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Reinforcement fleets: feedback

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I think people need to reevaluate what it means to "win" as well.  Everyone seems to think you only "win" if you sink the enemy ship.  Simply escaping is a win too, but for some reason it's not recognized as such.  If battle is open forever for both sides, it shouldn't be.  I wouldn't know, since I generally sail alone.

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57 minutes ago, admin said:

Would love to talk about reinforcements mirrors and their strength and numbers.

Mirror quantities and boost rate strength for uneven engagements. Ignore Victims ship. Spawn reinforcements close to the Victim. Add 25 seconds preparation with boarding/damage protection before Ai is active. 

Spawn x1 rate(-) under for 1vs1.

ex. Player 4th rate(enemy) vs Player (Victim)

      -Spawn 5th rate AI (4-->5)

Spawn x1 rate(+) up for 2vs1

ex. Player 4 rate/ Player 5th rate(enemy) vs Player (Victim)

     -Spawn 3rd rate + 4th rate AI (4-->3/5-->4)

 

Edited by Wind

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I don't think they should exist anymore. Unless you sail to KPR with 1st rate fleet you're dead because they all jump you and chain to 50% in 2 min. 

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I enjoy hunting with my prince now. It’s a nice little challenge and totally fair play in reinforcement zone. I have to think of wind placement, I have to know that when I attack someone there will reinforcements id have to deal with and I have to get the job done quickly before any other player in their lineships jump into the battle. It feels like proper raiding again, and totally fair. The 6th rates feel very nice hunting the reinforcement zones. 

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With the battle being set open the reinforcements spawn is not the scariest thing that happens when sailing my prince. Even an enemy player that joins your battle on your side has influence on what happens. If a swedish 4th rate comes in my battle where I’m hunting down an indiaman with my prince, then I have to compete with the situation given to me or I have to just disengage. Which is fair I guess. Choosing a ship built with a unique sailing profile and enough power in crew or firepower to get the job done quickly and get out quickly is great. It does feel like proper privateering for sure, and I can’t complain.

Edited by Vile Executioner
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If you fought against them - what are you thoughts, do they provide enough protection to your enemy while keeping some risk?  Did you ever sink to reinforcement?

I haven't sunk to the new reinforcements nor do I see it happening. It was easy enough to avoid before let alone now. They are more of a nuisance to an attacking player rather than a deterrent. My hope is to tag them and that they spawn downwind so I can kill the player and then leave.

 

If you used reinforcements - when did they help and when they were useless?

They don't help really do anything unless it's a large group which provided some time to stall so other players could come help.

 

My suggestion

When attacking a larger player in small ship I feel they shouldn't get reinforcements at all. Adjust whether you get reinforcements based on BR. If they attack a trader brig with a trinc, they get a 1st rate super Victory as a reinforcement. If they attack with a smaller BR ship, they get nothing but obviously the battle stays open. It should be cumulative so if one person attacks in a snow and then a bellona jumps in on their side the defending player should be able to get reinforcements again.

It would encourage people to kill smaller prey without running away/calling reinforcements. It might encourage raiders to use small ships as they'd benefit from getting no reinforcements if they attacked. It'd be nice to not see enemy 1st rates sailing into reinforcement zones looking to nick a newbies brand new first rate.

Edited by Gregory Rainsborough
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2 hours ago, admin said:

Please provide your thoughts on the New class based reinforcement fleets. 

I've been in approx. 15 battles with new reinforcements, mainly around Gustavia and MT - always on attacking side. Approx. 70% were solo battles, 30% were with 2 people, one with 6. Feedback:

 

Do they work?

I've seen only one other captain starting a battle in a reinforcement zone while I was there. Most are waiting for being tagged. I guess they work and deter large groups from blocking capitals.

Are they deadly? - solo hunting

With a skilled captain attacking an unskilled SINGLE defending captain - usually no. New players don't sail to reinforcement or don't call them (maybe they should be told to do those two things). You can also escape from them easily by sailing up the wind and tacking - AI is horrible at tacking, and usually looses the wind when trying to shoot you. They also don't repair sails.

With a skilled captain attacking a SINGLE skilled captain - yes, they're deadly. I've lost a fight 2 times due reinforcements lowering my sides, and 1 time I had to disengage. I won only 1 such fight, by forcing a skilled captain to sail up the wind and cutting him from reinforcements. With a captain who stays close to reinforcements they're deadly - you won't angle once and a Cerberus can take 40% of your side on a teak/WO Trinc with a single salvo from close range.

The biggest risk with reinforcements is that once reinforcements join AND someone else joins the fight on enemy's, you're pretty much done. You either manage to disengage, or you sink. You don't want to get reinforcements on your side, as they will spawn additional strong AI on enemy's side.

Are they deadly? - group hunting

You can trick reinformements while in group by sailing close to them. They get focus on one ship, it hides behind an ally, and an ally sinks reinforcements. This however still takes a valuable time, in which you can't do anything else. In a group fights, where you have less control over what happens, reinforcements are a force that change things.

We've lost 4 battles due to reinforcements. At one point 4 ships joined (all frigates) and 4 pirates joined - we were done. At another point 2 Bellonas joined and 2 pirates, one of us sank after a long fight with less experienced players. Another time 2 frigates joined when we were fighting against a Le Gros. When we were almost done, a Wasa and a Frigate joined. Due to reinforcements lowering our sides at the beginning of the battle we lost a Surprise, our Trinc escaped.

 

Summary

They give a challenge to me (you can define yourself whether I'm a veteran or not). They prevent larger number of players from hunting around capital. They protect a captain who knows how to use them, and don't protect someone who doesn't. They can be a real help to a defending captain. Still, open battles are even greater risks, which were usually the main reason I sank in the zone (approx. 60% of times I sank).

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To talk a little on the games history I lived through it all. The topic of hunting near capitals is a good subject for me because I have done it all. I started as a US player long ago and I was given a surprise when I got to a rank where I could have 250 crew. I figured since the guy that gave me surprise for free was rich enough, I could use this to my advantage and hunt him down. I used his surprise that he gave me to kill his LGV and capture it and teleport to Mortimer town because now I was a pirate.

 

those days were harsh as a new player, but it’s what I enjoyed. Moving on...

 

im a pirate now and I enjoyed the thrill of hunting after my first victim. Next day I am in Mortimer town as a pirate, knowing I can attack my own without penalty other than possibly getting ganked and having to run away, I still risked it. When attacking even your own nation you got xp and gold. I was set on doing this until curse rank, which I did. I earned a reputation in these times, my nation hated me, but hunting outside capital waters is all I did. Log in, get pvp, log out. Was fun. Then first pirate vs pirate was removed, so now I decide to join british.

 

Im a british player now and I’m at war with french nation, I decided to raid there, using the small islands to hide and get cover, but there is forts now, things are a lot tougher for me. I have to attack him before fort range. Was a challenge for sure, but was successful for me nonetheless.

 

wipe came, outlaw battles are back, I join pirate. This time it’s free for all battles. Doesn’t make a difference for me, I did it anyway, still felt the exact same way. But people took notice, and started to do it with me, since it’s no longer a 1v1 deal, things got much easier for me, and also much harder, outlaw battles open for 30 minutes and there is no designated join circle, there has been plenty of times where a first rate spawned right in front of me 20 minutes into battle and I have to disengage.

 

reinforcement zones and the removal of outlaw battles, it’s much harder now. 2 first rates spawn when I am hunting french now. I have to keep my distance from the port, or get attacked myself. Which is never an advantage for a hunter. I want to make my own battles based on what’s in front of me. Success rate started to fall. I’d hang out in reinforcement gaps, but things are still tough, since people started to take note on the size of their zone.

 

now to modern times, I am a prussian privateer now, due to low population, I don’t have to compete with allys(this is why I enjoyed outlaw mechanics so much) I can play in the zone again, but it’s still hard. Battles open forever, anything can happen to me, nothing I’m afraid of though, I used to do outlaw battles that were 30 minutes open remember. Feels like the same exact experience I got when I was an outlaw pirate. And for that, since it is still hard, reinforcements can get hectic depending on the ship you use, it’s still very hard for a privateer, and it should be. This is the perfect mix between what we used to have in the past, to what it is now. 

Edited by Vile Executioner
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1 hour ago, admin said:

but remember it was more harsh on release. You could even attack your own. Do you have any theories on why you are connecting safety with online?

I'm not connecting safety with online.  But if you want to have an MMO that continues that retains it's players for longer than a weekend you need to put in some basic protections to ensure that your new players turn into older and satisfied players.  Most MMO games attempt to accomplish this.  Can you name me 1 MMO where a brand new player can travel forth 2mins outside his starting area and immediately engage and lose in PVP?  

I can't imagine historically that sloops and smaller frigates were openly sailing up to larger protected ports like Port Royal and capturing traders within clear view of the harbor?  Doubtful.  

The trade lanes to these ports were raided, which is precisely what needs to be happening with our game.  We should be having conversations about how to get these players OUT of the safe zones, not having conversations as how effectively one can raid inside of them.  We seem to be tailoring PVP to lazy captains who don't want to go out and properly hunt.  Why?  We should be thinking up ways to embolden the sheep and turn them into wolves.  

Edited by Christendom
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I haven't had any problem with them sailing for France, as most of our protection is made of players: which I think is good.

if people are so far away from the capital that player assistance is impossible, then I feel that they shouldn't have 100% protection like they used to. The combination of moderate AI support with player assistance makes zones less "all or nothing" and enables absolute security right at the capital with diminishing protection as you stray away.

overall I think it's good.

 

edit this may be more of a problem for weaker nations that don't always have a ship ready sally out and help.

Edited by Capt Aerobane

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@admin To put in my two-cents (I know this might be bordering on breaking the rule of staying on topic but please stick with me), I honestly don't think the problem here is AI, their power or effectiveness, I think what we should instead be doing is making the forts much stronger, one reason why fleets NEVER wanted to go into a harbour or choke point was because the great guns of forts were not only deadly, but could use ammunition no ship could pray to use, and beyond that the forts often used "Great" guns which were usually guns that ships could not fit due to their weight, one kind of shot used often by forts shortly after the seven year war "Heated Shot" became much more commonly used by forts, just one hit from this thing wasnt a guaranteed fire, but it'd keep the crew running to find the rounds (Which means you need to put more and more people on survival) but entire VOLLEYS of this shot could prove detrimental to the survival of the crew and the ship, the inclusion of heated shot would make forts more dangerous and a much more preferred ally in a gank situation. not only in shallow water but deep water as well.

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Reinforcement fleets no longer provide the protection they are supposed to give new guys, the population is dropping.

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3 hours ago, victor said:

So why did you ask for feedback? Who is chasing outside capitals? Noobs or veterans?

As far as direct feedback I cannot provide, since I switched to "cautious mode" trading as in the good old days of no reinforcements (but also of no PVP marks!), so I just use tricks to avoid hunters rather that having to use (useless) reinforcements.

 

I am not interested in Dron's skill level or MoscalB experience that christendom tried to push into the subject. I did not ask about skill levels in this topic.

Regarding your statement. We asked because we are really interested in players opinion.
You started to get nonconstructive lately. I don't understand the issue you are having with my question and don't understand why you even post if you have nothing to say.


We warned several times ago that we are restricting posting privileges for off topic in important feedback topics.
 

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The changes with reinforcment zones (Forever open battles) basically turned revenge fleets waiting outside into instant help

Now, some might see that as something good, others as bad. Personally I guess it's okay. IF there are other properly working areas for players actively looking for PvP (patrol zones; but those still need that RoE overhaul - they're basically the same as reinforcment zones at the moment with battels open for 30 min)

Have not had many battles in the reinforcment zones but from my experience they're not really doing much. Tagged an indefatigable in my trinc, he got an AI surprise as help. Could just ignore it and demast it once the player was finished.

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Needs to be AI  2 ships for every attacker in my opinion one can simply be taken out the picture with chain 

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4 hours ago, Christendom said:

I've attacked several players in the reinforcement zones over the past week or so.  It's now incredibly easy to sink traders again.  

Outside of Belize this weekend I tagged a player in an LGV just south of the port.  Get a great tag, load chain with prepared and immediately rigging shock the guy.  Sail over, push him into the wind, board and over.  Since I was in a trinco the AI reinforcement was a AI belle poole and it spawned behind and downwind.  It simply couldn't get to us.  Capped and sunk the guy and made a course upwind further out of the battle.  Easy.  AI was a joke.  I felt bad for this guy.

Another situation outside KPR myself and 3-4 other VCO/CSA guys snagged an traders brig with 2 in fleet.  He called in reinforcements, but since we were in frigates they were only AI frigates.  Rage boarded the guy and the other captains boarded his AI ships.  All sunk.  some light chain on the AI and we sailed away.  Easy.

The threat of matching AI 5th rates is not enough to deter myself from hunting.  the AI 1st rates were.  

I know I saw the ex RUBLI guys outside Habana this weekend ganking in the safe zone with Hercules.  I assume they were getting in quick to sink and then just hitting the jets and running away.  

Safe zones are a joke now.  And it's a shame

 

Basically this. I'm not really deterred by the reinforcements anymore. If I'm careful, I can sink the player and get out before reinforcements ever get to me. If the reinforcements spawn too close for comfort, I can out-sail them. AI isn't very smart and will repeatedly turn into the wind while trying to chase me close-hauled. In the battles we fought together, our team of frigates could easily smash a trader's fleet before the reinforcements become a problem.

Additional players joining late, on the other hand, is something for the hunter to worry about. It recently cost me a 3-wood type Surprise. RIP. Good fun though.

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27 minutes ago, Vile Executioner said:

 

And?...does that exclude people from an opinion...or are you saying you have to be one of the elite to decide?

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12 minutes ago, Vile Executioner said:

I see a lot of people talking about attacking in the reinforcement zone who are 10/10 times not on the pvp leaderboard...lol

Unlike some people on that leaderboard, people have other priorities and interests outside and inside Naval Action. Only taking the opinions of the elite and taking in very little the opinions of the casual base does not help create a healthy long term game enviroment. If progress is to be made all suggestions should be properly and equally taken into consideration. 

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26 minutes ago, seanjo said:

 

it does not. This topic is for everyone. His comment removed.

Captains we are interested in all opinions of people who use reinforcement from both sides. + tips from active hunters on how defenders can use reinforcements more effectively. 

 

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Imho the only protection the capital zones give is not reinforcement fleets but the forever open battles. Calling reinforcements is actually quite stupid as they block slots for your overkill of coastguard that will come to rescue you for the 0 to 1 pvp marks they get for killing the hunters.

Rather than having AI reinforcements we could think about an emergency distress call in nation chat via 'Clerk' with the exact position for the battle like 'British player got attacked 2k south of KPR. Attacker has 225 BR'. As this would give all the necessary intel the coastguard needs to come to help new players.

To the current reinforcement fleets... They break immersion, are stupid as hell, can't repair and for hunters easy to immobilize (chain, demasting).

Edited by Nelsons Barrel

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22 minutes ago, Vile Executioner said:

I’m saying it’s less relevant if you have no proof of you actually attacking someone in reinforcement zone to prove that you are capable of feedback. If you can’t prove to be the aggressor then you should only give feedback as the victim.

Other people have opinions too whether they are aggressors or victims. Many people have changed their habits and way on playing since these changes were introduced. Personally I used to attack a lot of AI fleets in the Belize green zone, now I have moved elsewhere. I have also heard of many solo hunters that avoid the green zones because of the forever open battles. Just because a person is not attacking someone or being attacked does not mean it has not affected their play. I knew from the start that nerfing the AI reinforcements would make it easier for the attackers as I have played a lot against AI and know how they sail, I would rather face a AI fleet at 3 times my BR than a 1v1 against another player of equal BR, because I know what the AI will do and can plan accordingly.

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4 hours ago, Iroquois Confederacy said:

Historically, even during the Revolution when the Continentals had a garbage navy, even they could raid the United Kingdom itself.  There is no such thing as "safety" on the ocean.

Historically you didn't sit in the bay of London killing folks either.  One of my biggest issues with the zones and this is mainly going off the CT one cause I haven't went to KPR or French zones to check how they are, but CT has a big empty zone right at the mouth of the bay that is not protected for a good bit that folks farm at.  You have to pass through this zone to get out of the Capital waters and back into reinforcement zones.  What is even the point of having the zones if the capitals aren't protected properly to let newbs and casuals do there thing?

21 minutes ago, Vile Executioner said:

I see a lot of people talking about attacking in the reinforcement zone who are 10/10 times not on the pvp leaderboard...lol

KFC is prime proof you can kill a bunch of noobs and never make it on the Leader board, when all your doing is killing Trade ships which give you very little points compared to bigger ships.  Just look at the other weekend when we had those Port Battles with Brits.  I think you or Bandish was the only one that made it on the leader board, can't remember any of the french and how many use small ships got sunk that night.  While if you listen to KFC it was like 40 ships.  By our count more like 10-20 ships lost all 6th rates and only you two made it on the leader board and that is prob from hunting in other places.  So yah leader board doesn't always tell things, but also it tells a lot.  Just about every time I see some one brag about kiling a large number ships there stats on the board was very small so it tells you all they where doing was farming newbs, trade ships and small ships or doing big group ganks so you get very little points.

I want to point out another game that many of us played before and wonder why our gaming model is pretty much backwards? In POTBS you couldn't attack another player unless your in the red zone (any one remember my alt Dead in the Red?  Yah joke name off POTBS).   You created the red zones by doing agro on a port.  The bigger circle only pirates and Privateers could attack you in.  They had all the rest of the ocean as a safe zone and the game ran great, had tons of PvP, cause we knew where it was.  We didn't have to camp capitals or new player zones.   You wanted PvP you flipped a port or put agro on it, most the time we never even flipped it, just keep a constant red zone in that center.  I think the biggest problem with this game is we don't give the PvPer's that incentive to make there own zones and stay in them.  Instead they go and haress every one but each other. I seen several nations of PvPers sitting right next to each other not attacking waiting on traders and noobs to come out of a port.  Than they wonder why there isn't any PVP?  If you want PvP than go flip another nations port.  I bet you if a certain nation "A" flipped a port of "B" PvPers there would be a fight out side that port and they would get all the PvP they want.   

O63V1ey.png

Ok back to our game NA.  As many folks have stated the reinforcement/safe zones are a nice touch to the game to give false security to new players and the casuals.  The problem is that is all they do, they don't actually help and all you do is give the open inventation for the gankers and want to be PvPers to go feed off them.  I don't want a completely safe game. I do my trade runs in OW out of the safe zones when I do them.  I do most my econ except my ship building out of open water not safe ports.   That is me though I been playing this game a long time and I don't need that security. I get on during off hours and run my runs when there is hardly any one on, I know the main hunting grounds and times when players are on. I make my runs when they aren't on, but the causal/new players don't have that option.  Instead they see the same guys over and over in front of there capitals picking off ships.  Yes we can all say, "GO PLAY SOME OTHER PORT." But many of these guys they pick off never leave the capital coast line either.  The game needs those players and numbers to remain active. Cause some of them do finaly leave and get into PvP/RvR and grow into vet players or more than casuals.

My point is reienforcement zones should not be the prime hunting grounds if some one is looking for a fight.  It should be in areas like POTBS that are hotzones.  Though since this game is a sand box it's allowed, but we shouldn't make these zones easy for folks to pick off easy targets of those that aren't aware of all the game mechanics and how to play to the best of the game allows them to.

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2 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

KFC is prime proof you can kill a bunch of noobs and never make it on the Leader board, when all your doing is killing Trade ships which give you very little points compared to bigger ships. 

All you have to do is kill 2-3 people to be on leaderboard when solo hunting. That is big ships or traders. It’s really not even difficult.

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6 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Yes we can all say, "GO PLAY SOME OTHER PORT." But many of these guys they pick off never leave the capital coast line either.  The game needs those players and numbers to remain active. Cause some of them do finaly leave and get into PvP/RvR and grow into vet players or more than casuals

We need more reason to push people out of the reinforcement zone in general. There is no reason 4000 hour sailors at max rank should be able to do anything they want to do in game in reinforcement zone. 

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3 minutes ago, Vile Executioner said:

All you have to do is kill 2-3 people to be on leaderboard when solo hunting. That is big ships or traders. It’s really not even difficult.

Exactly solo hunting, but a lot of these so call guys that brag about all there PvP aren't solo hunting and that is why many of them don't get on the Board or they have very low points.  You take a 50 point ship and split if 50 ways that is only 10 points.  So you really don't get up there on the leader board like a solo hunter would.  Most the problem in these zones aren't the solo hunters. I have no issue with those guys.  It's the guys that come in groups of 3-10 and than jump every solo player they see and call that PvP.    Than they cry they can't find any PvP all the while avoiding other PvP groups doing the same thing.

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