Essex vs Frigate balance

[Kanay]

Hi all, 

 

Since last patch the Frigate got a nice buff to help make them more attractive, they were underrated ships but good ones already and now they became way better.

 

 

The HP and Armor is now the exact same as an Essex on the sides of the ship, the armor is the same on the stern and bow but Frigate got more HP on the front and back than a Essex, the Frigate turns way better than an Essex and the only disadvantage it haves is that it gets 6pd's on the top deck compared to 12pd's for the Essex and one less 18pd on the bottom deck, but the frigate have 2 very useful chaser guns of 6pd's and the speed is almost the same if not better than a essex.

 

The BR's are 170 for the frigate and 200 for the Essex.

 

 

The pirate Frigate got only 200 hp less on the sides compared to a Essex and regular Frigate, still the same armor on sides, 200 less HP on sails, same armor on the stern and bow and while a bit less than a regular Frigate it have more HP on the front and back than a Essex.

 

 I'm not sure how is the turn rate compared to a regular frigate or essex as not owning one, but the pirate frigate have also 12pd's guns on the top deck like an Essex and chaser guns, the BR of a pirate frigate is 180 compared to 200 for an Essex.

 

 

 

The Essex used to be on par with a trincomalee before and those 2 ouclassing other frigates class ships, now it became the same as a Frigate and for certain aspects worse, and the trinc while having now the same armor as a Frigate too, it have a bit more HP on the sides and sails and bigger masts thickness too.

 

Frigate while having less firepower on the top deck have bow chasers and a way better maneuverability than the essex allowing it to stay very safe from it in a even fight, probably the same compared to a trincomalee.

 

 

The Frigate's were boosted last patch to make them more attractive but i feel like the Essex got rendered a bit useless now beside using it as a boarding ship having a nice crew number when using crew space and extra Hammocks and if pirates frigates were craftable they will be probably the best choice compared to an Essex, and trincomalee while having a bit more HP won't be way better either.

 

 

The frigate is simply an awesome ship to sail now, it is a very stable shooting platform, maneuver and turns like a charm without loosing much speed in the process and can probably give a beating to a lot of ships that used to be way better than her before, sadly all this makes the essex that was left by many players for the lack of chasers really left apart now while the trinc is still a viable option with some advantages it have.

 

 To summarize all those ships became almost the same in term or armor/hp with them advantages/defaults but the essex is for me the big looser of those changes.

 

 

Little comparison of ships HP/Armor/BR :

 

 

I don't know how people does to check stats in game files like they used to be reported on the wiki ( but not updated for last patch ) to compare speed and turn rate of all those ships, will probably have to pm and ask Olavdeng about this i guess to make it more complete to add ships base speed and turn time and get a better comparison.

 

Don't know what others think about this but the essex was one of my all time favorite ships in game but now it suffers too many disadvantages compared to other ships in my opinion, i don't know how better was this ship supposed to be in real life compared to a frigate but i believe it wasn't supposed to be the same or worse like it is now.

[Jeheil]

I am with you, it has been wedged by the uplift to the Frigates. I was going to do my next vid on the Essex but I don't really want to discuss a ship that has somewhat lost its place. It does have much better firepower than the Frigate, but with it's deck guns being all on the quaterdeck it is an odd ship to sail too (a bit like the Ingie) and takes effort to learn.

 

It needs 'something' to help it. Trinc has speed (which you pay for with 200 leaks per second in your 45% leaning racing yacht !) the Frigate is a great all rounder...the Pirate Frigate a suped up version...the Essex...why would you ?

[Chromey]

give essex stern and bow chasers/hp/armor and make it more of a mini connie with slightly more speed then connie

[Anolytic]

The essex is still an excellent ship if its strengths are utilised well. Particularly if loaded with carronades. A clan mate of mine destroyed a connie last night, using an essex. The ship still sails very well close-hauled compared to other frigates.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Anolytic

[Kanay]

The essex is still an excellent ship if its strengths are utilised well. Particularly if loaded with carronades. A clan mate of mine destroyed a connie last night, using an essex. The ship still sails very well close-hauled compared to other frigates.

 

Basing the quality of the ship while loaded of carronades is not really the way i will do it, in combat you will never be able to catch ships and get close enough to unload the carronades while being hammered on sails and penetrated easily from opponent not using carronades.

 

 

As for the sailing, the frigates feels way better than the Essex in game, for what it is worth this is the sailing profiles we can find on the wiki , side by side : 

 

 

and combined with 50% opacity :

 

[Hethwill]

I must thank you for the numbers but that is a tiny part of the equation, sorry.

 

The broadside weight of the Essex gives it a hell of an advantage over the Frigate. The Frigate sailing abilities gives it a hell of an advantage over the Trincomalee. The Trincomalee speed and tacking ability gives it ample opportunity in a fight versus the Essex. Belle Poule fits all roles, a very versatile ship and equally capable to the Frigate.

 

Pirate Frigate cannot be built so it automatically loses against module capability, not are the built in characteristics exceptional being basic at best.

 

All are solid representatives of the 5th rates, no matter what guns you equip, what modules you decide to Setup, etc.

 

What is exactly the problem ?

[Ned Loe]

I fought Pirate Frig in my Speed fit Fir Trinco yesterday. I did not sink, but was hurt badly and couldn't do much against this highly maneuverable ship with nice guns. His 18lb + 12lbs were chewing my fir armor (-5% structure -7cm armor) like it was nothing. Pirate frigate had no rudder and 60% crew, 70% sails and still was able to flip on a dime.

 

Note* I had 0 mods on. I got my data and now I will be able to compare it with mods on, but I think Teak is the way to go these days for Trinco all around speed setup. You can still put 6.1% speed with +4cm armor and extra room for armor or crew. vs Fir 8.6% Speed -5% Structure -7cm Armor. For 2.5% speed on Fir you sacrificing Structure and tons Armor (Resistance). 

 

In the end, I think frigate is good enough as it is and it is very deadly in close combat now. It would definitely be my N1 choice for 1vs1 or group pvp.  

 

I still love my Gold Fir Speed Trinc. , but it's only role is it to hunt down trader ships. Essex would be an awesome ship if it had front guns. Unfortunately it can only stay as a heavy damage support ship in a frigate group. 

[Hethwill]

Was me probably in that fight ? You and the Rattlesnake ?

 

I had EX Extra Hammocks and Basic Extra Staysails.

[Ned Loe]

Was me probably in that fight ? You and the Rattlesnake ?

I had EX Extra Hammocks and Basic Extra Staysails.

Yes. It was a good fight.

Here is a Trinc. 2.56 vs Frigate 3.63 Turn rate.

Guns:

28x18lbs vs 26x18lbs

22x9lbs 12x12lbs

My 9lbs, could not penetrate. From whole broadside only 4-6 made it through while Frigate 12lbs were penetrating Fir like butter. . I don't want to think what would happen if you put Turning Trim + Optimized Rudder on that Ship

[Hethwill]

Was focused on Rigging 90% of the time.

[Jean Ribault]

Interesting thread, I enjoy both those ships the Frigate and Essex, and agree with at least one point of the original poster that the armor differences used to make the Essex a more attractive selection if you could sacrifice the maneuverability for your purpose (not considering the additional firepower of the Essex).  I think the original difference that gave the Essex an edge has been decreased enough that the OP has a good point that it might make your choice to more often go with a Frigate be the right choice for battle.  Either ship is more than enough against larger traders if you tag right, so that's really not a good argument for or against.  But like said above, if you need the firepower then Essex will still win, again if you can sacrifice the maneuverability.

[BungeeLemming]

Can someone please compare production costs to get an idea about the cost/use ratio so to say.

 

I am curious. The essex is more expensive than the frigate. but by how much I wonder..?

[Ned Loe]

Was focused on Rigging 90% of the time.

Indeed. I just realized they buffed sails/rigging and that was my mistake, I think if I kept distance and kept on armor I could have a slight chance. I can confirm new changes that they made to sails do work and make demast somewhat useless. My suggestion to other pvo guys is go straight for the sink and don't waste time on sails.

[Ledinis]

Well maybe this will change venerability for all ships in the upcoming patch, so until then no point to compare imo.

advanced warning:

there are 2 things that might change dramatically in the next content patch that are long overdue (ETA 20-25 days)

• fixes of bugs and improvement of old acceleration and deceleration behavior of vessels
• fixes of turning, terminal speed and rudder influence on speed. 

[Enraged Ewok]

Indeed. I just realized they buffed sails/rigging and that was my mistake, I think if I kept distance and kept on armor I could have a slight chance. I can confirm new changes that they made to sails do work and make demast somewhat useless. My suggestion to other pvo guys is go straight for the sink and don't waste time on sails.

 

I've stopped trying to demast and instead do my best to camp their stern and alternate chain and grape to remove crew and sail. This is with the caveat that recently I've been sailing a fir Gros Ventre in the hopes that people are more likely to engage me and not run at the outset because they have a clear broadside and crew advantage. The question to sink or rake  really comes down to the matchup though.

 

 

 

Well maybe this will change venerability for all ships in the upcoming patch, so until then no point to compare imo.

advanced warning:

there are 2 things that might change dramatically in the next content patch that are long overdue (ETA 20-25 days)

• fixes of bugs and improvement of old acceleration and deceleration behavior of vessels
• fixes of turning, terminal speed and rudder influence on speed.

 

Good to know, and looking forward to the changes.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Enraged Ewok

[Vernon Merrill]

I've stopped trying to demast and instead do my best to camp their stern and alternate chain and grape to remove crew and sail. This is with the caveat that recently I've been sailing a fir Gros Ventre in the hopes that people are more likely to engage me and not run at the outset because they have a clear broadside and crew advantage. The question to sink or rake  really comes down to the matchup though.

 

 

This.  Pada and I, in two Trincs caught a lone Bellona outside of Plymouth yesterday.  He was a good player, but no matter how close we got and how many volleys we put into his masts after chaining down his sails, we could not de-mast.  In the end, we graped him down to ~190 men, but couldnt slow him down enough to board.

 

Good battle, and well-played by both sides, but ~1,000 shots of 18-lb. ball should eventually carry away at least a top-mast or spars....

 

I'm not too concerned, however, as I think its far closer to being correct than it was a few weeks ago...

[Dick Brave]

... I don't want to think what would happen if you put Turning Trim + Optimized Rudder on that Ship

 

Add Excellent Lightweight Ropes and Blocks to it and a skilled Captain has a quite maneuverable ship in combat. I like the Frigate very much, and to be honest, much more than the Trincomalee so far. I'm just about to build my own Trincomalee but I'm currently planning to use it for hunting traders.

 

But reading this I probably skip my planes to build an Essex and try to use it as an alternative for the Frigate.

[Ned Loe]

Add Excellent Lightweight Ropes and Blocks to it and a skilled Captain has a quite maneuverable ship in combat. I like the Frigate very much, and to be honest, much more than the Trincomalee so far. I'm just about to build my own Trincomalee but I'm currently planning to use it for hunting traders.

 

But reading this I probably skip my planes to build an Essex and try to use it as an alternative for the Frigate.

Trinc tilts a lot and must have Gold ballast to feel the difference. Yes you can use T, but it takes too long unless you always in battle sails. With gold mods you can bring it's turn to about 2.8 compared to Frigate 3.99. Frigates are nice now. 

[Kanay]

With gold lightweight rope and a simple optimized rudder frigate already gets an excellent maneuverability and turns against the wind without loosing much speed.

 

The 6pd's top deck and the fast reload rate they have make them excellent to hit the sails and reduce your opponent maneuverability and speed quickly at the start of an engagement in complement to the chasers, once closer the 6pd's will not be totally ridiculous and with grape dealing nice damages on crews and able to get the back armor of the ship down easily and quickly and frigate is able to stay quite safe from other ships due to better maneuverability and sailing, carronades can be used on top deck some will say too but i don't base my judgment on those.

 

 

The 12pd's on the top deck of the essex are nice yeah but this doesn't make a big enough difference between those 2 ships to make the essex a better option than a frigate right now for most situations.

 

The essex seems slightly bigger than a frigate in lenght and width, yet it gets less HP on the rear and the front and gets same armor, seems to have slightly more sails surface too but they get the same sails hp's.

 

Both close to each other :

 

 

a frigate and essex in "inception" mode : 

 

Full Sails more or less side by side : 

 

 

 

Also my inclusion of the pirate frigate while it is not craftable was to compare both ships BR's while the pirate frigate will be superior to a Essex if made of the same woods or trim as it have also 12pd's on top deck + chasers and if it gets the same turn time and sailing profile a better overall ship with only 200 less hp on sides and sails and more hp on front and back ( if it gets the same turn rate and speed as regular frigate ).

 

 

The essex won't be able to defeat a frigate easily in a singular combat while it used to have a big difference between frigate and the essex and trinc being on the top of those two ( for a good reason i guess ? ) , right now the frigate while having less firepower on top deck when using longs will still be able to do more than well as she will be able to stay safe from an essex due to better maneuverability and sailing performances it have.

 

When it comes to costs, based on NPC default prices for materials and 100g/LH a essex gold live oak will be 406490 gold, a frigate live oak gold will be 392141 gold, not too far form each other, the frigate taking a bit less LH than the essex.

 

Like i said i don't know how those 2 ships will compare in real life butt for what i heard before the essex was superior to it and not only by the firepower, seems weird to see both now getting the same side armor/hp  and the frigate getting more hp on stern and bow.

 

I can tell you that i regret to have sold , broken or given away for free all the frigates done to get the ingerman BP before last patch, there is simply not much point to use an essex after last patch under many conditions, while in a group it's still nice yeah but main point is that in the end now we have ships almost all getting the same armor, trincomalee included and barely having any strongpoint when it comes to the essex when they should have more armor and hp variations than this i think.

[Enraged Ewok]

Historically, the Essex was a 12pd frigate before the US Navy used her as an carronade guinea pig. I suspect that the only reason we can mount 18pd guns on the gundeck in game is because the British outfitted her as an 18pd frigate after capturing her. I think the 12pd quarterdeck guns were a balance consideration, as historically she carried 32pd carronades in their place. In all honesty though, I think the armour HP is fine where it is, given that the Essex still has a considerable advantage in broadside weight and crew,

[_Masterviolin]

Well, I've been happily using the Essex all over the place (gold build strength/stiffness, exceptional)- and I've found the Frigate to be a fairly meh opponent. I have the superior crew (assisted by Fine Hammocks) and a neat setup of 12pdrs on my quarterdeck in addition to x14 18pdrs on my gun deck. My opponent's cute 9pdrs on his weather deck seems to do little damage in comparison. I've soundly defeated frigates (AI, not player) before in the Essex, notably last night in which I got out of the engagement without dipping below half armor on both sides.

 

I think the Essex's superior crew and armament really gives it an edge over the Frigate, though really I think a good Frigate captain could certainly defeat an Essex. The Essex, however would really be helped by getting bow chasers in my opinion; her lack of them is a major deciding factor in her capability as a PVP vessel.

 

Also, I've had the pleasure of owning the wonderful "Anatomy of the Ship: The Essex" since the 1st grade as a present from my parents. In revisiting this momento of my childhood, I've found that her side armor in a cutaway diagram really does seem quite strong. Like the Connie in some respects, she features a fairly thick hull on her gun deck.

 

Hence, I also propose that the Essex's side structure and thickness be slightly increased. 

[Kanay]

Frigate top deck is 6pd's not 9's ^^, as for the superior crew, well, Essex can load 370 crew vs 329 for the frigate when both use crew space and gold hammocks and frigate needs less crew for her guns.

From memory the Frigate needs 278 crew for full gunnery alone, activating gunnery and sailing leaves 93/110 men on sails, and 233/278 on guns

Essex needs 308 crew members for gunnery alone, activating gunnery and sailing leaves 109/130 men on sails, and 260/308 on guns.

 

I'll check in game when possible but i'm pretty sure of the numbers, but better double check.

All in all due to the smaller guns on top deck requesting less crew members they get more or less the same efficiency when it comes to crew but the frigate have a higher reload rate on the 6pd's, i am too tired to do maths about % of missing crew on sailing or gunnery for full efficiency on both but seems not far one form the other

 

Once slightly under 250m, i think 230-240m, you will have no problems to penetrate an essex made of live oak with the 6pd's if he does not have built strength or you will have to get a bit closer, or wait to damage a bit the armor with the 18pd's then the 6pd's will kills crew and damage guns once a part of the armor is removed, they will be able to penetrate and cause damages or leaks, or simply using them on sails and masts by shooting both decks one by one while using the great sailing abilities she have to stay quite safe while hammering the enemy ship.

 

Will be interesting to know more about this book and her side armor and maybe compare with frigate is such data exist, when essex was released in game there was a few discussions going on often and it was pretty clear to me that it was a superior ship than a frigate, i mean more resilient in combat than a frigate but i'm not expert in this at all.

[Jeheil]

The essex is still an excellent ship if its strengths are utilised well. Particularly if loaded with carronades. A clan mate of mine destroyed a connie last night, using an essex. The ship still sails very well close-hauled compared to other frigates.

 

I think against the Connie it is probably at its best in the hands of a competent captain, it can turn in and out of the connies turning circle and stern camp, chuck some carro's on and the back of the connie is gone in 2 passes, chain and grape alternatively and as long as you play the wind and don't take too many broadsides she is can be quite the pain in the 'rear' for a connie.

 

However, against her own counterparts, the Trinc and the Frigate she doesn't stand out enough for what she is perhaps meant to be.

[Cragger]

With gold lightweight rope and a simple optimized rudder frigate already gets an excellent maneuverability and turns against the wind without loosing much speed.

 

The 6pd's top deck and the fast reload rate they have make them excellent to hit the sails and reduce your opponent maneuverability and speed quickly at the start of an engagement in complement to the chasers, once closer the 6pd's will not be totally ridiculous and with grape dealing nice damages on crews and able to get the back armor of the ship down easily and quickly and frigate is able to stay quite safe from other ships due to better maneuverability and sailing, carronades can be used on top deck some will say too but i don't base my judgment on those.

 

 

The 12pd's on the top deck of the essex are nice yeah but this doesn't make a big enough difference between those 2 ships to make the essex a better option than a frigate right now for most situations.

 

The essex seems slightly bigger than a frigate in lenght and width, yet it gets less HP on the rear and the front and gets same armor, seems to have slightly more sails surface too but they get the same sails hp's.

 

Both close to each other :

 

 

a frigate and essex in "inception" mode : 

 

Full Sails more or less side by side : 

 

 

 

Also my inclusion of the pirate frigate while it is not craftable was to compare both ships BR's while the pirate frigate will be superior to a Essex if made of the same woods or trim as it have also 12pd's on top deck + chasers and if it gets the same turn time and sailing profile a better overall ship with only 200 less hp on sides and sails and more hp on front and back ( if it gets the same turn rate and speed as regular frigate ).

 

 

The essex won't be able to defeat a frigate easily in a singular combat while it used to have a big difference between frigate and the essex and trinc being on the top of those two ( for a good reason i guess ? ) , right now the frigate while having less firepower on top deck when using longs will still be able to do more than well as she will be able to stay safe from an essex due to better maneuverability and sailing performances it have.

 

When it comes to costs, based on NPC default prices for materials and 100g/LH a essex gold live oak will be 406490 gold, a frigate live oak gold will be 392141 gold, not too far form each other, the frigate taking a bit less LH than the essex.

 

Like i said i don't know how those 2 ships will compare in real life butt for what i heard before the essex was superior to it and not only by the firepower, seems weird to see both now getting the same side armor/hp  and the frigate getting more hp on stern and bow.

 

I can tell you that i regret to have sold , broken or given away for free all the frigates done to get the ingerman BP before last patch, there is simply not much point to use an essex after last patch under many conditions, while in a group it's still nice yeah but main point is that in the end now we have ships almost all getting the same armor, trincomalee included and barely having any strongpoint when it comes to the essex when they should have more armor and hp variations than this i think.

 

There is no real life comparison. The "Frigate" is a Chapman design for a small shallow draft warship designed like a ship of the line for the fjords of Sweden. Never utilized of course. A model making company took the design and slapped on a British style fan stern to make her a frigate kit. The tell tale signs of this are the fact that the stern windows don't line up with the gun deck which is quite low in ship to the waterline.

 

Said modeling company provided the data for their creation to Game labs while this game was in its infancy so can't really fault them for taking the free hand up even if it is only quasi historical.

Edited June 20, 2016 by Cragger

[Malachi]

The "Frigate" is a Chapman design for a small shallow draft warship designed like a ship of the line for the fjords of Sweden.

 

 

What? The privateer on plate XXXIII certainly doesn´t have anything in common with af Chapman´s hemmemas or turumas.

 

A model making company took the design and slapped on a British style fan stern to make her a frigate kit.

 

 

 

That transom on the plan by the model company is anything but british. There are other oddities as the wheel behind the mizzen mast and the steeve of the bow sprit that would disqualify her immediately as a british built frigate.