Patch 29. Sextant, shallow water changes, improvements in the User interface.

[Vernon Merrill]

I’ve killed 2 surprises in the shallows with my Prince over the past two days.  

I think it’s great that it’s motivating some people to fight instead of run.  

[LeBoiteux]

38 minutes ago, traitorous mctraitoro said:

But Who knows better to actually give it time to test first

Indeed !!! 

However, here is my 2 cent 🙂

First, the broadside weight, ie the power of one broadside with guns (not caronades) (by ascending order) :

1) Rattlesnake Heavy : 24 x 6-pdr (72 pdr)

2) Niagara : 20x 9-pdr (90 pdr)

3) Le Requin : 24x 9-pdr (108 pdr)

4) Cerberus : 26x 9-pdr (117 pdr)

5) Pandora : 22x 9-pdr + 6x 6-pdr ? (117 pdr ?)

➜ Why not adding here, the light version of La Surprise, L’Unité with only 24 x 8-pdr + 6 x 4-pdr (120 pdr) ? (Same 3d model but lighter armament.)

6) La Renommée : 26x 9-pdr + 4x 6-pdr (129 pdr)

----------------------------------------    Maybe the shallows should be allowed only up to La Renommée ? ---------------------

7) Surprise : 24x 9-pdr + 14x 6-pdr (150 pdr)

8 ) Hercules : 10x 18-pdr + 20x 9-pdr + 4x 6-pdr (192 pdr)

Edited December 23, 2018 by LeBoiteux

[z4ys]

Was a bit unhappy as the hostility order had no shipwreck and instead l'ocean

Joke apart. Infobox is showing a wrong tooltip

Edited December 23, 2018 by z4ys

[LeBoiteux]

6 minutes ago, rediii said:

who cares about long/medium setup in shallows?

Shallows is carronade only meta

The caliber of the caronades depending on that of the guns, the results are certainly very similar.

Figures here for information.

Could be recalculated with caro.

 

"who cares about..."

"blabla only meta" 

Mum is calling, kid. Time to go to bed.

[LeBoiteux]

1 minute ago, rediii said:

guess you noticed you made a useless calculation there

Me not understand

[LeBoiteux]

On 12/11/2018 at 12:32 PM, admin said:

Shallow water based on draught of ships (experimental change)

• All ships below 4m draught will be allowed into shallow waters and shallow water battles
• This includes
  • Cerberus
  • Renommee
  • Pandora
  • Surprise (L Unite)
• Hercules and LRQ will be allowed into shallow port battles. 

To make light 9-pdr frigates (Cerberus, Renommee, Pandora, Surprise) funnier and more competitive in combat either against LRQ and (maybe) bigger frigates, their acceleration in the first meters from 0kt on (by say 0-100/200 m) should be increased to make them closer to that of LRQ (and to a certain extend, closer to a corvette like the Rattlesnake), even/especially if it means nerfing their thickness.

All LRQ and light frigates carry about 24/6 guns of 9-pdr and have a crew of 210-250 men. IRL La Renommée could sail at 15 kt (from British reports) and the Surprise was a (heavy) corvette.

Make those 'light frigates' really light, meaning with that feeling of being able to quickly jump on the enemy and fire close that we have with the smallest ships of NA (ie those currently labeled '7th-6th' ships).

PS : I'm talking here about increasing acceleration, not about max speed.

Edited December 26, 2018 by LeBoiteux

[William Death]

1 hour ago, LeBoiteux said:

I'm talking here about increasing acceleration, not about max speed.

They accelerate just fine. 

Mast thickness and HP is what needs buffing on these little ships. No way Hercules should have masts same thickness but higher HP and a smaller hitbox than Surprise.

 

Regarding side HP and thickness: they are weak enough as is compared to the larger frigates. Remember you can’t just adjust them to balance with the 6th rates because then they’ll be out of balance with the larger frigates. Frigate=/=6th rate. You want a fast and light ship for the shallows for hit and run fighting? Sail a 6th rate and save on BR. You want a heavier brawler? Give up some BR for a light frigate.

 

Before we mess up parts of the small frigate balance that are working (like toughness and acceleration), we should first fix the parts of small frigate balance that aren’t working (like masts and speeds). 

Speaking of speeds, the various balancing attempts over the last year have resulted in all frigates being a touch too slow. Especially the larger frigates which were hit harder by the speed nerfs than the smaller ones. Rather than nerf the base speeds to try to balance the super speed mod stacking, a better option would be to introduce reduced returns for mod stacking so that as you stack mods, they don’t achieve 100% efficiency. First/highest bonus mod is 100% effective, next is 85%, 3rd is 75% 4th is 50%, etc. 

[LeBoiteux]

1 hour ago, William Death said:

They accelerate just fine. 

Mast thickness and HP is what needs buffing on these little ships. No way Hercules should have masts same thickness but higher HP and a smaller hitbox than Surprise.

Regarding side HP and thickness: they are weak enough as is compared to the larger frigates. Remember you can’t just adjust them to balance with the 6th rates because then they’ll be out of balance with the larger frigates. Frigate=/=6th rate. You want a fast and light ship for the shallows for hit and run fighting? Sail a 6th rate and save on BR. You want a heavier brawler? Give up some BR for a light frigate.

Before we mess up parts of the small frigate balance that are working (like toughness and acceleration), we should first fix the parts of small frigate balance that aren’t working (like masts and speeds). 

Speaking of speeds, the various balancing attempts over the last year have resulted in all frigates being a touch too slow. Especially the larger frigates which were hit harder by the speed nerfs than the smaller ones. Rather than nerf the base speeds to try to balance the super speed mod stacking, a better option would be to introduce reduced returns for mod stacking so that as you stack mods, they don’t achieve 100% efficiency. First/highest bonus mod is 100% effective, next is 85%, 3rd is 75% 4th is 50%, etc. 

It all depends on what you want out of those ships :

• You want to make them competitive against bigger frigates (12-pdr and 18-pdr).
• I want to take the opportunity of their being allowed in shallows to make them funnier to sail against what they will actually meet (7th-6th rates). Also to make them more used.

1 hour ago, William Death said:

Frigate=/=6th rate. You want a fast and light ship for the shallows for hit and run fighting? Sail a 6th rate and save on BR.

Actually, at the time of her building (1794), French considered the Surprise, the heavier ships among the 4 new ships entering shallows, not as a frigate, not even as a light frigate, but as a corvette like the Rattlesnake, both built during the same period (1780-1790). Corvettes  are smaller 3-masted ships, more lightly armed than frigates (up to say 24x 9-pdr on their GD in the 1790's).

La Renommée is an early frigate : 1744, built at the same period as LRQ (1750). And she was fast (15 kt).

The Cerberus, Renommee, Pandora and Surprise are 9-pdr vessels, like LRQ.

Their main opponents could be considered more as being 6th-Rates than 12-pdr and 18-pdr frigates.

I'd like them to work like French Corvettes/Light frigates of the XVIIIth century : fast (ie in game with a good acceleration) and quite fragile.

Btw, right now, in-game Cerberus, Renommee and Surprise are rated 5th Rates, but in a game like NA mixing ships from 1680 to 1820, from a point of view of 1805 a la NA, such 9-pdr ships could probably be rated 6th Rates.

Just a point of view.

 

Edited December 26, 2018 by LeBoiteux

[William Death]

42 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

It all depends on what you want out of those ships :

• You want to make them competitive against bigger frigates (12-pdr and 18-pdr).
• I want to take the opportunity of their being allowed in shallows to make them funnier to sail against what they will actually meet (7th-6th rates). Also to make them more used.

Fair enough, and I get the logic behind your suggestions, but no amount of stats changes will make Rattlesnake, NavyBrig, or Mercury competitive with Surprise/Cerb/Renom. Only a massive BR change would see that happen, and that would just mean a new meta to spam in patrol zone and PBs.

That’s why the rating system is silly. Just compare ships based on their cannon weight and things look a lot better. Belle Poule/Santa Cecilia/L’Hermione are “frigates” but they are outclassed by Trinco/Endy/Indef/Connie which are also “frigates”. Makes a lot more sense though when you think about it as 18 and 24pd ships outclassing 12pd ships. Similarly in shallows we have 9pd ships wrecking 6pd ships....that makes sense.

*Cue the players who will provide a handful of screenshots of reasonably good players in 6th rates clubbing some noobs in DLCs and 5th rates, “proving” the previous statement to be false*

anyways....

Surprise and Renommee used to be sailed all the time for solo PvP. You don’t see them now for 3 reasons: masts are lol weak; they are a little too slow for their meager firepower; and because the sailing profiles of all square rigged ships are now essentially the same, larger ships can match speeds and sailing profiles with the small frigates, given the right mods. Basically...why sail a teak Surprise when a fir Endy is faster, tougher, has better firepower, more crew, etc? Or why take a Renom when L’Hermione will also reach the speed cap downwind?

Fix these issues and they’ll see use again. Try to balance them more in line with the 6th rates and you’ll wind up with 4 ships (I’m including Hercules here, although it already outclasses all three other small frigates) that are essentially useless (more so than now) in deep water but still remain queens of the shallows. 10 18pd or 24pd carros per side can’t compete with a carro Surprise or Reno, no matter how much HP you nerf.

[LeBoiteux]

1 hour ago, William Death said:

Try to balance them more in line with the 6th rates and you’ll wind up with 4 ships (...) that (...) still remain queens of the shallows. 10 18pd or 24pd carros per side can’t compete with a carro Surprise or Reno, no matter how much HP you nerf.

If so, remove Cerberus, Renommée, Pandora and Surprise's ability to carry caronades (or reduce their caliber). Carronades were however of late use (from about 1779 on the British Navy, later in the French one) :

• RL La Renommée (1744) never carried caronades.
• RL Pandora (1779) never carried caronades according to threedecks.org.
• RL Surprise never carried carronades during her French service and only on her quaterdeck and forecastle during part of her British service.
• RL Cerberus (1758-1778) never carried caronades, being too early (also according to threedecks.org).

Make those light frigates real 18th-century corvettes/light frigates of the shallows.

 

Edited December 26, 2018 by LeBoiteux

[Ouwe Knar]

You all deserve a statue,

This forum became un-readable for most people.

The socalled  >indept< detailed issues are going to look more and more like a flightsimulator with ships.

Not one person new to this game can keep up with all the technicalities of a 2D flat monitor filling buginfested memory.

You all deserve a medal*

[LeBoiteux]

11 minutes ago, Ouwe Knar said:

You all deserve a statue,

This forum became un-readable for most people.

The socalled  >indept< detailed issues are going to look more and more like a flightsimulator with ships.

Not one person new to this game can keep up with all the technicalities of a 2D flat monitor filling buginfested memory.

You all deserve a medal*

IMHO, to make Cerberus, Renommée, Pandora and Surprise funnier/lighter* in shallows, one could :

• buff their acceleration
• nerf the thickness
• and, if needed, reduce the caliber of their caronades or even remove them

What's so 'indept' ?

 

______________

(* making them more like corvettes such as USS Rattlesnake)

 

[Slim McSauce]

What all shallow water ships need is a compliment of swivel guns on their decks. 1 year and only 2 or so ships fitted with the swivels is a crime.

Edited December 26, 2018 by Slim McSauce

[Vernon Merrill]

6 hours ago, Ouwe Knar said:

You all deserve a statue,

This forum became un-readable for most people.

The socalled  >indept< detailed issues are going to look more and more like a flightsimulator with ships.

Not one person new to this game can keep up with all the technicalities of a 2D flat monitor filling buginfested memory.

You all deserve a medal*

Candy Crush is fun, I hear... Simple and easy to understand.  

[Ouwe Knar]

8 hours ago, Vernon Merrill said:

Candy Crush is fun, I hear... Simple and easy to understand.  

But Candy crush doesnt cost that much...

I got all DLC and its worth every penny ..

but some here are never satisfied it seems..

IMy opinion is that some here dont have a clue how they killing this game instead of helping developing it for theire own greed and beta male expectations.

[Licinio Chiavari]

On 12/23/2018 at 1:25 PM, LeBoiteux said:

Indeed !!! 

However, here is my 2 cent 🙂

First, the broadside weight, ie the power of one broadside with guns (not caronades) (by ascending order) :

1) Rattlesnake Heavy : 24 x 6-pdr (72 pdr)

2) Niagara : 20x 9-pdr (90 pdr)

3) Le Requin : 24x 9-pdr (108 pdr)

4) Cerberus : 26x 9-pdr (117 pdr)

5) Pandora : 22x 9-pdr + 6x 6-pdr ? (117 pdr ?)

➜ Why not adding here, the light version of La Surprise, L’Unité with only 24 x 8-pdr + 6 x 4-pdr (120 pdr) ? (Same 3d model but lighter armament.)

6) La Renommée : 26x 9-pdr + 4x 6-pdr (129 pdr)

----------------------------------------    Maybe the shallows should be allowed only up to La Renommée ? ---------------------

7) Surprise : 24x 9-pdr + 14x 6-pdr (150 pdr)

8 ) Hercules : 10x 18-pdr + 20x 9-pdr + 4x 6-pdr (192 pdr)

I always see a misleading issue speaking of pounds with damage not scaling at same rate.

Let's look at "broadside output" in place of "weight" (using meds just to simplify).

- H.Rattle : 12x43 (6pds) = 516 dmg.

- Niagara : 10x45 (9pds) = 450 dmg.

- Requin : 12x45 (9pds) = 540 dmg.

- Cerberus : 13x45 (9pds) = 585 dmg.

- Pandora : 11x45 (9pds) + 3x43 (6pds) = 624 dmg.

- Renomee : 13x45 (9pds) + 2x43 (6pds) = 671 dmg.

- Surprise : 12x45 (9pds) + 7x43 (6pds) = 841 dmg.

- Hercules : 5x55 (18pds) + 10x45 (9pds) + 2x43 (6pds) = 811 dmg.

Same work could be done with carros.

 

And it could lead to underline the NA power of smaller ships vs. bigger.

As an example.

Bellona meds broadside output.

14x60 (32pds) + 14x58 (24pds) + 9x45 (9pds) = 2057 dmg.

Surprise broadside weight is 150pd, Bellona is 865pd. Apparently almost 6 times higher.

But in truth, Bellona damage output is 2057 v 841 of a Surprise. Less than two times and half: meaning that 3 crappy corvettes outdps a SoL (obviously at point blank due to penetration; still not a problem being faster and nimbler and keeping this as example of NA balancing issues among different ship especially thinking to weakness of SoL vs. frigates).

 

Broadside balancing should take into account damage output far more than "broadside weight".

 

 

[Hethwill]

Do not look only to broadside weight. We do not have crew morale being battered into submission.

Look to curve between broadside weight, damage resistance ( its own curve of thickness, HP and splintering ).

That should give you a measure of Lethality, for comparison.

[LeBoiteux]

Could the kill missions for 6th-Rates be opened to the Cerberus, Pandora, Renommée and Surprise ?

(maybe with also AI Cerberus, Pandora, Renommée and Surprise in theses missions)

Edited December 27, 2018 by LeBoiteux

[Farrago]

1 hour ago, LeBoiteux said:

Could the kill missions for 6th-Rates be opened to the Cerberus, Pandora, Renommée and Surprise ?

(maybe with also AI Cerberus, Pandora, Renommée and Surprise in theses missions)

Why? They are not 6th rates.

[LeBoiteux]

14 minutes ago, Farrago said:

Why? They are not 6th rates.

Being in shallows, they're meant to fight mainly 6th Rates.Could be interesting to test them more against 6st rates. Could be rated as 6th Rates.

+ Fun

+ no big harm done to the universe.

Edited December 27, 2018 by LeBoiteux

[Farrago]

51 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

Being in shallows, they're meant to fight mainly 6th Rates.Could be interesting to test them more against 6st rates. Could be rated as 6th Rates.

+ Fun

+ no big harm done to the universe.

I agree that it would be no big harm to the universe. The universe will survive everything except possibly op musket mods. 😂

But it seems to me we shouldn't add anything else that encourages using bigger ships to beat up on smaller ships, especially when those 6th rates might be captained by newer players.

In any event, we're all welcome to kill smaller ships with bigger but the game doesn't need to give a bonus for this "accomplishment".

We can just disagree. Fair sails, sir. 

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, LeBoiteux said:

Being in shallows, they're meant to fight mainly 6th Rates.Could be interesting to test them more against 6st rates. Could be rated as 6th Rates.

+ Fun

+ no big harm done to the universe.

so people can easily farm mission chests? ahh yeah great idea.

[van der Clam]

10 hours ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

I always see a misleading issue speaking of pounds with damage not scaling at same rate.

Let's look at "broadside output" in place of "weight" (using meds just to simplify).

- H.Rattle : 12x43 (6pds) = 516 dmg.

- Niagara : 10x45 (9pds) = 450 dmg.

- Requin : 12x45 (9pds) = 540 dmg.

- Cerberus : 13x45 (9pds) = 585 dmg.

- Pandora : 11x45 (9pds) + 3x43 (6pds) = 624 dmg.

- Renomee : 13x45 (9pds) + 2x43 (6pds) = 671 dmg.

- Surprise : 12x45 (9pds) + 7x43 (6pds) = 841 dmg.

- Hercules : 5x55 (18pds) + 10x45 (9pds) + 2x43 (6pds) = 811 dmg.

Can anyone spot: "2 of these are not like the others"?

[AeRoTR]

Alpha damage is more important than Dps in my opinion. 

[Slim McSauce]

- H.Rattle : 12x43 (6pds) = 516 dmg.

- Niagara : 10x45 (9pds) = 450 dmg.

- Requin : 12x45 (9pds) = 540 dmg.

- Cerberus : 13x45 (9pds) = 585 dmg.

- Pandora : 11x45 (9pds) + 3x43 (6pds) = 624 dmg.

- Renomee : 13x45 (9pds) + 2x43 (6pds) = 671 dmg.

- Surprise : 12x45 (9pds) + 7x43 (6pds) = 841 dmg.

- Hercules : 5x55 (18pds) + 10x45 (9pds) + 2x43 (6pds) = 811 dmg.

15 hours ago, van der Decken said:

Can anyone spot: "2 of these are not like the others"?

Surprise is a surprisingly even match for the herc. Those two ships should really be balanced against each other, the req should be balanced with the reno/cerb (reno really, cerb doesn't have the crew to stick a fight with a requin)