Reinforcement fleets: feedback

[StaleMemes]

I haven't had any problem with them sailing for France, as most of our protection is made of players: which I think is good.

if people are so far away from the capital that player assistance is impossible, then I feel that they shouldn't have 100% protection like they used to. The combination of moderate AI support with player assistance makes zones less "all or nothing" and enables absolute security right at the capital with diminishing protection as you stray away.

overall I think it's good.

 

edit this may be more of a problem for weaker nations that don't always have a ship ready sally out and help.

Edited May 8, 2018 by Capt Aerobane

[Vendetta109]

@admin To put in my two-cents (I know this might be bordering on breaking the rule of staying on topic but please stick with me), I honestly don't think the problem here is AI, their power or effectiveness, I think what we should instead be doing is making the forts much stronger, one reason why fleets NEVER wanted to go into a harbour or choke point was because the great guns of forts were not only deadly, but could use ammunition no ship could pray to use, and beyond that the forts often used "Great" guns which were usually guns that ships could not fit due to their weight, one kind of shot used often by forts shortly after the seven year war "Heated Shot" became much more commonly used by forts, just one hit from this thing wasnt a guaranteed fire, but it'd keep the crew running to find the rounds (Which means you need to put more and more people on survival) but entire VOLLEYS of this shot could prove detrimental to the survival of the crew and the ship, the inclusion of heated shot would make forts more dangerous and a much more preferred ally in a gank situation. not only in shallow water but deep water as well.

[seanjo]

Reinforcement fleets no longer provide the protection they are supposed to give new guys, the population is dropping.

[admin]

3 hours ago, victor said:

So why did you ask for feedback? Who is chasing outside capitals? Noobs or veterans?

As far as direct feedback I cannot provide, since I switched to "cautious mode" trading as in the good old days of no reinforcements (but also of no PVP marks!), so I just use tricks to avoid hunters rather that having to use (useless) reinforcements.

 

I am not interested in Dron's skill level or MoscalB experience that christendom tried to push into the subject. I did not ask about skill levels in this topic.

Regarding your statement. We asked because we are really interested in players opinion.
You started to get nonconstructive lately. I don't understand the issue you are having with my question and don't understand why you even post if you have nothing to say.

We warned several times ago that we are restricting posting privileges for off topic in important feedback topics.
 

[Liq]

The changes with reinforcment zones (Forever open battles) basically turned revenge fleets waiting outside into instant help

Now, some might see that as something good, others as bad. Personally I guess it's okay. IF there are other properly working areas for players actively looking for PvP (patrol zones; but those still need that RoE overhaul - they're basically the same as reinforcment zones at the moment with battels open for 30 min)

Have not had many battles in the reinforcment zones but from my experience they're not really doing much. Tagged an indefatigable in my trinc, he got an AI surprise as help. Could just ignore it and demast it once the player was finished.

[Fletch]

Needs to be AI  2 ships for every attacker in my opinion one can simply be taken out the picture with chain 

[William Death]

4 hours ago, Christendom said:

I've attacked several players in the reinforcement zones over the past week or so.  It's now incredibly easy to sink traders again.  

Outside of Belize this weekend I tagged a player in an LGV just south of the port.  Get a great tag, load chain with prepared and immediately rigging shock the guy.  Sail over, push him into the wind, board and over.  Since I was in a trinco the AI reinforcement was a AI belle poole and it spawned behind and downwind.  It simply couldn't get to us.  Capped and sunk the guy and made a course upwind further out of the battle.  Easy.  AI was a joke.  I felt bad for this guy.

Another situation outside KPR myself and 3-4 other VCO/CSA guys snagged an traders brig with 2 in fleet.  He called in reinforcements, but since we were in frigates they were only AI frigates.  Rage boarded the guy and the other captains boarded his AI ships.  All sunk.  some light chain on the AI and we sailed away.  Easy.

The threat of matching AI 5th rates is not enough to deter myself from hunting.  the AI 1st rates were.  

I know I saw the ex RUBLI guys outside Habana this weekend ganking in the safe zone with Hercules.  I assume they were getting in quick to sink and then just hitting the jets and running away.  

Safe zones are a joke now.  And it's a shame

 

Basically this. I'm not really deterred by the reinforcements anymore. If I'm careful, I can sink the player and get out before reinforcements ever get to me. If the reinforcements spawn too close for comfort, I can out-sail them. AI isn't very smart and will repeatedly turn into the wind while trying to chase me close-hauled. In the battles we fought together, our team of frigates could easily smash a trader's fleet before the reinforcements become a problem.

Additional players joining late, on the other hand, is something for the hunter to worry about. It recently cost me a 3-wood type Surprise. RIP. Good fun though.

[seanjo]

27 minutes ago, Vile Executioner said:

 

And?...does that exclude people from an opinion...or are you saying you have to be one of the elite to decide?

[VirtuallyIdiotic]

12 minutes ago, Vile Executioner said:

I see a lot of people talking about attacking in the reinforcement zone who are 10/10 times not on the pvp leaderboard...lol

Unlike some people on that leaderboard, people have other priorities and interests outside and inside Naval Action. Only taking the opinions of the elite and taking in very little the opinions of the casual base does not help create a healthy long term game enviroment. If progress is to be made all suggestions should be properly and equally taken into consideration. 

[admin]

26 minutes ago, seanjo said:

 

it does not. This topic is for everyone. His comment removed.

Captains we are interested in all opinions of people who use reinforcement from both sides. + tips from active hunters on how defenders can use reinforcements more effectively. 

 

[Nelsons Barrel]

Imho the only protection the capital zones give is not reinforcement fleets but the forever open battles. Calling reinforcements is actually quite stupid as they block slots for your overkill of coastguard that will come to rescue you for the 0 to 1 pvp marks they get for killing the hunters.

Rather than having AI reinforcements we could think about an emergency distress call in nation chat via 'Clerk' with the exact position for the battle like 'British player got attacked 2k south of KPR. Attacker has 225 BR'. As this would give all the necessary intel the coastguard needs to come to help new players.

To the current reinforcement fleets... They break immersion, are stupid as hell, can't repair and for hunters easy to immobilize (chain, demasting).

Edited May 8, 2018 by Nelsons Barrel

[Archaos]

22 minutes ago, Vile Executioner said:

I’m saying it’s less relevant if you have no proof of you actually attacking someone in reinforcement zone to prove that you are capable of feedback. If you can’t prove to be the aggressor then you should only give feedback as the victim.

Other people have opinions too whether they are aggressors or victims. Many people have changed their habits and way on playing since these changes were introduced. Personally I used to attack a lot of AI fleets in the Belize green zone, now I have moved elsewhere. I have also heard of many solo hunters that avoid the green zones because of the forever open battles. Just because a person is not attacking someone or being attacked does not mean it has not affected their play. I knew from the start that nerfing the AI reinforcements would make it easier for the attackers as I have played a lot against AI and know how they sail, I would rather face a AI fleet at 3 times my BR than a 1v1 against another player of equal BR, because I know what the AI will do and can plan accordingly.

[Sir Texas Sir]

4 hours ago, Iroquois Confederacy said:

Historically, even during the Revolution when the Continentals had a garbage navy, even they could raid the United Kingdom itself.  There is no such thing as "safety" on the ocean.

Historically you didn't sit in the bay of London killing folks either.  One of my biggest issues with the zones and this is mainly going off the CT one cause I haven't went to KPR or French zones to check how they are, but CT has a big empty zone right at the mouth of the bay that is not protected for a good bit that folks farm at.  You have to pass through this zone to get out of the Capital waters and back into reinforcement zones.  What is even the point of having the zones if the capitals aren't protected properly to let newbs and casuals do there thing?

21 minutes ago, Vile Executioner said:

I see a lot of people talking about attacking in the reinforcement zone who are 10/10 times not on the pvp leaderboard...lol

KFC is prime proof you can kill a bunch of noobs and never make it on the Leader board, when all your doing is killing Trade ships which give you very little points compared to bigger ships.  Just look at the other weekend when we had those Port Battles with Brits.  I think you or Bandish was the only one that made it on the leader board, can't remember any of the french and how many use small ships got sunk that night.  While if you listen to KFC it was like 40 ships.  By our count more like 10-20 ships lost all 6th rates and only you two made it on the leader board and that is prob from hunting in other places.  So yah leader board doesn't always tell things, but also it tells a lot.  Just about every time I see some one brag about kiling a large number ships there stats on the board was very small so it tells you all they where doing was farming newbs, trade ships and small ships or doing big group ganks so you get very little points.

I want to point out another game that many of us played before and wonder why our gaming model is pretty much backwards? In POTBS you couldn't attack another player unless your in the red zone (any one remember my alt Dead in the Red?  Yah joke name off POTBS).   You created the red zones by doing agro on a port.  The bigger circle only pirates and Privateers could attack you in.  They had all the rest of the ocean as a safe zone and the game ran great, had tons of PvP, cause we knew where it was.  We didn't have to camp capitals or new player zones.   You wanted PvP you flipped a port or put agro on it, most the time we never even flipped it, just keep a constant red zone in that center.  I think the biggest problem with this game is we don't give the PvPer's that incentive to make there own zones and stay in them.  Instead they go and haress every one but each other. I seen several nations of PvPers sitting right next to each other not attacking waiting on traders and noobs to come out of a port.  Than they wonder why there isn't any PVP?  If you want PvP than go flip another nations port.  I bet you if a certain nation "A" flipped a port of "B" PvPers there would be a fight out side that port and they would get all the PvP they want.   

Ok back to our game NA.  As many folks have stated the reinforcement/safe zones are a nice touch to the game to give false security to new players and the casuals.  The problem is that is all they do, they don't actually help and all you do is give the open inventation for the gankers and want to be PvPers to go feed off them.  I don't want a completely safe game. I do my trade runs in OW out of the safe zones when I do them.  I do most my econ except my ship building out of open water not safe ports.   That is me though I been playing this game a long time and I don't need that security. I get on during off hours and run my runs when there is hardly any one on, I know the main hunting grounds and times when players are on. I make my runs when they aren't on, but the causal/new players don't have that option.  Instead they see the same guys over and over in front of there capitals picking off ships.  Yes we can all say, "GO PLAY SOME OTHER PORT." But many of these guys they pick off never leave the capital coast line either.  The game needs those players and numbers to remain active. Cause some of them do finaly leave and get into PvP/RvR and grow into vet players or more than casuals.

My point is reienforcement zones should not be the prime hunting grounds if some one is looking for a fight.  It should be in areas like POTBS that are hotzones.  Though since this game is a sand box it's allowed, but we shouldn't make these zones easy for folks to pick off easy targets of those that aren't aware of all the game mechanics and how to play to the best of the game allows them to.

[Vile Executioner]

2 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

KFC is prime proof you can kill a bunch of noobs and never make it on the Leader board, when all your doing is killing Trade ships which give you very little points compared to bigger ships. 

All you have to do is kill 2-3 people to be on leaderboard when solo hunting. That is big ships or traders. It’s really not even difficult.

[Vile Executioner]

6 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Yes we can all say, "GO PLAY SOME OTHER PORT." But many of these guys they pick off never leave the capital coast line either.  The game needs those players and numbers to remain active. Cause some of them do finaly leave and get into PvP/RvR and grow into vet players or more than casuals

We need more reason to push people out of the reinforcement zone in general. There is no reason 4000 hour sailors at max rank should be able to do anything they want to do in game in reinforcement zone. 

[Sir Texas Sir]

3 minutes ago, Vile Executioner said:

All you have to do is kill 2-3 people to be on leaderboard when solo hunting. That is big ships or traders. It’s really not even difficult.

Exactly solo hunting, but a lot of these so call guys that brag about all there PvP aren't solo hunting and that is why many of them don't get on the Board or they have very low points.  You take a 50 point ship and split if 50 ways that is only 10 points.  So you really don't get up there on the leader board like a solo hunter would.  Most the problem in these zones aren't the solo hunters. I have no issue with those guys.  It's the guys that come in groups of 3-10 and than jump every solo player they see and call that PvP.    Than they cry they can't find any PvP all the while avoiding other PvP groups doing the same thing.

[Vile Executioner]

8 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Though since this game is a sand box it's allowed, but we shouldn't make these zones easy for folks to pick off easy targets of those that aren't aware of all the game mechanics and how to play to the best of the game allows them to.

It is a sand box game. And it is based on a team play function. Just like I would want to have a friend to lure the AI away in a battle that is open for 90 minutes, the victim should also want someone to help him right out side YOUR capital aswell. There is no reason the defender should go entire length of battle without proper help from his TEAM he is playing on in his OWN capital reinforcement area. It is not the fault of the aggressor at this point, it is the fault of the people in the reinforcement zone on the same team as the defender to apply the right amount of reinforcement given to the player in need.

[Sir Texas Sir]

2 minutes ago, Vile Executioner said:

We need more reason to push people out of the reinforcement zone in general. There is no reason 4000 hour sailors at max rank should be able to do anything they want to do in game in reinforcement zone. 

The thing is it's not the guys with 4000 hours that they are killing.  I know your nation doesn't have a bunch of newbs/new players or hell even casuals, but mine does so I see it a lot more.  It's manually the guys with less than 400 hours that are constantly getting ganked and killed out side the capital and in the zones.   Yah your still going to have that old cranky trader vet that AFK sails with 4 trade ships and get caught, but he isn't the one that is getting farmed, he also can cut his lost and just make new ships and a new run as those guys tend to have millions and millions.   

Show me one game that allows you to camp a capital and kill players?   Every game I been on that has PvP/PvE and yes this game has both, you where restricted to PvP only in designated zones.  Even EvE you have to move away from the starting areas before you can even think of attacking some one else or there security zones would destroy you.   You need to let the new players and casuals grow and do there thing to have a healthy server player base number.  Eventually those players might get the wild hair up and come out and play.   

Any one notice ASP numbers have dropped?  They use to come out and fight ya'll over and over, but even they are getting tired of sinking and dieing over and over to the same vet groups coming up and farming out side of CT.  It gets old when you don't win a few fights and what fun is that.   We are hoping it's more the finals exams and end of school thing why there numbers dropped but I think it's more having to do with the constant farming just doesn't make the game fun for them.

@Kjartan you would be some one that could answer some of this.  Since your guys number dropped a lot recently and your clan has a lot of new players how do you feel about the reinforcement zones, vets coming camping the coast line and how it effects your clan players?

[Vile Executioner]

The game should not cater to the lack of knowhow from the defenders point of view, in a battle that is heavily against the aggressor both in terms of AI and battle open for 90 minutes. It is the defending nations fault the player in the reinforcement zone is not getting the reinforcements he wants from his nation. Fact is, if I tag someone outside french capital, for instance, I WILL get hit by a fleet of people ready to defend their newbies. If I hit someone on the US coast or British capital, well that’s just a joke. It’s all about team play in a sand box mmo. Remember the battles are open 24/7 and it’s so easy to ask the defender “which side of the battle is it, N,S,E,W?” And he tell you where location is and you can spawn right on top of the aggressor in most cases. It’s so easy to defend your seals from getting clubbed if you play as a team lol

[Fletch]

This game always seems to  follow the same cycle, everything gets slowly more and more stacked up against  the new player till we reach the tipping point, then drastic measures are brought in to try and revive the almost extinct gold fish bowl, then experienced pvprs come to forums and complain that they cant ruin every noobs day without getting sunk and things start stacking up against the new player again. I have noticed that missions seem to spawn outside the green zone and the result is much less people running missions at the capital, again another negative for the new player.  One day they simply wont be enough seals to club.

 

[Vile Executioner]

7 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

EvE you have to move away from the starting areas before you can even think of attacking some one else or there security zones would destroy you. 

Yes, but in order to do anything in EVE first you must leave HI sec to get anything done. There is no reason to leave reinforcement for the pve player. What reason do you have to leave reinforcement? You can build anything you want, do whatever you want, get whatever resource you want(even if it’s high priced) and be perfectly happy. That’s not a sandbox pvp game. There is s server out there to do exactly that.

[Tom Farseer]

The one experience I had with reinforcements was me happening on a battle just outside Port Antonio, so I know my perspective is somewhat limited.

Sir Loorkon in his Endy had tagged an LGV. The reinforcement was a Surprise. I joined the battle about 7-8 minutes after it started. By then Loorkon had almost killed the LGV (around 30% odf structure left) and the "reinforcement" was sailing around 400-500 m downwind of the battle. Not a scratch on it, the attacker didn't even need to chain. So either the guy in the LGV was trying to run from his own reinforcements, or they spawned in too far away.

My suggestions are:

1. Make sure Reinforcements spawn somewhere decent. (With the wind gauge or between the attacker and the attacked.)
2. Make sure the reinforcements acutally fit the attacker. Even a buffed up Surprise will not damage a half decent Endymion quickly enough to save an attacked trader, assuming the attacker isn't a newbie himself.

@admin I know you did not ask about player's skills, but I'd say it is linked to wether the reinforcements work, depending on how you want them to work. If they are supposed to give a newbie a fighting chance in case he get's attacked by another newbie, its probably fine. If they are supposed to offer new players some protection from anyone except other new players, they seem a bit underpowered.

[Vile Executioner]

3 minutes ago, Fletch67 said:

This game always seems to  follow the same cycle, everything gets slowly more and more stacked up against  the new player till we reach the tipping point, then drastic measures are brought in to try and revive the almost extinct gold fish bowl, then experienced pvprs come to forums and complain that they cant ruin every noobs day without getting sunk and things start stacking up against the new player again. I have noticed that missions seem to spawn outside the green zone and the result is much less people running missions at the capital, again another negative for the new player.  One day they simply wont be enough seals to club.

 

In what way, does this game allow seals to be clubbed in reinforcement zone? Every nation has players designated to their capital area to reinforce the new players. Look, if I never was handed pvp on my first week of playing, I’d not even be here now lol. It is up to the nation to put in the effort to help the newbie in a battle open FOR THE ENTIRE LENGTH OF THE BATTLE

Edited May 8, 2018 by Vile Executioner

[Vile Executioner]

2 minutes ago, Tom Farseer said:

So either the guy in the LGV was trying to run from his own reinforcements, or they spawned in too far away.

Reinforcements spawn between you and the attacker where the initial battle started from. So if you don’t call it right away, it will not be in a place where you need it to be.

[Vile Executioner]

16 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Any one notice ASP numbers have dropped?  They use to come out and fight ya'll over and over, but even they are getting tired of sinking and dieing over and over to the same vet groups coming up and farming out side of CT

It’s simply one thing, they can’t grasp the concept of wind needed to retain the energy to keep the battle in their favor long enough for them to kill the enemy they are fighting...lol. They don’t understand sailing or simple naval tactics, my advise to learn it is to leave the reinforcement zone, go to a place on the map with similar player experience(any other nation capital) and learn it like the rest of the vet community in the game did.