Fluffy Fishy

Here are some examples, the dating is a little out but shows roughly what states the ships would have been in during the time, they are Venetian examples as thats what my resources give me so the designs are going to be fairly inaccurate but close enough to give you the rough idea of what they would look like in their prime, because of the dating the records mostly come from archeological finds, either wrecks or models, so you don't have the luxury of working with lines like you would if you were eying up the usual kind of resources we get here This is a Logonovo, the example shown is a smaller river boat but there were sea going versions like the example wind already showed us obviously fitted to being more used to the slightly choppier waters in the Mediterranean and black seas Again this example is slightly out, its a later variant from the 15th century, a Cocca which is a variant on a Cog, all in all it would be almost indistinguishable by the untrained eye from its ancestors being built 50-100 years before it. The major differences are that it had a slightly better keel design which helped reduce rolling. The forecastle in this example is also slightly more extravagant and pronounced than its older counterparts, although this varied from ship to ship and depend a lot on who built it and their technical abilities. This is a prime example of a Merchant Galley from 1350, they were relatively light in construction but had lots of clever ways to tie and secure cargo onto the hull in and around various oar ports and structural fastening points, when you look at this example it shows it without its cargo so it looks fairly sparse, if you want to imagine it fully loaded you can think similarly to the ship below, but imagine it being on on a ship, not a truck This example again, perfectly dated at around 1350 shows a war galley, the differences being that there is more cover and better observation posts, this most typically resembles what I see in the example given by the picture in the article, they were fast, light and strong, centered around crossbow combat, ramming and hand to hand fighting. Hope this gives you a better idea of what kind of ships there are down there, if I see any more articles on the project I will try and add them here, hopefully with examples of what they would like. if I have time I will also gather a bit of art to try and show them as they were too but that might take a bit more doing. as a slight end note excuse the rushed photography and the big black square shadow that is my phone, and possibly random body parts included.

Thanks for the pic wind I wasn't going to but here is what the daily mail awkwardly splurged out, while I might be wrong and I can only go on what the pictures show the designs look far too early to be ottoman era, ottoman galleys looked a lot different to Italian galleys as do the various byzantine dromons. I wouldn't complain if someone wanted to send me to the black sea on a paid expedition if you are interested I can try put some plans to what they likely would be but wind has already covered me for the merchant vessel http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3866452/The-Black-Sea-s-dead-zone-Explorers-accidentally-graveyard-40-Ottoman-Byzantine-era-shipwrecks.html You are in the wrong era but not wrong, the xebec is a direct descendant from this kind of galley they started to appear as a compromise taking some of the advantages of round ships and combining them with the advantages of galleys and long ships so a lot of the design features are similar

Did you guys catch this? http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-10-25/ancient-shipwrecks-found-accidentally-during-black-sea-mapping/7962270 I have a link to the daily mail too but the article was horrible and full of daily mail level "history". Anyway it looks an interesting catch. To me the ships appear to be a Cog, some kind of merchant vessel, the 3rd picture is too close to tell but the 4th is most certainly a Galley, its also likely to originate from Italy. I would date the finds to around c1350 and I wouldn't put it past them being the wrecks caused by a confrontation during the 3rd Venetian-Genoese war(1350-55), the other possibility is they date from either the War of Curzola (1294-99) or Byzantine-Venetian war (1296-1302) but I see these as less likely from the style of the ships.

Legend has it Jodgi is already drawing up plans for a cedar speed built ship with regional speed bonus where he will trim it for extra speed then attach copper plating and studding sails. They say that he intends to take a Renomee to escape velocity. I would also be worried about someone getting their hands on an impenetrable 1st rate, I see you have those nice 42lbs, be a shame if they were to you know, bounce off at 50m. PVE will always welcome an experienced captain

There does also need to be some balance of resources to promote conquest, at the moment you can basically shut Britain down if you want to, I like the idea that specialist resources are there to force conflict but its not worked out very well, Britain has some poor access to mahogany and some oak but for the most part it is very limited, thankfully we have a good supply of tea and mechanical looms to wage war with. I'm not saying it was a bad move by the devs, i'm just trying to point out that adjustments need to be made like the good little alpha tester I am I think it would be a good idea to make basic woods and materials like iron and hemp more readily balanced, even if ahistorically just to promote a basic level of combative ability for each nation while making the more sought after woods and better prizes something that can be fought over, necessities should be fairly covered, it should be luxuries that drive empires!

I think you should count your blessings that you have access to live oak, the spread of resources in the current patch is a bit horrible to work with, its put me off crafting all together for at least the short term. Britain has poor access to any wood, except national good style oak and teak which can't be used in crafting. The idea is good but the availability needs a rethink.

At this moment and time the thing I would like to see most is the ability to store more ships, with each new update I am finding it harder and harder to find space for all my beautiful creations. I would like to see maybe 8 slots in the current build, or at least the ability to expand your docking facilities.

I have corrected some inaccuracies with regards to the guns again. Being the eagle eyed person I am I hadn't noticed that the modern reproduction of Fama was too well armed, counting 68 guns, where as the plans for Stengel are listed at 64, after she had her armament reduced taking her down to a 64 by removing one of her guns from the weatherdeck. The differences being that the modern reproduction of the plan shows her to be a ship armed with 28/28/12 (68), where as Stengel shows the somewhat more accurate 26/26/12 (64), the newest plan shows her gun arrangement as it is meant to be, 26/26/14 giving Fama and Gloria Veneta their proper armament of 66 guns as noted historically also boosting her broadside weight by a tiny fraction. Having had a discussion this afternoon with Sella22, he helped me a lot and has shown me a high definition of a plan of what is most likely either Fama herself, or Gloria Veneta, the silhouette and plan itself are the same where as there are more contours shown on the Austrian plans for Stengel are at a higher density than those on the Venetian plan. The other notable difference is that the decorations are slightly more extravagant on the new plan. I have again edited the original posting for this new information and showing the correct placement of the guns New Plan posted below, thanks go to Sella22. Thanks guys

A little project I did this afternoon to share with you guys The term Fregata first appearing in Italy during the 1600s, mainly being used on the west coast to describe medium size vessels as a casual, however the term became popular and spread throughout Italy and was adopted by the Venetians during the 1720s as they began a program that was to result in a class of ships they named Fregata Grossa a phrase that literally translates to Big Frigate, while it's something that can be a little perpendicular towards the naval trends of the developing atlantic powers it is no real surprise to those with an understanding of Venetian naval history, it also represents a similar system that started to be adopted by the changes in naval architecture of the super frigates brought on by the advances of the American Navy. The background of this stems from the 17th century, Venice was in an interesting position intellectually with regards to naval design, the majority of its navy was still based off long ships, Venice producing the finest Galleys in the world, with some very notable advances happening around the birth of modern science which sparked to life from various investigations by an intellectual elite centred in the Venetian Arsenal, even attracting the greatest mind of his age, Galileo Galilei, who completed his apprenticeship in Naval Architecture in the Arsenal around the turn of 1600. This period of enlightenment spawned the first scientifically designed ships, huge Galleasses, on the contrary to this there was little research being done into round ships, despite having done so previously, with the development of ships like the Galleon, and the experimental ship Galleone Grande, a hulking 138 gun super galleon in the mid 1500s. The majority of round ships were designed and produced by family firms, these families mostly basing their operations on the Island of Lido at the edge of the Venetian lagoon and were only merchant vessels, which could occasionally be requisitioned to the Venetian state in times of war. By the mid to late 17th century however, it became very clear how naval warfare was starting to develop, and it became a case of catch up or be caught out so in the 1660s work began to research and design warships similar to that of France, Spain and Britain, The the results were new construction methods and an order of Man o’war style ships, the first being the Giove Fulminate class, first launched in 1667 armed with 62 guns. Gradually over time these ships progressed and the rating system grew to Venetians using 70 guns on their largest ships, they briefly experimented with a 74 but this type of ship was deemed too expensive in construction and manpower. As part of this they developed a rating system based on 4 ratings, Primo, Secondo, Terzo and Quarto Rango which was to be used most notably between 1666 until around 1730. These man o’war style ships saw considerable test in combat, this period saw the end of the Cretan war (1645-69), Morean War (1684-99) and the Second Morean War (1714-18) and during this time period it became more apparent that these new ships were powerful in a combat situation but were often avoided by the Ottoman fleets, they also struggled to compliment the Venetian naval doctrine and stock of world leading Galleys, calls were starting to be made for ships of a different kind to be constructed, vessels that properly worked to the strengths of Venetian capabilities and so after the recovery period following the Second Morean War, the Venetian state started to invest in a new range of ships and the term Fregata Grossa was adopted in Venice. The early use of the word was complimented by Fregata and Fregatine but the words evolved over time to encompass Fregata Leggera, Fregata Corvetta and Sciabecco. The first ship of this new class system was the Sant’ Andrea 2 launched in 1724, built fitting into the current naval rating system as a secondo rango but noted for being different from it, and from this point the new style of ships began to replace the secondo, terzo and quatro rating system, while the primo rango ships were still maintained, due to their different use as heavy battleships. The new fregata range operated more similarly to modern ships, the Fregata Grossa working as Battle Cruisers, whereas the Fregata Leggera operated similarly to cruisers, with smaller ships such as the Fregata Corvetta and Fregatines working similar roles to modern destroyers. The Fregata ships were a huge advancement for venice, leaping them forwards as they could now much more efficiently make use of their scientific achievements based off of years of developments in Galleys, the new Fregata range took much better advantage of various breakthroughs in centuries of investigations into the mathematics of basic fluid dynamics, hull shapes and trims for how to shave and improve rowing speed or sailing profiles aimed at making the most out of smaller more nimble ships, while research into larger ships was relatively stagnant apart from investment into various models of Galleass, which formed the backbone of heavy ships for the last 200 years. They were also much cheaper to man, but packed a similar punch to slightly larger ships such as the increasingly common 74s, The Fregata Grossa especially, which was seen as the pinnacle of technology, being as the venetians saw it, the perfect mix of speed and sailing capabilities matched with the firepower of larger ships, whilst still being able to properly support Galleys. The Fregata Grossa class was comparable in size to the footprints of the large and super frigate period, their sizes being between 38-40m apart from the Fama class, which was 42m in length while carrying much more firepower. The Fregata Grossa classes did react to some of the same inflationary pressures as with all frigates and ships of the line, the earliest having been 56 guns, the last 66, although interestingly there was very little growth in length or girth over this inflationary period as designs became more intricate and the naval designers and shipwrights learnt to take more advantage of arranging the ship and use the considerable experiences of archived data looking at how to load and arrange galleys with their notably higher restrictions on use of space and understanding how to better apply what they knew to the Fregata Classes without compromising the hull strength, again something they had learned from the vast data collected with galleys and positioning rowing ports with regards to framing. There were also some advances into how to arrange crew, something that had been on the minds of Venetians for half a millenia, again these advancements came from applying advancements to galleys and how to arrange rowing benches and crew space to allow for the huge crews, such as those seen on the Lepanto Galleass in 1571, ships which could carry 1600 men, these age old technologies were applied to squash men in as efficiently as possible. While in comparison to other navies at the time surprisingly few ships were built, mainly due to pressures on the Venetian finances during the last century of the republic they were well regarded by those who sailed them, the Fama class is considered the real swan song of the Venetian shipbuilding industry. In all there were 5 generations of Fregata Grossa: Sant’ Andrea 2 Sant’ Andrea 2 (1724) San Vincenzo (1730) Cervo d’Oro (1743) San Michiel Archangelo San Michiel Archangelo (1743) Giglio d’Oro (1749) Cervo d’Oro (Refitted from previous class) Concordia (1773) Minerva (1773) Speranza Speranza (1752) San Vincenzo Ferrer (1757) Vigilanza Vigilanza (1757) Ercole (1761) Sirena (1778) Fama Fama (1784) Gloria Veneta (1794) Le Stengel (1797) Le Beyrand (1797) 2 ships never completed.

They are very different ships though, much more so than say the Essex and Trincomalee, Agamemnon is going to be notably tougher while Fama would behave much more like a frigate so should be faster and more agile. I feel like the game would benefit a lot from taking more of an approach trying to focus around expanding different play styles and tactical use of ships over broadside weights and visual experiences. I'd much rather see things like this than as you mentioned later in the same post where you have Santa Secilia and Hermone, and while I do like the up and coming ships it is a bit of a shame in some ways that HMS Indefatigable is just a cut down Agamemnon. We do need a few more 4th rates, that's very obvious, especially as we are looking to get hold of some new 3rds soon, likely the Temeraire class and a Spanish 3rd rate, I shall just have to continue throwing some more plans out and filling in more research as I go I am also hopeful, although I am not sure how much I should be that the devs actually do have quite a few ships up their sleeves for release, while this will probably be proven wrong there was a post on the up coming patch thread that seems to give some potential that they are holding at least a few ships back until we go full early next year. Failing that I did see that the modelling was only a small part of getting the ship out there and the real work comes with the testing, but as the team gets more used to testing more varieties of ships they should probably see more getting drafted through, we are most definitely seeing more in production now than I feel like we have ever had before. I guess its all a big guessing game, presenting some interesting proposals, maybe the dutch will finally get their ship too

What type of Galleon are you after? I assume you are looking for a late 17th Century early 18th, even then what type would you like, its a bit like asking for a generic ship of the line ?

I was really worried when I first saw this title, I thought it was going to say something devastating about the upcoming patch being something underwhelming, I was so glad to know thats not the case I have been around since the very start of the year, I am not a big game buyer, I usually enjoy strategy games mainly from paradox but this hits the sweet spot for me. I have been looking for this game since playing Empire: Total War, it really hits the sweet spot but what really keeps me interested is the openness of the Devs, much like the development team at paradox, delivering the game is the key priority here, not delivering a product. The open nature and "when its ready" can be a little frustrating from time to time, especially when you know some great patches are on their way, the type that really benefit the things you enjoy most about playing but without a doubt, id much rather play something that is actually done over something that has been rushed to a release date, you guys deliver a quality product and are always happy to share what you are trying to achieve, keep at it, you are doing an incredible job, but still remain humble about it. I have been playing since the very start of January, and while I can't dedicate as much time as I would like to I have far more than my money's worth, as a thank you I do my best to help you out with bug reports when I notice them and throw some ship plans at you now and then too, I am still here, steam says I have over 100 hours more than its next most played competition and its just going up and up, I look forwards to being here well into another year, with more ships and more fun! Keep at it, you guys are great!

Not to sound like a prince of Misery but here goes 1. Chasing: the mechanic is dull. it needs a complete rethink, where combat is just oozing a boring system that doesn't make for fun gameplay. 2. Crafting: the mechanic is really dull and needs spicing up with something more interesting, the hours system needs a complete overhaul, as does the general way the economy works 3. Boarding: The mini game needs a complete overhaul, the rock paper scissors boarding game is weird and needs looking into again

In the spirit of Avenski my signature also has a nice ship in it that would make some fun, a gorgeous 66 gun frigate that was built to operate as the role of a pirate hunter and similar to a modern battle cruiser. She has a footprint similarly sized to the Essex but with a draft more similar to Agamemnon. Would be fun to see the Xebec finally make it in, along side that i'd also like to see a few half galleys, or ships that are able to use oars but then thats a whole lot of programming that I am sure the devs don't want to do due to budget and time restraints I personally would like to see some more varied frigates and some different smaller ships, a polacca would be a good addition to have, as would some of the later galleons, not that I am a huge fan of the Ingermanland but it would be great to see a few more ships from the early 18th century. Its also about time we saw a few ships from more varied nations, the Dutch are screaming to have a ship, something like a large SoL or the De Ruyter would be fantastic, it would also be fantastic to see an italian design or two from some of the city states, I have posted a bunch of plans for the Venetian ships of the time period, with some help from the superb Sella22. Did I forget to mention I really like Fama

Because it was done with the guns in place, The camels themselves were designed by Jean Tupinier and raised the ships draft by about 4.25m. Rivoli had been launched in 1810 but was stuck in the Venetian lagoon due to the geography, I had a look to see if I could post you a picture of a chart but I couldn't find a decent quality image showing the lay out and difficulty of getting larger deep hulled ship in and out of not only the arsenal but between the shipyard and the Adriatic. The french had launched plan to take advantage of the fantastic ship building capabilities and facilities available in 1806 following their re-acquisition of the territory following a peace deal with Austria, they gathered resources and soon began work on a number of ships (a Tonnant class, 10 Plutons, 10 Pallas, 2 Carolina Class (a Venetian design), 9 Brigs of various size and design, and 8 Goletta of various size and design). This plan was overseen by Jean Tupinier, as part of this plan the Lagoon was to be charted by Augusto Denaix, which work also began in 1806, meaning that the french occupants had already committed to the building of ships before understanding the limitations of using the Arsenal, this wasn't helped by the Venetian passive resistance to the french occupation. I will post 2 semi useful links below to give you a rough idea of the geography, although modern dredging makes the lagoon much deeper than it was historically. http://www.atlantedellalaguna.it/?q=maps#tema-1-titolo http://www.atlantedellalaguna.it/?q=node%2F205 Anyway to get more onto the point of your question, the decision was made to float her out with guns for two main practical reasons, the reality was there wasn't anywhere suitable to arm safely in or around the lagoon, there were a couple of ways that could have been potentially viable but it was decided that sending her out armed was the most sensible, the other options included transporting the guns to the northern edge of the island of Lido or constructing some floating platforms to allow her to have her guns barged onto a makeshift floating dockyard, the idea of arming at Lido would also have been considerably tricky because the surrounding waters are still fairly shallow, so would likely have presented the same problem forcing camels to be used anyway, to add to this the Venetian gun foundry was situated on the southern edge of the Arsenal and it was a lot of effort to transport the guns around without the support of the pulley and rail system and cranes. The other huge reason the ship was sent out armed was due to the considerable pressure that the Royal Navy were exerting in the Adriatic, especially following the capture of the Ionian islands by the British in 1809, leaving them with a very useful base at Corfu, and allowing them power over the area and making it impossible to safely arm outside the comfort of the lagoon. There was however a more tactical reason that was made, Rivoli was to be launched fully armed for shock reasons, then immediately sailed towards Pola in order to break British dominance of the region, the french were under the impression that the British had only deployed smaller frigates to control the region after their success at Lissa in 1811, however British intelligence were tipped off about the state of Rivoli and also got hold of information in regards to gathering crew and supplies, so stationed HMS Victorious in the area under a low profile. The result was that Rivoli was captured only 4 days after her maiden voyage started after a 4 hour battle at Pirano. Some Further reading https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Pirano https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_campaign_of_1807%E2%80%9314 Hope this helps

I can't see any evidence to support that Rivoli is not a temeraire, The OP asks about the temeraire class and all the information I have reinforces what I said about Rivoli and the other ships being of the Pluton sub variant of the Temeraire, I personally think the Pluton group look better too, although the difference is only fairly small, its only 6ft shorter length, 2ft thinner, 9 inches shorter in height. Sadly very few of them made it to even their 10th birthday, shame really. They would make a nice little ship, the Pluton class looks really good, also I would like to remind you that the game uses a subclass of the Bucentaure, not the original 80 plan.

There are some nice models of the Téméraire class, the one I know best is of Rivoli, as she was built in the Venetian Arsenal, along side the other Pluton variants, Rigenetore, Reale Italiano, Mont Saint Bernard (also known as Mont Blanc), Castiglione, Duquesne, Montenotte, Lombardo, Sigmaring and Arcole. The fun that we get to have is that the french underestimated the depth width and difficulty of getting out of the shipyard and then the Venetian Lagoon, they had to mount the ships on a specially made set of sea camels, they also had to demolish part of the Arsenal wall and make a new sea gate specifically for the Pluton class ships. I will leave some pictures below of the Camels taking ships out So as an answer to the original question, maybe the Téméraire class is stuck in port because the devs need to model some camels first

I would hope so, the lack of being able to craft everything seems to harm more than help balance, with total ability for crafting things could be balanced quicker and more effectively. The 1 dura ship stuff really worries me, the system we currently have in place is much better, the way it works now is a good system, it would be a real shame to lose it.

I will be interested to see how the new economy features work, crafting and such. I will be sad to see my mods become a little less important but I really like how quality makes ships a bit better The idea of 1 dura ships across the board does worry me, it sounds like something that won't work out particularly well unless you can find a way to refit the ships. I am looking hugely forwards to seeing forts on the map though, they look so good from what was shown by the screenshot.

I have some nice plans for a few Galleys and Galleass, I also have a few Galleots and half galleys should you want them too, I posted a Polacca somewhere too, let me know if you want me to drop them somewhere, I already posted La Gabriella (the first "modern" ship designed entirely with scientific principles in mind

While doing a little bit of looking around I have found another source that states some potentially useful measurements when it comes to height and load, The source lists the bilge tip and another measurement for the draft. I will update the original post to add these as the draft seems a much more quoted figure than the one I wrote down originally, which looks to be a mistake where it has been improperly converted as a measurement from the piedi to the metre. Bilge Tip (height between the keel and deck): 9.73m Draft: 6.08m I can also doubly confirm that the measurements and lines for the hull of Stengel are exactly the same as Fama as the source talks about Stengel too.

Canaletto Gaspare Vanvitelli

It seems to be ok now.

There seems to be some big connectivity issues for the PVE server, it keeps having huge lag spikes and dropping connection, other players on the global chat have said they are experiencing it too . My ping spiked up to 18500 or so briefly and I cannot create a stable connection to the server, I believe others are having the same issues.

While it would be nice to have something to get XP again for I don't really think this is the answer. It makes more sense to add some more ranks with more stages of what you can man, then let players progress again than start from scratch, I would see nothing wrong with max craft level at release going up to 100, with more ranks involved too. With the current numbers of crew you can have being set to "40, 60, 120, 150, 200, 250, 350, 650, 800, 1,100" there is plenty of room for the devs to do something like add another few ranks, changing it to for example; "40, 60, 120, 150, 200, 250, 350, 450, 600, 750, 900, 1000, 1100, 1200, 1300, 1400, 1500, 1600, 1800, 2000". Leaving us with 20 ranks and the ability to lead a small fleet should we want to. I even doubt that many players would run a small fleet because AI is never as good as human players but the possibility of running with one would still be a nice thing to have and would add some nice balance for poorly populated nations.