Trying to solve revenge fleet problem

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Rick Astley said:

You also have the benefit of sailing at 75 times normal speed to gank your pray..... expect the x75 times speed to be returned to you.

 

Basically after reading your suggestions all I seem to make out of it is this 

 

" @admin I want to be able to attack defenseless traders alone steal there cargo and sink his ship for PVP marks as I so good of a captain I want to be able to get my pray and then get away without any repercussion, I want to be able to sail at 75 times normal time in Open world to catch my pray.... but I don;t want the other side to be able to do it. I want to be able to attack my defenseless pray without being interrupted as I'm really a bad player... True PVPers can do it and do it well but I'm slow and to be honest rubbish at this game so want you to make it easier for me."

There summed your pathetic whine up perfectly. If I can do it and many others like @The Red Duke for instance in his Privateer... why cannot you guys?? Why must this entire game revolve around you easy mode!!

And the prey in OW travels at 75x the speed of the battle instance - i.e. the same as the hunter.. And btw I do not think anyone has mentioned "realism" as a goal by itself I believe I specifically stated that invisibility is one game mechanic being tested among several others where the goal is to find the correct balance between OW instance and battle instance. If you want to sail with impunity wether in a warship or a trader - go to the dedicated PvE server.. Being ganked or just tagged by a singular hunter is part of the game and I believe most here can attest that I've lost and capped plenty of ships and mostly in good spirits even when I was on the receiving end of a gank. And for the record - the only one whining atm is you and I'd appreciate it if you kept your tone civil. This is a gameplay discussion for a game in development, not an open invitation for someone frantically complaining about the RoE leading to him or her losing their ship or whatever. Fact is the possibility to camp a battle site is not conducive for PvP gameplay and entirely unrealistic. The tp from OP to OP is not realistic but atleast leads to more PvP. Open timers for PvP battles is not conducive for PvP gameplay. Invisibility can be exploited and as such is not conducive for PvP gameplay. Traders run the risk of being cought - that's the name of the game. Good traders (and I count myself amongst the very best) run, hide and keeps an eye on their surroundings at all times - yet get cought every once in a while anyway. Good hunters stays fast, attentive to their surroundings and more often than not gets to decide the location for a battle - i.e. has the upper hand especially against traders. They are however always at risk of being counter-ganked when spotted by anyone who's alert enough to yell out in nationchat or TS. 

 

1 hour ago, elite92 said:

i can add:

Remove Open World as we know it and make all 1 Big Instance in which every1 play, reduce the map to 1 small region with real distance and travel speed, and when u sail and u see something u can fire at will with no compression, Like a real MMO. NO ROE

And what exactly would be left of the playerbase? - OW is a major attraction for a lot of players even if it doesn't appeal to you. You've pleaded for a removal of OW before and I can only say - have patience NA legends (or whatever the name is going to be) will be out and appeal to players that wants the battles only.

[surfimp]

@Liquicity I hear what you are saying about being frustrated by revenge fleets, but adding in a post battle "teleport to port" option creates its own host of issues:

- Gank fleet cruises enemy waters, finds lone ship, enters battle, sinks target ship, uses "teleport to port" to escape risk free with their PVP marks.

- A  player trader attacks an AI trade ship, ignores it during battle, then uses "teleport to port" to get a risk free transport of their cargo back home.

- Two Pirates are far from home and decide they're tired of sailing the OW. One attacks the other, they ignore each other till timer runs out, then get free "teleport to port" to sail home risk free.

I'm not a super clever exploiter by any means, but those are three examples of abuses of a "teleport to port" mechanic in the post-battle screen.

I want to be clear: I am not against finding a constructive counterplay solutions to the revenge fleet issue - and especially, the revenge fleet doing multiple re-tags - it's just that we need to come up with a solution that doesn't cause as many if not more problems than it solves. Emphatically, I believe the solution to revenge fleets needs to be something that uses player skill, not a "get out of jail free" card.

[Rick Astley]

2 minutes ago, Bearwall said:

If you want to sail with impunity wether in a warship or a trader - go to the dedicated PvE server.. Being ganked or just tagged by a singular hunter is part of the game and I believe most here can attest that I've lost and capped plenty of ships and mostly in good spirits even when I was on the receiving end of a gank.

Please quote me saying I have a problem being attacked... I enjoy PVPing and I have not had an issue with it like others are mentioning in this conversation. I have sunk player ships and captured traders. I cannot find where your argument is as I have not experienced the same problems you and a few others are experiencing. I have yet to lose a ship to PVP or PB *Touch Wood* (Famous last words) but if I'm not having issues then why should I go play on the PVE server? surely if PVPing is such a problem for you then you should go there.

[TommyShelby]

Just now, Sansón Carrasco said:

@Liquicity I hear what you are saying about being frustrated by revenge fleets, but adding in a post battle "teleport to port" option creates its own host of issues:

- Gank fleet cruises enemy waters, finds lone ship, enters battle, sinks target ship, uses "teleport to port" to escape risk free with their PVP marks.

- A  player trader attacks an AI trade ship, ignores it during battle, then uses "teleport to port" to get a risk free transport of their cargo back home.

- Two Pirates are far from home and decide they're tired of sailing the OW. One attacks the other, they ignore each other till timer runs out, then get free "teleport to port" to sail home risk free.

I'm not a super clever exploiter by any means, but those are three examples of abuses of a "teleport to port" mechanic in the post-battle screen.

I want to be clear: I am not against finding a constructive counterplay solutions to the revenge fleet issue - and especially, the revenge fleet doing multiple re-tags - it's just that we need to come up with a solution that doesn't cause as many if not more problems than it solves. Emphatically, I believe the solution to revenge fleets needs to be something that uses player skill, not a "get out of jail free" card.

Well, there is several suggestions hidden away in this topic that doesn't have those issues. 

Mine is TP to nearest free port but only if you were the "defender" in the battle. 

[Hawkwood]

8 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

It's got nothing to do with 'fair fights'

If this game is supposed to be realistic and hardcore, as it's advertised on the steam store page, revenge fleets aka camping on a battle location to farm easy kills has to go

In my understanding, hardcore means, if you loose something, you lost it, no way to take revenge using hyperwarp ships

Realistic means, after a battle, a captain would sail / escape to a friendly port to refill supply; not having to deal with in-teleporting reinforcements, aka fallout constitutions. I dont know a single other MMO that works this way.

Us prefering fair fights rather than 5v1 roflstomps has nothing to do with the game mechanic, but with the player's mentality / way of approaching the game.

Even if you get ganked 1v5, so be it, game is supposed to be realistic / hardcore, so if no reinforcement is around (still got 3 min join timer, which is a lot), you're pretty much doomed.

Allowing to take revenge on anything by sort of abusing the way the game works with its two instances massively discourages people to 'create' pvp, but rather wait and chill in port until someone "stupid enough" comes by to deliver pvp, to then camp on his battle pos. and get easy kills.
How dare anyone deliver pvp.

If talking about hardcore and realistic, we have then different approaches.

There must be a "punishment" or at least "high risk" for those which are sailing single or small groups into enemy waters. Means revenge fleet is legit imo.

On the other hand, if the attacked one escapes, there is no need for teleportation or 23rd century technology, when the friends are waiting outside.

Ok, not good enough. You probably disagree.

Then tell me where do we meet in the middle with those 2 radical opinions of yours and mine?

[Rick Astley]

2 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

Well, there is several suggestions hidden away in this topic that doesn't have those issues. 

Mine is TP to nearest free port but only if you were the "defender" in the battle. 

You would have the same troubles then, players would just wait by the free port. I cannot see how a balance can be brought up with this with exploits for traders in Pirate or alts.

 

People wanted a hardcore PVP game, now they have it they don't want to be ganked themselves. Just cannot see what the devs can do to make it fair for everyone. Maybe have the game how it was this time last year.

[Liq]

1 minute ago, Cortez said:

If talking about hardcore and realistic, we have then different approaches.

There must be a "punishment" or at least "high risk" for those which are sailing single or small groups into enemy waters. Means revenge fleet is legit imo.

On the other hand, if the attacked one escapes, there is no need for teleportation or 23rd century technology, when the friends are waiting outside.

Ok, not good enough. You probably disagree.

Then tell me where do we meet in the middle with those 2 radical opinions of yours and mine?

in my first post of this thread I suggested adjusting invis time to 45 sec, and at the same time have a 150% speed boost, aka 1.5 times the speed you would normally sail with, into any point of wind.
if the revengefleeters outside are profiting from an improoved speed to camp on battle pos., why not give the ones in battle at least a fair chance of getting away aswell?

ofc that would need to be adjusted for outlaw battles to avoid obvious exploits.

[Prater]

4 minutes ago, Cortez said:

If talking about hardcore and realistic, we have then different approaches.

There must be a "punishment" or at least "high risk" for those which are sailing single or small groups into enemy waters. Means revenge fleet is legit imo.

On the other hand, if the attacked one escapes, there is no need for teleportation or 23rd century technology, when the friends are waiting outside.

Ok, not good enough. You probably disagree.

Then tell me where do we meet in the middle with those 2 radical opinions of yours and mine?

There already is high risk.  Being spotted by one person can bring a whole fleet down upon you before you even get into battle, there is no need for revenge fleets outside a battle if people sailed smarter.

 

But hey, people want warping ships, as if this is a space sim.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Prater

[TommyShelby]

2 minutes ago, Rick Astley said:

You would have the same troubles then, players would just wait by the free port. I cannot see how a balance can be brought up with this with exploits for traders in Pirate or alts.

 

People wanted a hardcore PVP game, now they have it they don't want to be ganked themselves. Just cannot see what the devs can do to make it fair for everyone. Maybe have the game how it was this time last year.

Revenge fleet will have to make a choice;
- Stay at battle location or go to Free Port.
- Split up and try to cover both or stay together and cover only 1 of them. 

Also means the person who escaped the revenge fleet 1 time already (Because you'd have to escape revenge fleet 1 time and you can't defensive tag) can log off in the free port if he has stuff to do in real life. 

It also means people can't be repeatedly tagged for hours upon hours (I call it griefing). Generally it just makes the game a bit more accessible to those that don't have unlimited time. 

[Prater]

I still think you should be able to log off in battle (once it says battle over).  90 minutes is a long time in and of itself.

Edited June 18, 2017 by Prater

[Hawkwood]

6 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

in my first post of this thread I suggested adjusting invis time to 45 sec, and at the same time have a 150% speed boost, aka 1.5 times the speed you would normally sail with, into any point of wind.
if the revengefleeters outside are profiting from an improoved speed to camp on battle pos., why not give the ones in battle at least a fair chance of getting away aswell?

ofc that would need to be adjusted for outlaw battles to avoid obvious exploits.

Not really historical boosting a speed don`t you think?

However, calling for help on a "radio", not very historical too.

So?

How to get out of this misery?

[elite92]

OP?

[akd]

modified my compromise proposal to address ROE and battle camping:

2 min to join battle, unless you have signal perk and are attacked by a superior force.  Signal perk should be a balance of time open vs. BR ratio reinforcement allowed (the higher the reinforcement ratio, the shorter the time to remain open). 30 seconds invisibility on exit.  Also 2 min invulnerability after exiting battle, but only if you don't move.  When you log back in, you are visible, you can be attacked, but you cannot attack for 5 min. Could reduce after battle time by 5-10 min. Effects:

-no hiding in port to join battles, limits on hiding out of view to join battles.

-signal perk allows home defense fleets to respond directly to ganks of solo players, with probability of help increasing in proportion to proximity of friendly, populated ports.  Battles will either start "fair" or become "fair" if there is a home defense fleet available (yes, "fairness" will always be subjective).

-2 min invulnerability would allow you to log-off at sea in the face of revenge fleet, but 1.) you must commit to logging off almost immediately on exit and 2.) cannot try and run first.  If you want to run, you have only the 30 sec. invisibility.

-if you log-off, opposition has successfully removed you as a threat (home defense success) and knows exactly where you will be if you log in.  Home will be defended as long as home defense fleet remains a fleet in being.

-opposition knows whether you are logging off or running.  No fog-of-war about people hiding in finished battles or teleporting away (other than to nearest port, which if operating in enemy waters is again self-balancing).

-long no attack timer on logging back in makes log-off after battle less useful for ambushes.

-you don't get to retag players near their own ports over and over if they legitimately escape, because they can also use 2min to TP to nearest port.  Almost useless for (non-smuggler) players sailing in enemy waters, so abuse potential is low.  Teleport should be modified so that deep ships go to nearest deep port and shallow ships go to nearest port.

-under this system "vengeance" following a fair battle or retag griefing may temporarily block a player from play, but it is not going to make them lose all their shit and almost inevitably quit.  Getting blocked from play sucks, but is a reasonable consequence to getting outnumbered.  Being held hostage to game and forced to play for an unlimited amount of time or lose all your shit is a fatal design flaw.

-if necessary, all protections could be removed when exiting a severe "gank" that did not receive reinforcements

TL/DR - if in friendly waters or near a free port, you have a post-battle risk removal option.  If in enemy waters, you cannot remove post-battle risk and must pay time tax to avoid revenge fleet and reduce (but not eliminate) risk.  Most importantly: no one is ever put in a position where they have to keep playing for an indeterminate amount of time.

Edited June 18, 2017 by akd

[Liq]

Just now, Cortez said:

Not really historical boosting a speed don`t you think?

However, calling for help on a "radio", not very historical too.

So?

How to get out of this misery?

It's not; but it's also not quite historical to have 30 knots ships (OW) in the first place

The most realistic thing after an engagement would be that the captain would safely sail back to a friendly port, since his opponent couldnt have called in for help from fallout constitutions. And as we  DO have chat / teamspeak, AND hyperwarp ships in OW, a solution needs to be found around that.

On December 29th the USS Constitution under the command of Captain Bainbridge was off the coast of San Salvadore.  Bainbridge spotted a British ship closer to shore.  The ship was the 38 gun HMS Java commanded by Captain Henry Labert.  The Java was quicker then the Constitution while the 44 gun Constitution out gunned the Java. 
The Java was towing an American Merchant ship that it had captured.  When it spotted the Constitution it sent its captured ship into San Salvador Harbor and raced to face the Constitution.  At 2PM the two ships were within cannon range.  The two sides faced each other with broadsides While the Java initially out maneuvered the Constitution, the latters larger number of guns and the greater accuracy of its gunnery took a steady toll on the Java.   By 3PM Captain Lambert had concluded that his only hope was to board the Constitution.  That attempt failed when an accurate broadside struck his ship by the constitution that brought down his Top Mast and foremast.  By 4:20 the Java’s main mask fell.  An hour later when the Constitution was nearing for another run on the stricken ship the Java struck her colors and surrendered.

What do you think happened after this engagement? A) Java called for help and ships teleported in to finish the Constitution, or B.) The constitution sailed back to port?

[TommyShelby]

On 6/17/2017 at 3:28 PM, elite92 said:

hey guys i quote myself from another topic to make this read by every1:

i was thinking: and if instead of teleport to friendly port after u escape a battle we test a exit to port? so if u escape a battle u can decide to exit to ow as it is now or to exit to the nearest deep water port, in this way the revenge fleet will not be so sure to find u near the swords. i think its worth a test.

if u gank near the capital maybe u are dead anyway if u escape to port but its ok  think about it:

u tag a trader of [HELLOKITTY] clan, u capture it and while u are in battle he obviusly ask for help by his clanmates, so 10 players magically teleport to outpost and exit to camp ur battle instance and cover all the directions u would take; at the battle over u decide to exit to nearest port and the revenge fleet is useless BUT u are still likely in the enemy territory and still a potential target for every1.

seems good in my mind but maybe im a tard idiot...

edit: add invisibility of 60 seconds in both way, if u choose to exit to OW and also if u choose to exit in front of the nearest deep water port so u give a chance to the poor solo player but if the revenge fleet is smart he is dead anyway but if he smarter can continue his journey towards an ally port and maybe exit to a friendly when he is closer

Thought i'd "repost" elite's original proposal so that people who joins the discussion actually sees it.

[Hawkwood]

7 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

It's not; but it's also not quite historical to have 30 knots ships (OW) in the first place

The most realistic thing after an engagement would be that the captain would safely sail back to a friendly port, since his opponent couldnt have called in for help from fallout constitutions. And as we  DO have chat / teamspeak, AND hyperwarp ships in OW, a solution needs to be found around that.

On December 29th the USS Constitution under the command of Captain Bainbridge was off the coast of San Salvadore.  Bainbridge spotted a British ship closer to shore.  The ship was the 38 gun HMS Java commanded by Captain Henry Labert.  The Java was quicker then the Constitution while the 44 gun Constitution out gunned the Java. 
The Java was towing an American Merchant ship that it had captured.  When it spotted the Constitution it sent its captured ship into San Salvador Harbor and raced to face the Constitution.  At 2PM the two ships were within cannon range.  The two sides faced each other with broadsides While the Java initially out maneuvered the Constitution, the latters larger number of guns and the greater accuracy of its gunnery took a steady toll on the Java.   By 3PM Captain Lambert had concluded that his only hope was to board the Constitution.  That attempt failed when an accurate broadside struck his ship by the constitution that brought down his Top Mast and foremast.  By 4:20 the Java’s main mask fell.  An hour later when the Constitution was nearing for another run on the stricken ship the Java struck her colors and surrendered.

What do you think happened after this engagement? A) Java called for help and ships teleported in to finish the Constitution, or B.) The constitution sailed back to port?

Yeah i get it..

Well then.

When a battle begins, nobody can join anymore,and after the battle is over, everyone gets back to their starting position, WITHOUT possibility to go to OW?

Would that come closer to your thinking?

So attacker needs to start all over(Free Port), and the attacked one is safe in the harbour?(if he can escape)

[Liq]

11 minutes ago, Cortez said:

Yeah i get it..

Well then.

When a battle begins, nobody can join anymore,and after the battle is over, everyone gets back to their starting position, WITHOUT possibility to go to OW?

Would that come closer to your thinking?

So attacker needs to start all over(Free Port), and the attacked one is safe in the harbour?(if he can escape)

2 min join timer is OK IMO, so ships in range / sight are able to join. You shouldnt be able to tag someone and locking out another ship which didnt make it into the tiny tag circle by one inch.
Anything above two min join timer runs the risk of people camping in ports to wait and hop out and jump an ongoing battle. Preparing a ship for combat took its time.

I think you should be able to choose to enter to OW if you wish to do so

I also see why 'teleporting' to port brings a few flaws with it. Free TP tickets across the map and such.

It's really tough. Devs kinda chose the supreme discipline, making an OW MMO with two (OW and Battle) instances.

[Hethwill]

46 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

It's not; but it's also not quite historical to have 30 knots ships (OW) in the first place

The most realistic thing after an engagement would be that the captain would safely sail back to a friendly port, since his opponent couldnt have called in for help from fallout constitutions. And as we  DO have chat / teamspeak, AND hyperwarp ships in OW, a solution needs to be found around that.

On December 29th the USS Constitution under the command of Captain Bainbridge was off the coast of San Salvadore.  Bainbridge spotted a British ship closer to shore.  The ship was the 38 gun HMS Java commanded by Captain Henry Labert.  The Java was quicker then the Constitution while the 44 gun Constitution out gunned the Java. 
The Java was towing an American Merchant ship that it had captured.  When it spotted the Constitution it sent its captured ship into San Salvador Harbor and raced to face the Constitution.  At 2PM the two ships were within cannon range.  The two sides faced each other with broadsides While the Java initially out maneuvered the Constitution, the latters larger number of guns and the greater accuracy of its gunnery took a steady toll on the Java.   By 3PM Captain Lambert had concluded that his only hope was to board the Constitution.  That attempt failed when an accurate broadside struck his ship by the constitution that brought down his Top Mast and foremast.  By 4:20 the Java’s main mask fell.  An hour later when the Constitution was nearing for another run on the stricken ship the Java struck her colors and surrendered.

What do you think happened after this engagement? A) Java called for help and ships teleported in to finish the Constitution, or B.) The constitution sailed back to port?

Yes, classic

Can you please now share exactly what happened to the Cleopatra versus Ville-de-Milan and subsequent battle with the Leander. Thank you.

Tip, Leander didn't join the first battle but knew it was going on. Classic example of victorious defeat.

( this situation is a gordian knot... )

[Prater]

Leander didn't travel 600 nautical miles, nor did it have radio.  It happened upon it by accident.  Nor were there 10 other British ships all coming from different directions because a net had been set out to make sure Ville-de-Milan couldn't get away.

[Liq]

5 minutes ago, The Red Duke said:

Yes, classic

Can you please now share exactly what happened to the Cleopatra versus Ville-de-Milan and subsequent battle with the Leander. Thank you.

Would be an honour if you'd enlight us with your knowledge.

[Hethwill]

4 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

Would be an honour if you'd enlight us with your knowledge.

Leander did wait until the engagement was over and both ships damaged and captured/re-captured.

That's the short form.

The bigger one is about demasting but I hope we don't nitpick every single engagement. We all know rakes were deadly.

( note: there's something from RL we don't have and the game provides something RL doesn't have, prevalent currents and winds versus real time comms )

[Liq]

1 minute ago, The Red Duke said:

Leander did wait until the engagement was over and both ships damaged and captured/re-captured.

That's the short form.

The bigger one is about demasting

But surely that's a coincidence; as there was no mean of communication to set up a net, as prater mentionned?

[Hethwill]

2 hours ago, Liquicity said:

But surely that's a coincidence; as there was no mean of communication to set up a net, as prater mentionned?

True...kind of.

Was a well known passage. That's the RL thing, you can't simply go wherever, must follow currents and winds. In game we can go anywhere.

I am a fan of the big circle tag with 2 minutes join at the edge.

The exit of battle is the thing that kills me, on one side I like the credible way of treating a escape with prize, a making away after a "specops" attack in a enemy "harbor", on the other I do really support a way to not prolong the game time beyond necessary.

So I've came to make a peace, the more mechanics are that shut down exploits the better.

Have experienced all of the mentioned before. Being tagged continuously while raiding near Panama, having revenge deployment in front of Cartagena and Fort Zoutman, having late entries near Port Morant.

In all of them I knew the risk, especially at Morant and Zoutman. Alas the reward possibility was just too tempting.

Did I have the "insert coin to get out easy mode" they would never had the chance to recapture the lost traders or save a companion. For me it would be a field day, for them not so much and very displeasing.

PvP has this special thing where it is willingly conducted and unwillingly and we cannot simply look to the "willing" side of it.

When you attack another squadron with the same numbers who can say they are willing to do battle ?

Not TP to outposts. Join at the distance equivalent to old big circle edge. 2 minutes. No teleport on exit.

90 seconds invisibility on exit of non outlaw pvp battle, no start/join battles for 125 seconds after leaving port or battle.

[Vllad]

Any suggestions to make NA realistic is a waste of time unless you start by scaling the real world and sailing speeds and eliminating instant based combat. The minute instants are introduced you must suspend any belief that you can simulate reality. Generally reality sucks anyway. 

This is a combat "GAME" not a sim to have us deal with the realities of scurvy, no wind, bad currents and a whole slew of other things are just not fun. 

I don't even buy into peoples arguments about reality. If they were serious about it they would be offering many more suggestions on other non realistic issues. People just use reality as a lazy way to debate a mechanic they don't like. 

 

[Niels Terkildsen]

Quote

Naval Action is a hardcore, realistic, and beautifully detailed naval combat sandbox immersing players into the experience of the most beautiful period of naval history - when sailing ships ruled the seas.

- http://store.steampowered.com/app/311310/

 

 

Sorry about contributing to the "noise".