presupposition that is in error in the framing of the question: "Faith and religion played a huge role in the society and the fabric of life in 18 century." If the question is founded in particular on this assumption, then that is the problem. The "Enlightenment" was, in significant part, a reaction to what was considered to be the significant problems of theocracies of the middle ages and from the middle of the 17th c. on, religion played an increasingly smaller and smaller role in western european and American society. If the developers want to include a social phenomenon that played a "huge role" in society and the "fabric of life" at the time, they could ask about including science in the game. I can't see how that would make much sense in this game either, and certainly wouldn't vote for it, but I can warrant that on board a ship at war, facility with chronometers and mathematics and geography had a much bigger impact on success than faith. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnum Posted January 19, 2015 Share Posted January 19, 2015 Again, I will point out what I believe to be a significant presupposition that is in error in the framing of the question: "Faith and religion played a huge role in the society and the fabric of life in 18 century." If the question is founded in particular on this assumption, then that is the problem. The "Enlightenment" was, in significant part, a reaction to what was considered to be the significant problems of theocracies of the middle ages and from the middle of the 17th c. on, religion played an increasingly smaller and smaller role in western european and American society. If the developers want to include a social phenomenon that played a "huge role" in society and the "fabric of life" at the time, they could ask about including science in the game. I can't see how that would make much sense in this game either, and certainly wouldn't vote for it, but I can warrant that on board a ship at war, facility with chronometers and mathematics and geography had a much bigger impact on success than faith. +1 Especially when measuring powder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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