Patch 26. Spanish Frigate Diana, BR rebalance - Diana is a timed reward.

[HachiRoku]

59 minutes ago, admin said:

hmmm

I told you limited chain would be a disaster and it is. Havelock and I can 1v1 for 3 hours with our reps. Same goes for rum. Unlimited vs limited does not work. Common sense....  To this very day I have not heard a solid argument for repairs. You yourself told me it's a goldsink and adds nothing to the game. 

Make NA hardcore again! 

 

[Guest]

Just now, HachiRoku said:

I told you limited chain would be a disaster and it is. Havelock and I can 1v1 for 3 hours with our reps. Same goes for rum. Unlimited vs limited does not work. Common sense....  To this very day I have not heard a solid argument for repairs. You yourself told me it's a goldsink and adds nothing to the game. 

Make NA hardcore again! 

 

Dont be fallacious. You stated chain being limited is a failure and its not, thats a fallacious arguement. Chain is in a great place right now.

However limited grape is a terrible idea because first rates can rum up hundreds of crew and grape damage is very unreliable. 

[jodgi]

2 hours ago, admin said:

to often ships end up with no planking on one side and almost intact structure.

I've attributed that to carronade usage. But I support this, especially with longs it would be cool to see more internal damage. Maybe it would bring about more even balance between carronade and longs fits?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

I'm in agreement about unlimited ammo, I feel like either it should all be limited, or all be unlimited. It should all be crafted and needed to be purchased, or not at all.  Repairs actually offer up a dynamic gameplay element that makes hunting and raiding interesting... Without them there's nothing to stop you from raiding far away from a place with repairs, it takes away any use for a ship like LGV Refit, etc., it's just a nice trade-off mechanic for weight/speed vs. survivability on long raids, etc. So I'd argue for repairs to stay.

What I would argue for is scrapping the stupidity of repair mod stacking and make their use far less effective, perhaps by implementing one of the suggestions above of reducing any effectiveness of repairs on internal structure, etc.

Upgrade stacking is going to get a nerf soon.

Buying ammo is a very interesting concept. 

[jodgi]

2 minutes ago, Flinch said:

Dont be fallacious

It's one thing to be wrong, it's another matter that you happen to believe in different things than him.

I believe hachi is right. I fought Ram recently, there is a definitive potential for everlasting fights given skill, books and mods. I don't know how that is a good thing ..

[Teutonic]

Just now, Flinch said:

Upgrade stacking is going to get a nerf soon.

Buying ammo is a very interesting concept. 

I honestly....fear limited ammo. Please, if we get on that dicussion we should be extremely caustious about how we approach it.

My initial reaction is to ask we don't create ammo. I'd only be willing to agree to ammo if certain measures were taken.

If 60 ball per cannon, 7 chain, 7 grape, and we use the current 2 charge and double.

A 40 gun frigate would have 3,120 rounds of various shots. 

A 12 gun privateer/pickle would have 936 rounds of various shots.

My biggest concen would be that we'd have to go back to port after every battle. Or rather - a lot of players would do that regardless of whether they need to or not and it would create more irritation towards sailing.

 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, jodgi said:

It's one thing to be wrong, it's another matter that you happen to believe in different things than him.

I believe hachi is right. I fought Ram recently, there is a definitive potential for everlasting fights given skill, books and mods. I don't know how that is a good thing ..

Begging the question is a fallacy. He stated that limited chain is a failure therefore limited grape would be a failure.

 

The fallacy is that limited chain HAS NOT been able proven a failure and therefore we cant infer that limited grape would be bad.

[jodgi]

3 minutes ago, Flinch said:

Begging the question is a fallacy. He stated that limited chain is a failure therefore limited grape would be a failure.

 

The fallacy is that limited chain HAS NOT been able proven a failure and therefore we cant infer that limited grape would be bad.

Fine!

Limited chain is by some viewed as sub-optimal, limited grape would work out similarly.

Notice how his focus isn't chain/grape but rather the primary and side-effects to (relatively speaking) unlimited repairs.

[Slim McSauce]

19 hours ago, Intrepido said:

What we need is musket fire from decks so a small ship cant do so much damage to line ships from stern rakes or sailing in close paralel, in front or behind. 

Many captains dont want to engage in a boarding because other ships will come closer and sink him.

alternatively fitting ALL ships with swivels would be a more active solution that you can aim and fire, something we're all use to.

[Licinio Chiavari]

23 minutes ago, Slim McSauce said:

alternatively fitting ALL ships with swivels would be a more active solution that you can aim and fire, something we're all use to.

#moresviwelsforall

[William Death]

It is correct, given repair stacking and limited ammunition types, a skilled player can make a battle drag on till he either wins, escapes, or the battle times out.

Recently I dueled my St. Pavel vs a Bucentaure. I was winning the HP fight, till I lost a mast. But I managed a chain volley, repaired my masts, and neutralized sails while my enemy wasted his chainshot. Then I chained him a bit more and sailed upwind, keeping him tagged with my stern guns. He surrendered because he didn't have time to wait for my next repair to cycle so I could come back to sink him. Basically thats how fights go. I don't even need to be faster than the enemy to make the fight drag on till I can repair and re-engage. I just need to be clever enough, or fast enough for 12 minutes to make it happen. 

Same thing happened when I fought a Hercules with my paper Surprise. He would have easily won the battle (well, not really....I'd just sail away upwind), if I only had 1 hull repair to use. However I had multiple repairs, so I kept running in, firing a broadside and ramming his bowsprit off. But every time I came back, he'd either have his bowsprit back, or have a repaired hull again. Eventually I just sailed upwind and left because I didn't have time to play the repair game for an hour longer.

Thats generally what happens when two reasonably skilled players face off. It comes down mostly to who has the best repair, or who has the most patience to wait for his enemy to make a mistake. Damaged? Kite away till you can win or escape. If you can manage to avoid your enemy's chainshot 4 times, and stay out of demasting range, you'll probably manage one of those two outcomes.

 

IMO, battles were much more strategic with the old 1 hull / 1 rig repair (that you could do simultaneously). We didn't need the repair kits system. The old system with built-in repairs that you filled up in port worked great. If you wanted to take extra repairs to increase your cruising time, you could carry extra kits. Why not re-implement that? Each ship gets default 10 repair kits (hull or rig), if you want to take extra you have to carry them in your hold, as you do now. That way the repair market survives.

 

For a long time, I was against limited ammunition because it seems like something that will make people spend less time sailing and hunting ("Oh, I'm low on shot, better sail back to port...guess I'm done for the night now because its too late for me to go back,"). But, if implemented properly, it could work. Perhaps 50 round shot per cannon, 10 chainshot per cannon, 10 grapeshot per cannon. Any enemy sunk or captured can be looted and 100% of his leftover ammunition gets transferred to your ship. You can transfer some at sea to your friends by trading. You fill up your supply in any port from the shop. You can carry extra in your hold in craftable crates (they are a reasonable weight and crafting requirement).

But that could be a later project, after the aforementioned upcoming changes and UI update.

[HachiRoku]

2 hours ago, Flinch said:

Begging the question is a fallacy. He stated that limited chain is a failure therefore limited grape would be a failure.

 

The fallacy is that limited chain HAS NOT been able proven a failure and therefore we cant infer that limited grape would be bad.

So how come unlimited reps vs limited chain is good and unlimited rum vs limited grape bad? It is simple maths that unlimited is infinity more than limited. This is simply broken and 2 good player can fight until they are kicked out of battle. The funny part in naval actions gameplay is that the further into battle you get the easier it is to survive dueled havelock and after 1 hour both of us had 90% sails and no chain. Every time one player was damaged enough he would kite and restart the battle again. 0 skill involved in it! 

Chain shot is still garbage. Damage to high and drops off to fast. For bigger ships atleast. 4-5th rates are ok. If balls did a bit more sail damage it would actually be ok or atleast better. People have just stopped complaining because whats the point? Noone complained about the old repair system. It was good. There was 0 reason to add it but the devs did and ever since then we have had repair and armour meta issues. I recon most people do not want repairs limited because farming AI and sealclubbing is way easier. If this game was a lobby based pvp game we would not have unlimited repairs because it might add 1 tactical thing to a batter has destroyed many others. 

I would really like if players atleast admited they enjoy multi reps for sealclubbing and carebearing because its not for the hardcore pvpers imo.

[Slim McSauce]

3 hours ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

#moresviwelsforall

#swivelsordeath

[Havelock]

2 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

So how come unlimited reps vs limited chain is good and unlimited rum vs limited grape bad? It is simple maths that unlimited is infinity more than limited. This is simply broken and 2 good player can fight until they are kicked out of battle. The funny part in naval actions gameplay is that the further into battle you get the easier it is to survive dueled havelock and after 1 hour both of us had 90% sails and no chain. Every time one player was damaged enough he would kite and restart the battle again. 0 skill involved in it! 

Chain shot is still garbage. Damage to high and drops off to fast. For bigger ships atleast. 4-5th rates are ok. If balls did a bit more sail damage it would actually be ok or atleast better. People have just stopped complaining because whats the point? Noone complained about the old repair system. It was good. There was 0 reason to add it but the devs did and ever since then we have had repair and armour meta issues. I recon most people do not want repairs limited because farming AI and sealclubbing is way easier. If this game was a lobby based pvp game we would not have unlimited repairs because it might add 1 tactical thing to a batter has destroyed many others. 

I would really like if players atleast admited they enjoy multi reps for sealclubbing and carebearing because its not for the hardcore pvpers imo.

 

Remember that our last "duel" started as a 2v2, with out team mates sinking early (i think was below 30min mark) and i blew through my chain shots pretty fast since i needed 2 repair cycles to reengage after the first kill. I think youre one of the most skilled duelists this game has ever seen and were both patient players. Most enemies we could sink within 30 minutes easily with them having no chance of disengaging.

Chain shot has 100% damage until 250m then drops of to 20% to 500m, the range seems ok. Even though i disliked the high alpha damage in the beginning (and still think its too strong in outnumbered battles) it wouldnt make sense to reduce damage by a lot because then the limitation would not make sense again (think before you shoot).

Did you see my post today from the Nassau patrol fight? I repaired at least 6 (!!!) times that battle, without the repair system this fight wouldve been a joke with way less skill involved. Utilizing repairs to tank damage and return it accordingly with better focus plays an important role in modern NA fleet engagements and i like it way more.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Havelock

[Kilo60]

Le Requins are gonna rule the seas more now than ever!!!

[Sir Texas Sir]

5 hours ago, Ahoy H.R. Matey said:

The amount of scope creep is astounding.

Let's recap a sec. We have:

- 1 brand-new ship (Diana) that is neither craftable nor purchaseable.
- 1 brand-new ship with an old ship's stats (Connie Classic)  that is neither craftable nor purchaseable, and also (according to admin) is due to have a stat buff to be a proper super frigate.Both these ships are in test phase that is why we all got  a free one.  Diana we know will be a note or craftable, hopefully both as I prefer to craft my ships and not buy notes. The connie we don't know it's fate alone with the old one.  So don't just assume things.
- Oh and by the way Connie Classic MAY or MAY NOT be a DLC (even though devs know that fools like me will run out and buy it within seconds of release).
- Herc and Requin that may or may not be properly balanced yet (?), and require delicate touch because people paid real $$$ for them.
- Port UI waiting in the wings.
- Economy patch waiting in the wings.#WHENSEPTEMBERENDS

That's a SHEDLOAD of work. Devs, I get you that y'all are supermen, but even Superman has only 24 hours in each day and 7 days in each week. Maybe, sort out the things that are already in the pipeline and people have been waiting for before even more mechanic tweakage (like structure damage, grape, major boarding changes)? Especially since the more visible changes like port UI will have a noticeable impact on how newcomers perceive the game; and the economy patch has a good chance to turn the whole world on its head because that's what economy patches do more often than not.

Just sayin'. Not doubting y'all's abilities to deliver here, just questioning the focus.

I think they have just a few guys working on the UI cause of menus issues, but other things can be worked on by other guys in the team.  I mean not every one is a programmer or 3D model artist after all.  A lot of the balance stuff is just tweeking numbers is all.

4 hours ago, Teutonic said:

I honestly....fear limited ammo. Please, if we get on that dicussion we should be extremely caustious about how we approach it.

My initial reaction is to ask we don't create ammo. I'd only be willing to agree to ammo if certain measures were taken.

If 60 ball per cannon, 7 chain, 7 grape, and we use the current 2 charge and double.

A 40 gun frigate would have 3,120 rounds of various shots. 

A 12 gun privateer/pickle would have 936 rounds of various shots.

My biggest concen would be that we'd have to go back to port after every battle. Or rather - a lot of players would do that regardless of whether they need to or not and it would create more irritation towards sailing.

 

Honestly perks like the Double Ball/Charge should be auto learned along with the first fleet perk as we level up.  I know they been talking about doing a perk revamp cause of the crafting persk (which should be tied to crafting rank not combat rank) and such are out dated system.   I could see us getting both charges and having the limit along with grape limit like the Chain (though I think we need more grape than what we get for chain).   

My biggest issue with the chain limit is that folks will repair spam the sails until every one runs out of chain and than just out run you cause you can't get the sails down faster than they can get yours using the super laser sighted rear guns.  That accruacy bonus was made to give trade ships an edge, it needs to be removed for all ships now since the game is not the same.   Give stern guns the same accuracy as bow guns have.

Keep the ammo to persk with unlimted ball and have it refresh every battle. I also think repairs need a hard limit per battle.  No more than 3-5 repairs no matter how many you have on your ship.  This is kinda done with Rum with the longer timer, maybe we could test a longer repair timer on the Hull and Sails (I still think they should only work in battle sails or lower speed).

[Slim McSauce]

it's only bad if you don't limit repairs with it.

[jodgi]

2 hours ago, Havelock said:

i like it way more

Ye, you're preaching to the choir. Who from the old guard who are critical of the repair system are still here posting? Hachi, me... Who else?

I'd like to remind you that recharging repairs were introduced because people wanted to recover from mistakes. There is some form of skill involved with managing repairs, but I'll be blunt and say I place that at a lower level than the Sea Trials and Legends system.

It's also well documented that cooldown repairs boosted by books and mods is something skilled and well equipped players are able to use as a rather large skill multiplier. I know many of you approve of- and enjoy that. I am NOT among your number. 

Don't worry, I think this game will remain to your liking regarding repairs.

[William Death]

51 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

I love the limited chain. Also there is no such thing as unlimited repairs. Repairs are limited by ship cargo and add up negative speed if we take many. 

I would like to remind everyone that in past we could have 10k large repair kits with no speed negative effect, that's what I would call unlimited repair, you could sail nonstop and fight without repairing in port.

I'd be fine with limited chain,  if repairs truly were limited. But you and I both know you can carry enough repairs to use 1 repair every 12 minutes and not suffer much of speed loss in battle. Difference between minimal repairs and plenty of repairs is rarely more than .15-.2kn for a frigate-sized ship or larger. A noticeable difference, but I can't think of any competent PvPer that would handicap their repair ability to gain .1-.2kn. Repair is important because it helps you survive the revenge fleets and sink the noobs 1v3 and 4v17, etc...

I carry minimum 60-100 hull when I go out in a 5th rate. 50-70 for general use, and extras for after-battle repairs. And you can, of course, delete those extras in your hold to get more OW speed. 

Besides OW stuff, its bad for PBs too. Last deepwater PB that I was in vs. your guys, I saw your ship take heavy damage and come back full health at least once, maybe twice? Sure, its fun (I enjoy it when I sail a super-repair ship vs regular ships), but is it good for the game? I don't think so. Don't take that as being down on  your ship or strategy, everyone does it. I'm just trying to point out that choices required much more in the way of tactics when you didn't have a 12 minute cycle to fall back on. 

Before someone runs along to suggest it: making repairs slow you down more won't encourage people to take less. It will instead encourage them to hunt less. Less hunting = less PvP. Its bad enough already that sinking a ship causes some of their repairs to be destroyed, occasionally forcing non-boarders to run back to re-supply with repairs.

 

Please, can we just go back to the old system? It was so much better.

It took far more skill too. Many of the "best looking" screenshots you see (handful of players vs fleet) are usually only possible for two reasons: the fleet they were fighting were (mostly) noob players, and the unlimited repairs allowed them to simply pull away and come back with a brand new ship in a few minutes. But the screenshot doesn't tell that. It just makes my team look good and the other team look bad. GG, I am pro because I can spam repair and blast noobs with my speed Bellona. Its fun, but it wouldn't be possible (or not nearly as easy/prevalent) with the old repair system. You get damaged, you repair once. Get damaged again and you must run or sink.  

 

[huliotkd]

9 hours ago, Le Raf Boom said:

And while we're at it, let's limit the amount of grape a ship carries, kind of like chain. Nobody should be graped for 1hr30mins.

nope, or reduce rum necromancer repair to only 1 round

[Farrago]

I always wondered why my crew equipped with axes would wait until after the enemy has boarded me (and even several "rounds" later) to start cut the grappling ropes.

[Hullabaloo]

Re: new boarding speeds:

Sorry for over simplifying and stating the bloody obvious but increasing the speed at which boarding can take place and nerfing DD will massively increase the likelihood of battles being resolved by boarding.  The problem with that is:

Ships, cannons, smoke, fire, waves, sails, explosions....good

Pressing buttons to bagpipe music....not so good

So having more of it might not be a great idea, even if it is historically accurate. 

If there is a problem with tactical game play then leaning more heavily on the weakest (you might even call it 'shit') element of the game, might not be the best solution.

[Barbancourt]

2 hours ago, William Death said:

Repair is important because it helps you survive the revenge fleets and sink the noobs 1v3 and 4v17, etc...

Not just noobs.  I have 1400 hours in the game and I'm still effectively a "noobs". 

 

[William Death]

23 minutes ago, Barbancourt said:

Not just noobs.  I have 1400 hours in the game and I'm still effectively a "noobs". 

 

We're all noobs, wandering through a game with combat as deep as the oceans we sail; some of us are just advanced noobs and some are more basic noobs.

 

Speaking of noobs, I lost a Surprise to an LGV the other day. And I'm pretty sure I've sunk as many first rates to AI battles as I have in PvP. And I know theres a few other "embarrassing" screenshots out there of me spectacularly losing. So don't think I 100% exclude myself in my above statement. 

Specifically, in the context of that quote, I meant that the unlimited repairs are what allows PvPers to pull a win out of a "1v3, 4v17, etc," as compared to the old single-repair system where winning those types of battles was MUCH more challenging.

[Barbancourt]

16 minutes ago, William Death said:

Specifically, in the context of that quote, I meant that the unlimited repairs are what allows PvPers to pull a win out of a "1v3, 4v17, etc," as compared to the old single-repair system where winning those types of battles was MUCH more challenging.

Yeah, I've been on the receiving end of a thumping 2-vs-7 loss like that.