Norbert Sattler Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 (edited) So... what was this again about the AI only reacting with massive task forces to big forces of the player? I have task forces of only 2 BBs out and no port of mine holds more than 4 ships... For more context the French have a total of 6 BBs, 36 CAs, 71 CLs, 37 DDs and 64 TBs... and they sent all that after a single one of my ships. Edited July 2, 2022 by Norbert Sattler 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havaduck Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 32 minutes ago, Norbert Sattler said: So... what was this again about the AI only reacting with massive task forces to big forces of the player? I have task forces of only 2 BBs out and no port of mine holds more than 4 ships... For more context the French have a total of 6 BBs, 36 CAs, 71 CLs, 37 DDs and 64 TBs... and they sent all that after a single one of my ships. It is realistic and ships have ran historically in situations where they were hopelessly outmatched to a degree of being run over like a roadkill. It should be outright expected since you know the AI has subspace drives /s. Yeah I know the AI loves to pounce with all their ships on task forces that cant defend itself. It a no-win situation. Lets say you commit to a decisive fleet action. If you loose, well thats bad but you are the player you will manage. Hopefully. If you anihilate the AI then what? It just lost the majority of its ships in a battle that is more work than fun and has no reserves left. This then leaves us with those shitty Task force vs 1 TB fights. Much fun. I read previously people complaining the AI to make to fast of a comeback. The worst thing is running out of stuff to kill. On normal or whatever sure. Make it realistic. But if I crank that up I want the AI to pump out ships. I just dont want to face them all at once. Anyway AI decissions against human task forces summerized: - Screw you guys, I am not comming out. (Will continue to send like 1 boat on suicide missions). - Something it can outpower at least 2:1 and then when asked by the battlemake how many ships the human player should face .... Its not meant as negativly as it sounds tough but the battle maker needs simply more work. For now its a step in the right direction that battle creation doesnt suddendly stop because of a plethora of bugs. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norbert Sattler Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 Yes, but a real fleet didn't need to worry about FPS, memory and crashes. Also I doubt there was ever a case in history where any nation sent 167 ships after a single enemy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SodaBit Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 (edited) 22 minutes ago, havaduck said: It is realistic and ships have ran historically in situations where they were hopelessly outmatched to a degree of being run over like a roadkill. It should be outright expected since you know the AI has subspace drives /s. Yeah I know the AI loves to pounce with all their ships on task forces that cant defend itself. It a no-win situation. Lets say you commit to a decisive fleet action. If you loose, well thats bad but you are the player you will manage. Hopefully. If you anihilate the AI then what? It just lost the majority of its ships in a battle that is more work than fun and has no reserves left. This then leaves us with those shitty Task force vs 1 TB fights. Much fun. I read previously people complaining the AI to make to fast of a comeback. The worst thing is running out of stuff to kill. On normal or whatever sure. Make it realistic. But if I crank that up I want the AI to pump out ships. I just dont want to face them all at once. Anyway AI decissions against human task forces summerized: - Screw you guys, I am not comming out. (Will continue to send like 1 boat on suicide missions). - Something it can outpower at least 2:1 and then when asked by the battlemake how many ships the human player should face .... Its not meant as negativly as it sounds tough but the battle maker needs simply more work. For now its a step in the right direction that battle creation doesnt suddendly stop because of a plethora of bugs. Not only is the AI still building way too many ships, they've learned to make deathstack tastforces. That's more ships in a single taskforce than the UK had in the Grand Fleet during the first World War. Edited July 2, 2022 by SodaBit It got even bigger 3 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norbert Sattler Posted July 2, 2022 Share Posted July 2, 2022 I later pulled my six dreadnoughts together and confronted the massive enemy fleet I posted above. The AI just can't handle this many ships it would seem. Their BBs were just going in circles and everything else just kept circling around the BBs and crashing into each other. I kept blasting away at the enemy at the maximum range of my 5" secondaries and despite the enemy seeing me the entire time they only returned fire every blue moon. Only when the timer was below 20 mintues did they start to properly fire at my ships. Prior to that I received 196 shots of which only a single one hit. I presume that by the 20 minute mark I had reduced the enemy to a number at which the AI could think again... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M3rky1 Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 So think I figured out what I thought and I think other people thought was a bug. When making hard turns your turrets seem to stop moving. It appears to be an affect of your steering gears using your auxiliary power. So the ship can only provide so much power and if you don't have a good aux engine and you have for example electric 2 steering, it's going to suck all the power from your turrets to use for turning. When I used a better aux engine and hydroelectric steering the turrets appeared to work better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralsnackbar Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 13 minutes ago, Norbert Sattler said: I later pulled my six dreadnoughts together and confronted the massive enemy fleet I posted above. The AI just can't handle this many ships it would seem. Their BBs were just going in circles and everything else just kept circling around the BBs and crashing into each other. I kept blasting away at the enemy at the maximum range of my 5" secondaries and despite the enemy seeing me the entire time they only returned fire every blue moon. Only when the timer was below 20 mintues did they start to properly fire at my ships. Prior to that I received 196 shots of which only a single one hit. I presume that by the 20 minute mark I had reduced the enemy to a number at which the AI could think again... I notice something similar. IDK if this is: 1. because of the large number of ships set on 'evade' 2. ships set on 'screen' 3. AI orders for ships telling them to stop 4. damaged ships that can't move and other ships around it are just loitering 5. some combo of the above Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havaduck Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 27 minutes ago, SodaBit said: Not only is the AI still building way too many ships, they've learned to make deathstack tastforces. That's more ships in a single taskforce than the UK had in the Grand Fleet during the first World War. Dear Lord ....... The last time I saw Doomstacks of these magnitude it was Civilization III on the highest difficulty ...... Another battle and this time the AI was really good, making me work hard for the victory: 40 ships is probably the my pain tollerance for battle size. Maybe a little bit past that but I did actually really enjoy that one as you will see. Another glimpse of the huge potential this game has. The first victims already went fully under. Lost 2 torpedo boats already keeping the BBs from interfering. Yet the AI stubbornly keeps a ...... battle line! EXCELLENT! (I am keeping 1 TB in reserve, but frankly at this point I forgot about it ) Some more ships have slipped under and the AI still keep a battle line formation. Enemy BBs are actually turning back to rejoin the fight and threatening to shoot into my broadsides. No problem I will just use my DD ....... oh! .......damn I forgot. DD to the rescue. Both cruiser and BB cant take much more of that. But the number of enemy ships has dwindled significantly. Some of my ships look like burnt matches at this point, but they are still afloat (except for the TBs which are ofc dead as can be) I have to redo my statment again. The CAs are clearly trying (and successfully at it will turn out) to disengage. Just the BBs are screwing around too much. They are kinda, kinda not disengaging, allowing me to close in and when I will shift fire form one, the other will immediately take so much damage that escape is impossible. That was a huge fight, and a lot of work but it felt defintive worthwile doing all the manual target selection and amo choices, navigation etc. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SodaBit Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 I've got some campaign feedback here, and you can probably guess what it's about. The AI's learned a new trick, and Mahan greatly approves. My CPU and RAM on the other hand, are not so enthusiastic about this. I've tried some larger encounters in custom battles, but I've never attempted something on this scale. This isn't even the largest fleet currently on the map, the Brits are operating a death-stack over in the Bay of Biscay, which I was going to try to take on originally. The game cannot handle this many ships in a single engagement. I'm not even sure how beefy of a computer you would need to keep 60 fps during this battle, NASA might have something that can pull it off? There's also the issue of the AI's fleet management during a battle this large. You probably can't see it without blowing up the image, but the top bar listing the AI's formations is just a bit cluttered. Had I played this battle out, I'd probably be hearing the sound of ships crashing into each other the entire time. I'm not sure how you can be expected to fight a battle like this, in order to have a shot at winning, you'd need at least ~48 ships, and good luck microing that many units. If you delegate some divisions to the AI, that's probably just going to slow down the game even more, not to mention the questionable tactics the AI might use with some of your ships. IMO, this issue NEEDS to be fixed before 1.06 goes live. There is no way in Hell anyone can fight fleets that large, let alone command one. The best you'd be able to do is command the main battle line and a few cruiser divisions, not an entire continent's worth of ships, and it would probably take 4 to 5 hours to complete. Side note: currently, the largest fleet on the map is 67BBs, 23BCs, 124CAs, 149CLs, and 113DD's. If anyone can put together a campaign taskforce that is capable of taking on an enemy fleet that large, I'd love to see it. If this issue isn't fixed, I'd also love to know how you managed to assemble such a force, so I can try to replicate it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lordcmdr Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 Yeah the AI doom stacking is crazy. I thought I was playing Stellaris for a minute. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeksis Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) Fleet sent home with car park hit and run scrape!!! The Meeting, note Bismarck and CL Pillau in taskforce... Victory, light damage to Pillau, nothing to any of the capital ships, virtually nil damage... But the entire taskforce sent packing (I mean teleported)... Bismarck with zero damage. Note, auto-resolve doesn't send the fleet home (don't use auto-resolve to skip time while reproducing bugs), bug occurs if player (you) fights. Edited July 3, 2022 by Skeksis 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
M3rky1 Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 40 minutes ago, Skeksis said: Fleet sent home with car park hit and run scrape!!! The Meeting, note Bismarck and CL Pillau in taskforce... Victory, light damage to Pillau, nothing to any of the capital ships, virtually nil damage... But the entire taskforce sent packing (I mean teleported)... Bismarck with zero damage. Note, auto-battle doesn't send the fleet home (don't use auto-battle to skip time while reproducing bugs), bug occurs if player fights. Happens to me too. I was Italian fighting Germany so my ships had a long trip to get to the north sea. After a battle I lost 2 crew members and pretty much no damage. My ships teleport back to port even though it took multiple turns to get there 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjg000 Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, SodaBit said: I've got some campaign feedback here, and you can probably guess what it's about. The AI's learned a new trick, and Mahan greatly approves. My CPU and RAM on the other hand, are not so enthusiastic about this. I've tried some larger encounters in custom battles, but I've never attempted something on this scale. This isn't even the largest fleet currently on the map, the Brits are operating a death-stack over in the Bay of Biscay, which I was going to try to take on originally. The game cannot handle this many ships in a single engagement. I'm not even sure how beefy of a computer you would need to keep 60 fps during this battle, NASA might have something that can pull it off? There's also the issue of the AI's fleet management during a battle this large. You probably can't see it without blowing up the image, but the top bar listing the AI's formations is just a bit cluttered. Had I played this battle out, I'd probably be hearing the sound of ships crashing into each other the entire time. I'm not sure how you can be expected to fight a battle like this, in order to have a shot at winning, you'd need at least ~48 ships, and good luck microing that many units. If you delegate some divisions to the AI, that's probably just going to slow down the game even more, not to mention the questionable tactics the AI might use with some of your ships. IMO, this issue NEEDS to be fixed before 1.06 goes live. There is no way in Hell anyone can fight fleets that large, let alone command one. The best you'd be able to do is command the main battle line and a few cruiser divisions, not an entire continent's worth of ships, and it would probably take 4 to 5 hours to complete. Side note: currently, the largest fleet on the map is 67BBs, 23BCs, 124CAs, 149CLs, and 113DD's. If anyone can put together a campaign taskforce that is capable of taking on an enemy fleet that large, I'd love to see it. If this issue isn't fixed, I'd also love to know how you managed to assemble such a force, so I can try to replicate it. Yes,I've had a few great battles like this, and being far out numbered is fine. It just shouldn't be the default and it shouldn't be so many that a half decent CPU/GPU is struggling. And I don't always want to spend 2 hours or more on every battle. I favour fast BBs because they are versatile and can usually fight enemies fast enough to catch them and out run enemies to tough to fight. I'd be more inclined to use balanced TF if the AI kept them as a TF and not just rip bits out to force these "balanced" engagements. As I mentioned earlier, what is the point of the green interdiction circle if the only thing that counts is which sea you are in, if that? No point in positioning your ships, no point in ensuring your TF are in range to interdict ships leaving or entering a port, just lumps of ships in a region. Edit: Sorry, I'm on my phone which seems a bit laggy at the moment. I had intended to quote havaduck but it still works with SodaBit's post. Edited July 3, 2022 by kjg000 Correct reply Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skeksis Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) DELETED Edited July 3, 2022 by Skeksis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o Barão Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 7 hours ago, Norbert Sattler said: So... what was this again about the AI only reacting with massive task forces to big forces of the player? I have task forces of only 2 BBs out and no port of mine holds more than 4 ships... For more context the French have a total of 6 BBs, 36 CAs, 71 CLs, 37 DDs and 64 TBs... and they sent all that after a single one of my ships. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zombie1914 Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 Latest itteration looks good and stable to me, research speed is fine too for now. Some small issues that are still a bit annoying: - Inability to use conquered ports, i think that is campaign must have - Provinces dont seem to impact GDP - VP bug is back in some very rare cases (only had it 2x in the last few days) - Win / Defeat calculation is sometimes questionable (see screenshot) How is that now a win? (time ran out btw) From my point of view the 1.06 is ready for release as soon as conquered ports are usable, rest is minor bugs and balancing issues that can wait til 1.07+. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RegamusMaximis Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 Also how does the AI's ships when they're split up around the north sea for example, all join up for a battle against one of your fleets, but that doesn't bring all your ships in that area to the battle also? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl_Bar Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 Something in the hit assignments is still broken as hell. I'm seeing endless deck hits at short ranges and also deck pens when my shells don't have remotely enough penetration to actually go through the enemies deck armour. Something has to be assigning shells to decks with the pen values inherited from the belt values. Not sure if the high deck hit rate is a symptom of that or if it's seperate. Would help immensely in troubleshooting this for you if the info scroll would include things like angle of impact. We could at least get some idea of whats going on. Right now all i cna tell you is somthing wrong is happening but not why it's wrong. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tycondero Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 I found a bug during the campaign game. I just fought two wars with France and sent fleets all the way up to the North Atlantic. However, eventhough all the fleets have been recalled after the war the game still reports that there is one CA (fleet) in the North Atlantic. I cannot see this ship/fleet anywhere and also when looking into the fleet screen there is no CA reported at sea. The main issue with this bug is that it triggers hostillity with France (loss of relations) and thus speeds up the "road to war" again. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
itolan1752 Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) There are many people talk about it. I just report what I see. the main gun which under 9" (229mm) don't fire might because secondary gun fire. When I turn the sec gun fire mode to "off", main gun finally fire. and after they finish reload.they fire immediately.even when ship is turning. EDIT: also, when main gun & sec gun aim the different ship, the sec gun won't stop main gun fire. Edited July 3, 2022 by itolan1752 add information Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr.Wednesday Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) 1.6 v22 is better IMO, but I would strongly suggest it not being a release candidate, I believe these issues should be addressed before the release: - player's fleets teleporting after Battle is a no-go a d totally breaks experience (this is very annoying) - shorter wars, with smaller fleets, less micro engagements: I think it should be rare for a war to last more than 2 years (like in the 19th century) - especially if a country suffers more than 50% casualties This should be to make the campaign pace quicker. Consider introducing a war exohstion related to unrest overtime for the AI - dependent on the government type of the nation - More player agency in Diplomacy and government (more event type to support/harm other nations at war, influencing a government to stay out of a war, make war with a country, events to boost harm technology, events to prevent/instegate unrest/revolution in other countries) - more balanced GDP to prevent AI having unlimited fleets - but helping AI to recover from wars - Increase player agency in acquiring territory by making "invasion" to territories during a war. This could be controlled by adding a "Marins" factor in addition to crew slider. This will give more depth to wars, and give more agency to the player. (Probably a 1.07 feature - or later) - ability to leave alliances after a war - more options in peace negotiation (limiting a fleet size, reparations - also probably out side of 1.06 scope, but again, the current system is very flat and should be about player agency) - ability to further speed up battles over the current limit I think that's it for now, of course 1.06 is not the final release, but since the goal was to create a continuous campaign, it should be a goal to make this feature done for 1.06 and it can't be done if after o e war - the game is basically done - and the player is exhosted by a 10 year war with everyone - this makes no sense is insane 1 and a half hour battles constantly - its a gameplay pace issue. Otherwise, really liking 1.06 v22 Edited July 3, 2022 by Mr.Wednesday 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Urst Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 1 hour ago, Mr.Wednesday said: 1.6 v22 is better IMO, but I would strongly suggest it not being a release candidate, I believe these issues should be addressed before the release: - player's fleets teleporting after Battle is a no-go a d totally breaks experience (this is very annoying) - shorter wars, with smaller fleets, less micro engagements: I think it should be rare for a war to last more than 2 years (like in the 19th century) - especially if a country suffers more than 50% casualties This should be to make the campaign pace quicker. Consider introducing a war exohstion related to unrest overtime for the AI - dependent on the government type of the nation - More player agency in Diplomacy and government (more event type to support/harm other nations at war, influencing a government to stay out of a war, make war with a country, events to boost harm technology, events to prevent/instegate unrest/revolution in other countries) - more balanced GDP to prevent AI having unlimited fleets - but helping AI to recover from wars - Increase player agency in acquiring territory by making "invasion" to territories during a war. This could be controlled by adding a "Marins" factor in addition to crew slider. This will give more depth to wars, and give more agency to the player. (Probably a 1.07 feature - or later) - ability to leave alliances after a war - more options in peace negotiation (limiting a fleet size, reparations - also probably out side of 1.06 scope, but again, the current system is very flat and should be about player agency) - ability to further speed up battles over the current limit I think that's it for now, of course 1.06 is not the final release, but since the goal was to create a continuous campaign, it should be a goal to make this feature done for 1.06 and it can't be done if after o e war - the game is basically done - and the player is exhosted by a 10 year war with everyone - this makes no sense is insane 1 and a half hour battles constantly - its a gameplay pace issue. Otherwise, really liking 1.06 v22 I disagree a bit with the diplomacy options, as you're an admiral, not the head of your government. I do think, however, that you should get technology bonuses if, say, your government says they want more battleships, then you get a time-limited bonus to researching better battleship hulls. I also think that granting increased research points for building and using certain types of ships and weapons. If I only use 7" and 4" guns on my cruisers, then I'd think we'd be focusing on improving those before everything else, so I get my Mk. II 7" or 4" guns, THEN the 2" or 8", etc. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norbert Sattler Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) I have noticed an improvement in the Austria-Hungary tech-tree, but an imperfect one. Before you would research Dread 1, Experimental Dread 1, Exp Dread 2, Dread 3, Dread 2, Dread 3. Now I got Dread 1, Exp Dread 1, Dread 2, Exp Dread 2, Dread 3... the issue with that is that the Experimental Dreadnought 2 is older and significantly smaller than Dreadnought 2. Also the Dread 3 is still researched twice, albeit now twice in a row directly after each other, with the second tech also adding bonuses for hull weight and resistence. Edited July 3, 2022 by Norbert Sattler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl_Bar Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 (edited) I can't be sure but i suspect the massive AI fleets are in large part down to it's fondness for obsolete tech. Displacement has a huge impact on cost, as do several tech options. Take a look at these 3, the first is an 1890's UK custom battle BB, the Second is a 1905 UK Custom Battle BB, and the third is a schizo tech 1917 BC from my current campaign, (it has significantly worse support techs and mostly worse guns than the 1905 custom battle one, but much better engines and base hull): If the AI is mostly using the first design it can have 4 and a bit for every one of the last design i have, so if i had 10, (i actually have 16 plus a lot of cruisers, but no BB hulls or DD's), the AI could have 45 of the first design for the same cost. You can build 1890's light cruisers that cost around a million apiece. Thats 45 CL's for one of my BC's. Edited July 3, 2022 by Carl_Bar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norbert Sattler Posted July 3, 2022 Share Posted July 3, 2022 But the AI is not only stacking obsolete ships. In my case their BBs were all dreadnoughts, not pre-dreads. And even the dreads were not all the same but were two different hulls, with the bigger ones being roughly equivalent to my own best dreads. While their guns were of lower mark, they actually had bigger guns than me too. Only in term of rangefinders I was vastly superior with tier 5 plus gen 1 radar versus their tier 1 and 2 range-finders. Their DDs were also a pretty even mix of outdated ones with 3 km torps and really modern ones with 7 trop broadsides of 6+ km range fishes, which is very respectable for the mid 1910s. I think the issue is more that GDP growth is still not balanced. Now that they ironed out the bugs that prevented the GDP from growing properly, it explodes beyond reasonable sizes. When I started my campaign as Austria-Hungary in 1890 I had about 6 bil GDP, now in 1920 I am at 272 bil. And while the AIs have not quite breached the 3 digit billions yet, they are at a point where they have more moeny than they are able to spend apparently. France has a naval budget of 750+ mil per month and reserves of 50 bil in the bank. The only reason why they don't built any more ships right now is because after I sunk dozens of ships over the last three wars and they lost even more agains the Italians, they are running low on crew. But I guess that shows that at least the AI is no longer stacking ridiculous numbers of mothballed ships in their ports anymore, since they seem to have just a couple of extra ships beyond their active fleet. Which is something I'm very glad about. A couple of patches ago the AI really ruined themselves with the over-capacity payments in their overstacked ports from uncrewed ships. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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