Patch 10.4 Conquest changes, Battle Groups, Wapen von Hamburg (III)

[Liq]

40 minutes ago, Jakob.Kettler said:

And nice fights will not be, because all players you want to hunt will counter-attack you far... far away. Nice Job, devs! Now the PVP is death. It seams, that pvp will be sanctioned by:
- speed cap
- invisibility
- speed after battle
- leveling ships with pve
- only PB will be developed (it looks like a battle group ^^) a.s.o.

Guys, not the mallet is the right method - please balance this game with flair.

I'm very disappointed
Jakob

Defensive tagging happened before aswell. Maybe need to adjust the tagging range a bit. But in general, if someone is faster than you, he'll get away anyway - except when, oyu know, he's blocking your way

So you prefer the old "camping on battle" system? where players didnt even bother to look for pvp cause they knew they'd get steam rolled after it?

Also - Pvp seems like the opposite of dead now. Lots of action going on across teh map today - I have never had so much pvp in a row as today.

Edited July 17, 2017 by Liquicity

[Jakob.Kettler]

Liquicity... tournament isnt the same like pvp at open world. Yes, I prefer the older system, because its more realistic as your invisible and highspeed variants...

Jakob

[Liq]

6 minutes ago, Jakob.Kettler said:

Liquicity... tournament isnt the same like pvp at open world. Yes, I prefer the older system, because its more realistic as your invisible and highspeed variants...

Jakob

thats no tournament - all ow pvp kills count to that list.

old system more realistic? ships profiting from the OW speed boost to camp on an exact battle location? Come on now ...

If ships outside can profit from an OW speed boost to get to the battle - why not give the guys in battle some sort of a bonus aswell, to at least give them a chance of getting away. Pre patch you could have a 15 knot surp, and when leaving battle, if the players outside were any smart, there would not be a single way out left for you.

[Slamz]

I hope this patch signals an end to this game's two biggest problems:

* Crushing small teams with huge teams [because people are lazy and too scared about ship loss to fight a real enemy team]
* Huge teams sitting on their hands because they see no reason to care about going on the offensive anymore.

The point system encourages big teams to punch each other. Stealing a port from the Dutch only gives you 1 point for the win and 1 point for the port. Stealing a port from the British gives you a point for the win and a point for the port but more importantly gives the Brits -2 points for the loss -- effectively a 4 point change. (It gives the Dutch -2 as well but they were so far away from #1 it didn't matter. But giving the #1 team a -2 point hit actually means something.)

On PvP-Global this means that continuing to kick the corpse of the USA is pointless (literally!) but everyone has good reason to go after the British now. They have lots of ports and they can't defend them all. Brits have good reason to punch the Pirates to keep them safely back in the #2 position. Smaller teams have incentive to see what ports they might be able to snipe so they have a better position for the future.... or to see who's willing to pay them the most for assistance in a win.

Stagnant wars lead to boredom which leads to quitting. This weekly winner concept might actually be worth something.

56 minutes ago, Jakob.Kettler said:

gank and flee 

Stop sailing around afk by yourself.

There is ample time to see ganks coming like 95% of the time. Our very best tags are against people who aren't paying attention and are solo. The most dangerous thing for a gank squad is a similar sized group that's actually awake and working together.

Revenge fleets camping outside of a battle are a crutch for the lazy and anti-social.

The real revenge fleet will actually be a fleet that is sailing around trying to find those people on the OW, not just camped outside their battle waiting to be petty gankers themselves.

[Mamen]

There are no forts and towers inside the battle mode

[Sea Fox]

3 hours ago, Sven Silberbart said:

This Invisibility Turbo is th enext thing to make noone is able to catch the other. 15 kn cap was the first step to decrease pvp. Whats next?

Remember when they said switching to basic ships and getting rid of gold ships would encourage pvp because ships would be more common?  Then they invited permits. Harder to come by ships now than ever! Less pvp now because can't afford a ship

[JobaSet]

3 hours ago, Martinoux said:

I m not sure to understand:

only the best nation will won some victory mark?

1 mark by captains who logged in during last 14 days?

This is not true.  If it had started last Monday the Pirates would be in 1st place we won more port battles points even with the brits having more port points atm

[Fastidius]

Officers can promote officers is a bad change or you need a new rank for clan warehouse access only.  seems we can't demote also.

This also means that the Lead Nations are going to be more targeted by ALTing because we will get the first victory marks.I would think and sabotaging battles is a bigger benefit.   Need to lock PB access to Battlegroups and battle groups can only be formed by fill fleet groups so that there is a control about it. At least then they need 12 alts to break a PB.

the rest looks interesting.

Still think the design of victory marks is a grind down the weaker mechanic in this form.  Port Ownership is an RVR advantage and should not be included in the season's scoring.......seasons should be about PVP in the current period. Benefits from previous seasons are in the starting resources.

Edited July 18, 2017 by Fastidius

[Tiedemann]

I like all of the added changes (a lot), except the new victory marks system..  Wft happend there?

The only nation that will get these marks is the one that is currently winning.. What the hell is going on here? The losing sides in RvR also need these marks to be competitive. If nations can not build or rebuild their fleets, the fighting ends! Unless you just tweaked the Bucentaure/Victory so they are seriously OP, this is an "evil circle" that will limit PvP eventually.
So if your nation does good, all the active players in that nation will receive a flat rate of Victory marks for all active players. So even Cadets and random players that contributed nothing to their nations RvR effort will get these marks. That is not fair and it will just force alt accounts to join the winning nation..
The way I see it the conquest marks was at least a some what fair. The players who did the work got paid, the care bears did not. Now you get paid for being in the winning nation, so this is promoting Zerg nations even more than before.

Why was there no tweaking of the conquest marks system!? I do not mean to be disrespectful, but why do you not ask the players if they consider something like this worth testing? I know the devs play the game, but do you actively participate in RvR? IMO this Victory mark idea should have been shot down during the brainstorming. The new mark system will not work if we want healthy nations and reward the actual players who do the work related to RvR. From my point of view it is much worse than the old Conquest mark system!

Regarding the other changes, great work! ^^

Edited July 18, 2017 by Tiedemann

[Hethwill]

Let's say you capture a region, meaning you win a PB. You will score 1 point AND subtract 2 points to the losing nation.

If your nation is at 20 points and the enemy is at 22, you suddenly will be at 21 and they will be at 20.

Then there's these 3 points regions as well.

Unsure about the system but I like it being dynamic and not only a race up.

[Malachy]

15 hours ago, Eleven said:

Still 15kn-meta... sad... some other changes are pretty good!

My clan captured a 15 knot surprise yesterday with 12 to 14 knot frigates.  Don't need to be 15 knots if you know how to play.

[Izrid]

These changes look good. even though I am new to the game.

Biggest thing I am happy with is the combat channel and it's notifications. It shows player activity in an area, which could draw further PvP and create some interesting cat and mouse games, while also warning the more industrious Captains to take care.

 

While Victory Marks and Combat Marks are still new to me, it does have me concerned regarding the industrial side of the game. Creating and gathering materials for component and ship construction is complex and difficult to learn. Further creation seems to be hampered by the restriction of Victory Marks are their requirements for ship building. What measures will be in place to prevent severe market manipulation of Victory Marks and the availability of ships that require them?

 

All in all, a mostly positive outlook, though further attention is required.

[Malachy]

I do think the bellona needs to be available for combat marks too. I like the fact that there's at least 1 ship in the 2nd and 3rds that are available to normal people too

[Fastidius]

not really sure on the reasoning of victory marks for ships or what ships in particular.  for instance if theres1 and 4 rate and 6the rate PBs then surely victory marks should before PB ships specifically.  or there should be a line of 3rds and up or something.....seems like a random idea not actually implemented clearly yet.   Victory is combat marks..? and the buttons broken i think

[Fastidius]

also victory marks to all seems a bit of a bad choice...maybe for people in pbs and pvplists only? makes the alts actually do something.

[Malachy]

6 hours ago, Sven Silberbart said:

Yes. Unbeliveable. In this state of the game I should go with 15kn belona gank some traders in front of enemies capitol. Its easy..

Invis and Turbo Speed + 15kn cap + Counter Tags far away

..saves my live. No danger anymore. Nowhere. My 15 kn Bellona has nothing to fear, but some unexpected shallows

By the time his bellona reached his top speed the renomee is out of battle. People need to pay attention to acceleration and sailing profiles too. Just cause a bellona can reach that speed on one point doesn't mean it's going to win any races.

[Lord_Drax]

13 hours ago, sveno said:

Very nice patch as long it comes to fixes, leaderboards and the reappearance of ships.

Blueprint/Permit Costs
But the Victory/Aga BP you can have for combat marks and Wappen/Niagara cost victory marks?!?
Kinda no reason, the best 4th rate BP is almost free, while most guys will not be able to get BP's for Wappen, Niagara etc?
It looks awful arbitrarily limiting - we really like to test the Wappen properly.

Victory Mark System
I am worried about this (again) only giving reaps to the victor.
What point is there to play as US, FR or NL right now?

Small nations doing excellent will just get nothing, no chance ever getting any victory points.

As the devs have the data: just watch what happens with a country close to a win; its gonna receive a lot of alt accounts.
This is also kinda FUBAR the play for us (few) single accounters...

I hated all the work involved to get every clan of Sweden a fair amount of CM with the old system.
But at least that system was connected to the work done and also small countries had a motivation to do RvR.

A lot of edits - sorry about that.
 

Sveno I don't think I could have said it any better. Why do the smaller nations continue to get punished by game mechanics when US, FR, NL are trying to the best of their abilities to make a mark on a global scale. All this patch does is cripple the smaller nations...

[Vernon Merrill]

8 hours ago, Fargo said:

You cant fix the speed meta, cause there is nothing broken. OW PvP ships will always be fast and its nothing wrong with that. The difference is that ships are able to catch each other. And when fast ships will catch you nevertheless, you dont need to build your ship as fast as possible. And faster ships will be weaker. Currently i can get my Teak/Bermuda Bellona to the same speed as a Renommee.

Any time a Bellona can be as fast as a Renommee, that is the epitome of broken... I'm not sure why they have regressed in ship balancing.  

[Luc]

It destroys the Game, when at the end all ships are able to sail 15capped knots on every sailing Point. 

There are also Player who play alone hunting near capital with a surp - thats my game but now a reno catch me against the wind pff  - a bellona Maybe too? Thats nonsense!

why do they put the speed cap in the first place? Because everybody would disagree see ships sailing over 20kn - its a sailing game and not speedboat Action.

speed cap is wrong and upgrades too strong - give me back sailing profiles!

speed cap is wrong and upgrades too strong - give me back sailing profiles!

Edited July 18, 2017 by Luc

[Hullabaloo]

This happened to me today in my surprise (a cheap one, I can't afford bovenwinds and crooked hull and don't have any 'art of' books, and only have 2 knowledge slots open):

Was at KPR (its just full of noobs I've now realised), I got tagged but easily escaped and went into the new 'warp drive' mode right up behind another surprise and my covert ops cloaking device dropped when i was right behind him. I caught him (easily, he had no chance). I chained him (he had no rig repairs), graped him (he had no rum). I went to board him (he had tried to turn through upwind with 40% sails and was in irons but had his sails the wrong way to get out and was clearly trying every combination). He was M&C rank. I spoke to him in battle and he said that he had played a bit before the wipe running missions and had just started again yesterday. 

I let him go. What's the point in killing a new player trying to get into the game again? I'm a bit noob myself but this guy had no clue yet.

A bit later.....

On my way back to MT sailing against the wind v slow

Another surprise dropped its covert ops cloak right behind me after coming out of warp drive. My surprise does 14.5 (because I pack undersize mediums). This guy was faster and (obv) had 9pd long cannons. I tried to escape but to no avail. When he caught me he stripped most of my armour off with a single angled broadside and i was soon sunk. The fight was fine, I did a reasonable job of trying to escape and made it difficult for him and (would have) quite enjoyed it (and it was a good experience to learn to try and deal with a faster superior ship and try to get away). The fun was spoiled a little bit by the guy ranting in chat that I was a COWARD for having the temerity to repair my sails!

I now see that he is 4th in the new PVP leaderboard, and I now see that he was obviously getting antsy as I was burning into his valuable killing time as he is vying for 3rd spot.

Conclusion

The PVP Leaderboard is such a bad idea. It is no indicator of skill, only an indicator as to who (probably from being high in the pecking order of a big clan) has the most resources and money to fit the best ships and/or who has the most time to play... and then rewarding them even further. It encourages a certain play style and standard of behaviour and schoolboy competitiveness. It is totally artificial (non-immersive) and detracts from any genuine notoriety built up in the gameworld. Zkillboard, but actually built into the game!!! (EVE Online chose not to have a leaderboard! I wonder why?)

TBH it really does make me worry for this game that someone thought this might be a good idea.

I'll leave you to decide whether or not the you think the space warp covert ops cloak combo is any better.

[Koltes]

13 minutes ago, Luc said:

It destroys the Game, when at the end all ships are able to sail 15capped knots on every sailing Point. 

There are also Player who play alone hunting near capital with a surp - thats my game but now a reno catch me against the wind pff  - a bellona Maybe too? Thats nonsense!

why do they put the speed cap in the first place? Because everybody would disagree see ships sailing over 20kn - its a sailing game and not speedboat Action.

speed cap is wrong and upgrades too strong - give me back sailing profiles!

speed cap is wrong and upgrades too strong - give me back sailing profiles!

If Reno catching you against the wind you need to review your ship setup or your own actions as it has nothing to do with a speed cap, because it is impossible for square rigged ship to reach 15kn past 90 degree due to penalties.

[Koltes]

2 minutes ago, Hullabaloo said:

This happened to me today in my surprise (a cheap one, I can't afford bovenwinds and crooked hull and don't have any 'art of' books, and only have 2 knowledge slots open):

Was at KPR (its just full of noobs I've now realised), I got tagged but easily escaped and went into the new 'warp drive' mode right up behind another surprise and my covert ops cloaking device dropped when i was right behind him. I caught him (easily, he had no chance). I chained him (he had no rig repairs), graped him (he had no rum). I went to board him (he had tried to turn through upwind with 40% sails and was in irons but had his sails the wrong way to get out and was clearly trying every combination). He was M&C rank. I spoke to him in battle and he said that he had played a bit before the wipe running missions and had just started again yesterday. 

I let him go. What's the point in killing a new player trying to get into the game again? I'm a bit noob myself but this guy had no clue yet.

A bit later.....

On my way back to MT sailing against the wind v slow

Another surprise dropped its covert ops cloak right behind me after coming out of warp drive. My surprise does 14.5 (because I pack undersize mediums). This guy was faster and (obv) had 9pd long cannons. I tried to escape but to no avail. When he caught me he stripped most of my armour off with a single angled broadside and i was soon sunk. The fight was fine, I did a reasonable job of trying to escape and made it difficult for him and (would have) quite enjoyed it (and it was a good experience to learn to try and deal with a faster superior ship and try to get away). The fun was spoiled a little bit by the guy ranting in chat that I was a COWARD for having the temerity to repair my sails!

I now see that he is 4th in the new PVP leaderboard, and I now see that he was obviously getting antsy as I was burning into his valuable killing time as he is vying for 3rd spot.

Conclusion

The PVP Leaderboard is such a bad idea. It is no indicator of skill, only an indicator as to who (probably from being high in the pecking order of a big clan) has the most resources and money to fit the best ships and/or who has the most time to play... and then rewarding them even further. It encourages a certain play style and standard of behaviour and schoolboy competitiveness. It is totally artificial (non-immersive) and detracts from any genuine notoriety built up in the gameworld. Zkillboard, but actually built into the game!!! (EVE Online chose not to have a leaderboard! I wonder why?)

TBH it really does make me worry for this game that someone thought this might be a good idea.

I'll leave you to decide whether or not the you think the space warp covert ops cloak combo is any better.

PVP killboard is a must. Its been a first day. Have patience. It will be improved with more details ect. Right now though its not about the score but about rewards. With it I have seen 200% more eagerness from people to fight.

It does promote PVP. Your bad experience with one guy does not mean all your experiences will be the same. Good luck

[Hullabaloo]

18 minutes ago, koltes said:

PVP killboard is a must. Its been a first day. Have patience. It will be improved with more details ect. Right now though its not about the score but about rewards. With it I have seen 200% more eagerness from people to fight.

It does promote PVP. Your bad experience with one guy does not mean all your experiences will be the same. Good luck

PVP is why I play, If someone doesn't like PVP there is a PVE server. It doesn't need promoting. The only thing it promotes is a kill at all costs, as many as you can mentality, good fights don't matter. It's no indicator of skill, only resources, it's utterly pointless and rewards those who already have stuff. It's why Eve Online don't have it (a very similar game and one of the most long lasting and successful MMO's ever). The thrill of the fight and the satisfaction of sailing well should be all the motivation anyone needs, you don't need to introduce an artificial ranking system that doesn't mean shit anyway. That leaderboard say's: I have loads of gold to buy the best ships, I have no life so I play PC games all day long, I'd be embarrassed to be on it! If i had cared about a leaderboard and wanted my name up in lights, I wouldn't have let that guy go, is that good for the game?

Edited July 18, 2017 by Hullabaloo

[Archaos]

17 minutes ago, koltes said:

PVP killboard is a must. Its been a first day. Have patience. It will be improved with more details ect. Right now though its not about the score but about rewards. With it I have seen 200% more eagerness from people to fight.

It does promote PVP. Your bad experience with one guy does not mean all your experiences will be the same. Good luck

If it is just a leader-board then it is not a problem, but if there is some reward for being on the leader-board then I am afraid it will lead to people exploiting it by killing alts and seal clubbing new players. Just look back at all the complaints when they had the PvP areas and how some people farmed alts and worked together killing each other to get the prizes. This will be no different apart from now the whole map is the PvP zone. Do pirate vs pirate kills also count? if so this is open to major abuse.

[Luc]

23 minutes ago, koltes said:

If Reno catching you against the wind you need to review your ship setup or your own actions as it has nothing to do with a speed cap, because it is impossible for square rigged ship to reach 15kn past 90 degree due to penalties.

A surp should escape a reno against the wind almost without any Upgrades. And my setup was decent - not the best.

Before the patch you are able to figure out if some enemys are dangerous, because you see f. Ex. ah ok only renos and frigates. I can escape against the wind. But now? You cant see upgrades!

For me its a Legends feature - this Speed cap and lots of upgrades thing. Its nice for the arena mode. I guess we can expect only features which work in both games. I mean unity5 is the Same. Even victory points and ladderboards. I can understand that but its sad. Pirates need some change desperatly.