State of shallow PvP?

[Aegishjalmur]

I was thinking about coming back to the game and see what it's like these days but wanted to ask here about the current state of the game in shallows ( not interested in the bigger and expensive ships anymore ) first. Is there any good PvP to be had in the shallows these days and if so what is the meta like? Is it still only Hercules spam or are other ships viable too now? How is the Surprise and Renommeé?

[erelkivtuadrater]

@admin if thats your answer, then fully complete it then. Because at this point there is literally no cannon that penetrates the masts on a l'ocean with no mast mods other then the tower 42pd cannons. Please tell me the last time you saw a fleet engagement in Naval Action that ended  up with 10 ships allmost completely demasted.

And besides, im not complaining, im rather abusing the powerful 32pd cannons myself, but I would never recommend a player to go with longs vs carronades.

Edited November 26, 2019 by erelkivtuadrater

[Sea Fox]

32 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

So carronades were the prefered type of weapon used in battles in real life ? 

Which one came first carronades or cannons ? I guess carronades must be the most advanced weapon and all the ships using carronades at that time, cause they are very powerfull.

"Bring out the long nines!!!". Scratch that belay that order....."bring  out the carronades!!""

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

1 hour ago, admin said:

Our answer to complains about demasting and carronade meta in shallows is simple.

Captains who complain about carronades and demasting should read more historical references. This is how shallow pvp must look like and this is how it looks like. 

We will continue pushing historical outcomes. We do not pretend to be the only alternative, but we KNOW everything else is just 10x worse. (ass creed with rams and rockets, or multiple alleged NA killers who haters were always giving out as examples.

 

great news! does that mean full repairs and necromancy won't be possible anymore? cause of historic outcome and such.... 😁

[HachiRoku]

1 hour ago, RKY said:

there are fact and history and aside from that there is fun. The game tweaked history in many ways, but shallows are simply broken at the moment.

32's are a pain and should be limited to 12pd normal canon ship.

Maximum in shallows to be fun should be 24's or 18's.

or fix the damage balance of the carronades altogether. As we can see in this beautiful painting, neither ship uses carros. they both have normal guns. carros should not be meta and a fight shouldnt last 3 min.

cannonades were meta in real life because they are vastly superior than cannons at everything except range. As long as the combat system favors DPS over strategy people will use carros. There is a fix to the issue and would not even require a change to the damage stats. Devs love the historical game play when it suits them but when it comes to repairs, rum and suicide bombers history is irrelevant.  

[HachiRoku]

4

Edited November 26, 2019 by HachiRoku

[admin]

17 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

cannonades were meta in real life because they are vastly superior than cannons at everything except range. As long as the combat system favors DPS over strategy people will use carros. There is a fix to the issue and would not even require a change to the damage stats. Devs love the historical game play when it suits them but when it comes to repairs, rum and suicide bombers history is irrelevant.  

long guns will be good at long range after cannon rebalance. Its coming soon

[admin]

2 hours ago, AeRoTR said:

So carronades were the prefered type of weapon used in battles in real life ? 

Which one came first carronades or cannons ? I guess carronades must be the most advanced weapon and all the ships using carronades at that time, cause they are very powerfull.

Yes, carronades were considered meta by the british navy for frigates and below, Until .... 24/32lb long gun frigates became the norm. After this carronades dissapeared (and very quickly). Because the long gun by that time (due to tech improvemetns) became more accurate, stable, and deadly gun platform, carronade fitted ships suddenly started dying at distance to long guns. You can even read this in the treatise on gunnery from 1850, by 1850 designers fully understood the importance of barrel length and shell size on accuracy. 

PS There is a curious case of HMS Glatton (1790) - we want to try it based on Leopard hull as an admiralty refit.
Glatton was a 50 gun frigate beast that carried 68lb carronades on gun deck and 42lb carronades on upper deck
 

[Yar987]

2 hours ago, AeRoTR said:

So carronades were the prefered type of weapon used in battles in real life ? 

Which one came first carronades or cannons ? I guess carronades must be the most advanced weapon and all the ships using carronades at that time, cause they are very powerfull.

There is quite a bit of historical material to back up how carronades are implemented in game. I'm not saying it's the best gameplay choice (or is not), but there is a basis for how they are. 

 

"British Frigate vs French Frigate: 1793–1814"

"An Elementary Course of Instruction on Ordnance and Gunnery" Primary source!

"Constitution vs Guerriere: Frigates during the War of 1812"

 

If these prove anything, it's that the supposed inaccuracy of carronades was from contemporary gunners not knowing how to aim them correctly, and those guns were actually more accurate and had better range than cannons.

[admin]

13 minutes ago, Yar987 said:

There is quite a bit of historical material to back up how carronades are implemented in game. I'm not saying it's the best gameplay choice (or is not), but there is a basis for how they are. 

 

"British Frigate vs French Frigate: 1793–1814"

"An Elementary Course of Instruction on Ordnance and Gunnery" Primary source!

"Constitution vs Guerriere: Frigates during the War of 1812"

 

If these prove anything, it's that the supposed inaccuracy of carronades was from contemporary gunners not knowing how to aim them correctly, and those guns were actually more accurate and had better range than cannons.

feel extreme pride with my design, when the Elementary course on Ordnance and Gunnery from 1845 accurately describes what happened with shallow waters meta in Naval Action.

Naval Action is a replication of historical METAs - and we are not balancing gameplay for making basic cutters useful (we did some time ago but *** that time - we were idiots)
Sail 32 pdr carronade ships. Do not like it? Good luck

 

(we should allow use of 24 and 32 lb carrons on all light ships)

[erelkivtuadrater]

7 minutes ago, admin said:

feel extreme pride with my design, when the Elementary course on Ordnance and Gunnery from 1845 accurately describes what happened with shallow waters meta in Naval Action.

Naval Action is a replication of historical METAs - and we are not balancing gameplay for making basic cutters useful (we did some time ago but *** that time - we were idiots)
Sail 32 pdr carronade ships. Do not like it? Good luck

 

(we should allow use of 24 and 32 lb carrons on all light ships)

and that is totally ok, but to then round it up to go on topic, if you dont have a carronade ships in the shallows, you're probably gonna have a bad time

Edited November 26, 2019 by erelkivtuadrater

[Mad Dog Morgan]

2 hours ago, admin said:

Our answer to complains about demasting and carronade meta in shallows is simple.

We will continue pushing historical outcomes. We do not pretend to be the only alternative, but we KNOW everything else is just 10x worse. (ass creed with rams and rockets, or multiple alleged NA killers who haters were always giving out as examples.

 

"We will continue pushing historical outcomes."  

Then why aren't muskets modeled,  they had a very significant impact in battle that is completely absent in NA. Overwhelming musket fire especially for Rovers was the priority over cannons because six men with muskets would clear the deck of more crew than six men on a gun.

It would be near suicide for a small ship to approach a larger one under 100 yards, if muskets were introduced, stern camping would no longer be so deadly vs larger ships.

As to OP,  yes Bahamas use to be some of the best battles especially RVR however introduction of Requin, Hercules and Surprise ruined that. However there is still plenty of good battles to be had in deep water raiding in a Privateer, Prince or Snow.   

 

 

[admin]

21 minutes ago, erelkivtuadrater said:

if you dont have a carronade ships in the shallows, you're probably gonna have a bad time

I do not get this comment. If you take baseball bats to Stalingrad you are going to have a very bad, miserable, time.

Why is it even a complaint. 
Every gun has its role
We do not see people taking carronades into line battles for 55 point ports.
Carronade is a killer of soft small ships. Carronades killed piracy because they were cheap, easy to operate and maintain. 4 of them on quarter deck could stop ANY boarding attempt and just required 2-3 men to service.

32lb carronades are the best carronades. Why would you even consider taking anything else? 

check out our ad from 2016

[Mad Dog Morgan]

14 minutes ago, admin said:

Carronade is a killer of soft small ships. Carronades killed piracy because they were cheap, easy to operate and maintain. 4 of them on quarter deck could stop ANY boarding attempt and just required 2-3 men to service.

That's completely false the Golden Age of  Piracy had already died long before carronades were introduced.   There were many reasons why Piracy ended, carronades wasn't one of them. 

But yes 32lb is best because anything smaller isn't worth mounting and few ships take 42's.

Edited November 26, 2019 by Mad Dan Morgan

[Yar987]

57 minutes ago, admin said:

 

(we should allow use of 24 and 32 lb carrons on all light ships)

Yes, it seems like anything that could mount a 9lb long gun could support a 32lb carro.

[znôrt]

1 hour ago, admin said:

long guns will be good at long range after cannon rebalance. Its coming soon

i get the whole carro thing, and i even find it cool, but this should be top priority. this isn't ea anymore, if longs are ineffective you should consider this a game breaking bug.

[admin]

37 minutes ago, Mad Dan Morgan said:

That's completely false the Golden Age of  Piracy had already died long before carronades were introduced.   There were many reasons why Piracy ended, carronades wasn't one of them. 

Golden age ended long ago but piracy existed in 1830 and beyond. Last age of sail pirate execution in the states was in 1831 (for the failed attempt to steal cargo of silver). The last pirate after age of sail was hanged in 1860.
Carronade was not the only reason piracy ended, but was one of main reasons that made attacks on merchants almost a suicide as even one HEAVY carronade could destroy the whole boarding party on deck of the privateer, and any trading ship could get 2-4 carronades.

We have sources that this view is correct and will insist that you do not use the language you used. We do not call your opinion false so give me the courtesy to never do it again too. 

[erelkivtuadrater]

1 hour ago, admin said:

I do not get this comment. If you take baseball bats to Stalingrad you are going to have a very bad, miserable, time.

10 hours ago, Aegishjalmur said:

Is there any good PvP to be had in the shallows these days and if so what is the meta like? Is it still only Hercules spam or are other ships viable too now? How is the Surprise and Renommeé?

I commented it because the Thread starter wants to know the state of Shallow PvP, and i swing this thread back to on topic and said, if you're not going into the shallows with a carronade fit ship you're probably gonna have a bad time e.g. sinking all the time to other carronade ships.

Edited November 26, 2019 by erelkivtuadrater

[z4ys]

1 hour ago, admin said:

...Carronades .... just required 2-3 men to service ...

 

Will this be part of the rebalance as well?

[admin]

1 minute ago, Teutonic said:

hol' up.

you aren't going to balance the game to make things useful because historically the 32pd carro was just always better?

in order to save precious game space I guess we should start deleting item files out of the game because they were in general disuse!

CS does not delete disused guns, wot still has a MC-1, removing them would be bad design. 
We provide the whole variety that you can use. But you should use 32lb because you want the Nassau telegram to say " Teutonic has sank" not "Teutonic sank because he is stupid"

 

[admin]

14 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Will this be part of the rebalance as well?

Carronades crews are well balanced i think given current crew mechanics. Reworking crew will stir the hornet's nest 
But penetration is going to be reworked. Long guns will trump carronades at distance even for smaller vessels.

[AeRoTR]

Problem is battle instance is fast paced, and all battles are close distance ones, that makes 32 carro overpowered in this game.

I know , in real life some ships getting caught in bad position and without cannons, they knew they had no chance against cannons.

[Mad Dog Morgan]

48 minutes ago, admin said:

Carronade was not the only reason piracy ended, but was one of main reasons that made attacks on merchants almost a suicide as even one HEAVY carronade could destroy the whole boarding party on deck of the privateer, and any trading ship could get 2-4 carronades.
 

Again that's just not correct, sorry. Carroandes was never one of the main reasons Piracy was already dead before they were introduced. Yes of course Rovers still continued but not Piracy as it was during Golden Age.  And still back to original point Muskets were used to more effect to kill crew on deck which unfortunately are not in the game.

[Tom Farseer]

1 hour ago, admin said:

We do not see people taking carronades into line battles for 55 point ports.

Erm... what makes you think that?  
If Nassau weren't almost impossible to take from any defending fleet with half a brain, due to it's fort positions, I assure the vast majority of ships in that battle would be all armed with carronades, as s the case in *any* shallow water PB.
As for deep water battles, I am convinced that here as well the majority of captains arm their 1st rates with carronades on the weather deck. Once you reach a distance in line battles where carronades are no longer useless you might as well disable all decks carrying less than 24 pound long guns. (Or maybe the 18 pounders of the rarely seen 3rd rate.)

[z4ys]

11 minutes ago, admin said:

Carronades crews are well balanced i think given current crew mechanics. Reworking crew will stir the hornet's nest 
But penetration is going to be reworked. Long guns will trump carronades at distance even for smaller vessels.

That makes senses to me as long all guns are somewhat a valid choice (having 18pd cannons vs 32pd carros in mind). While during battle the fighting distance is currently for both in pen range it all comes down to dmg. Therefore I thought carronades are balanced by crew requirements. Even small crew casualty are penalised by reload speed because of high gun crew numbers.

Adjusting guns to historical values should although be applied to their crews or at least their crew a bit lowered, in my opinion.

Historical advantage was the close range punch and the crew count (easy to operate isnt really important in current crew mechanics) and this is what Carronades should be when long guns reign supreme at distance.

 

[erelkivtuadrater]

@admin since we're talking on the realistic topic, when will my marines fire muskets within 200 meters of an enemy ship instead of taking a break? And when will the sviwel guns actually sviwel?

 

7 minutes ago, z4ys said:

That makes senses to me as long all guns are somewhat a valid choice (having 18pd cannons vs 32pd carros in mind). While during battle the fighting distance is currently for both in pen range it all comes down to dmg. Therefore I thought carronades are balanced by crew requirements. Even small crew casualty are penalised by reload speed because of high gun crew numbers.

Adjusting guns to historical values should although be applied to their crews or at least their crew a bit lowered, in my opinion.

Historical advantage was the close range punch and the crew count (easy to operate isnt really important in current crew mechanics) and this is what Carronades should be when long guns reign supreme at distance.

 

Something also worth mentioning is that if you are fighting lineships or heavy frigates, the 9pd cannons are litte use because at the same distance the 32pd carronades start penning lineships the 9pd wont pen because of 90+ hull thickness. Hence why the battles we USUALLY see today talking lineships vs lineships are fought over 500m where 18's wont pen, while they were usually fought under that range

Edited November 26, 2019 by erelkivtuadrater