NPC Combat feedback

[DevsGoFluckYourselves]

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Edited July 31, 2020 by KindlyDeleteThisAccount

[Busterbloodvessel]

Perhaps leave the 'Elite NPC' for the PvE server?

Buster (slowly breaking)

 

[Dibbler (Retired)]

 I like the idea of different skill level AI ships, sorry but i do .

[Holm Hansen]

18 minutes ago, Dibbler said:

 I like the idea of different skill level AI ships, sorry but i do .

Skill or stats?
With skill I would agree ...

[Dibbler (Retired)]

3 minutes ago, Holm Hansen said:

Skill or stats?
With skill I would agree ...

 

Yes skill, like better AI captains will demast, rake, chain, repair etc.

[Petrel_]

1 hour ago, LeBoiteux said:

IMHO I think it normal to have to repair against 2 Belle Poule.

Yes your are correct i mean it was necessary to repair because otherwise they sunk me this is what i mean. For my opinion it is to strong, just try with two Belle Poule to attack one AI Agamenmon I think it will not work. 

[Holm Hansen]

13 minutes ago, Dibbler said:

 

Yes skill, like better AI captains will demast, rake, chain, repair etc.

Yes, that would be ok for me too. But I'm afraid the opening post says something different.

And the ai got a HP buff some time ago to compensate for the inability to repair. I also agreed with that. But strong shooting, as it is called here, is a completely different category.

 

Edited April 7, 2019 by Holm Hansen

[Dibbler (Retired)]

5 minutes ago, Holm Hansen said:

Yes, that would be ok for me too. But I'm afraid the opening post says something different.

 

" Elite NPCs will also come soon into the game. "

 

I'm hoping is what  Admin meant with this in OP.

[LeBoiteux]

41 minutes ago, Petrel (LIONS) said:

Yes your are correct i mean it was necessary to repair because otherwise they sunk me this is what i mean. For my opinion it is to strong, just try with two Belle Poule to attack one AI Agamenmon I think it will not work. 

2 Belle poule = 38x 2  = 76 guns  vs 1 Aga (64 guns). I for one think it normal they almost sunk you (2 bees vs a jar of honey).

41 minutes ago, Petrel (LIONS) said:

For my opinion it is to strong, just try with two Belle Poule to attack one AI Agamenmon I think it will not work. 

I bet on the 2 Belle Poule : 

• AI Aga : 64 x 18/24-pdr guns
• 2 human Belle Poule (76  x 24/32-pdr carro) being able to outmaneuver the AI and rake her.

Just my opinion 🙂

Edited April 7, 2019 by LeBoiteux

[Zlatkowar]

2 hours ago, LeBoiteux said:

On the plus side, the current PvE fights are funnier

I cannot agree with that. But anyway, I gave my opinion, I will refrain from repeating myself further.

Happy hunting to those who enjoy current state.

[Holm Hansen]

post can be deleted

Edited April 7, 2019 by Holm Hansen

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

It's kind of a tradition in gaming history to blame and ridicule AI/NPC for being stupid.

--

Not so in Naval Action. I can sincerely say we have the most sophisticated bots in gaming history (as far as I can tell), and it is reflected by very few commentators using the old coined phrase of 'stupid AI' doing this or that, hahaha...

So that is a compliment to whoever is programming bots here.

However, no ocean without a drop of salt: what I don't like, and this is not a matter of recent changes, is the perfection of stern shooting done by NPC. To name that 'laser-guided' matches their incredible accuracy. And the incredible angles they can apply to their broadsides would need an adjustment. So I agree with quite a number of people on these two points.

Strong NPC are good especially for PvE peace server, to give challenges to players. Never a battle should become boring because you know too well how NPC will behave and what their weaknesses are. Unpredictability is what keeps alive interest and caution. For that purpose I especially welcome 'different skill levels' for NPC which are not visible to players, randomly applied, and of course not depending from ship type. Would be a nice tweak if the best NPC captains would be the ones who sail purple or golden class ships so if you manage to capture those you will be rewarded for overcoming the strongest enemies, more appropriately. Like they would be the pro players on PvP server, who also tend to have premium ships.

Nerfing NPC turn rates is also a step into the right direction. I often got frustrated I could not outturn heavier ships even with turn rate boosting upgrades on mine.

[TheLoneWolf]

I take the hunt and search and destroy missions to get the chests from these missions as well as the CM to craft my ships.

I tend to do missions with 3rd rate and up.  I will either sink or capture the ai.  I do some missions with 4th rate and lower.  It seems the problems are mostly with 3rd rate and up.  I used to take 5-6 3rd rates with my one 1st rate but that is not feasible atm.

Here are my comments and suggestions for each:

Sinking:

The ai is way to accurate and will single shot you with laser accuracy.  Reduce the range and accuracy of the ai.  Also, have the ai fire broadsides instead of single shots. 

Reduce the speed of the ai.  Now the ai ships can easily catch you since they are going at absurd speeds.  This makes any attempt at pulling away to repair futile.

Ai should be affected by crew loss and sail damage.  The rate of fire does not seem to be affected by crew loss nor does the ai speed change if you shoot sails.

The ai can also fire at extreme angles which is physically not possible unless the cannons would be positioned on turrets.

Remove the ai tendency to go for fort as they always get beached and this is no fun.

Boarding:

Reduce ai speed, sail force, acceleration, turning.

I can capture an ai ship if I can board it.  Problem is the ai ships accelerates with infinite acceleration, at incredible speeds.  The problem is most pronounced when you try to turn the ai into the wind to board it.  It is next to impossible unless you literally crash into the ai ship.  I had an ai bellona push my lo wo ocean while sailing backwards to get out of irons.  Also, for some strange reason, the G key often does not work for boarding.

The other problem that needs to be addressed is crew loss.  I tend to lose between 100-200 crew in 2-3 minutes it takes to prep boarding and catch the ai as it sails into irons. This is from the ai 1st or 2nd rate firing the top decks with single shot as often I would position myself to board immediately when the battle starts.  I would notice that each shot would take between 5 and 10 crew.  Combine this with the fact that you cannot push the ai into the wind or if you do, and do not board quickly, it will simply push you back as it sails backwards disregarding physics. 

Fleets:

Add more single and 2-3 ai fleets in game, for 1st and 2nd rates 1-2 ship fleets would be great.  5, 7, 10 and 12 ai fleets are seldom attacked as if you get that sort of group together, might as well do and epic event which rewards you right after it.

I find myself and many other players for that matter, simply wait at docks for a right sized fleet while doing other tasks.  This gets mundane rather quickly.

Overall:

I find that with the current damage model removes lots of fun in the game. 

I can handle 1v1 no problem and the issues is much more with 3rd rate and up ai.

I would like to take on 2-3 1st rates with my 1st rate but this is simply impossible.  Basically, you are left to farm lower rank ai with a 1st rate.  The rate of damage combined with the damage model, ai speed etc. makes it suicidal to take on 2-3 equal rate ships. 

Also on pvp server an enemy can join your battle.  With current ai speed, the enemy simply lets the ai wear you down and has an easy kill.  The current ai speed makes it difficult if not impossible to escape the ai to focus on the player that joined.   Also, you exit quite damaged from the battle and are easy pickings.  Reducing ai speed would even the odds.

 

 

 

 

[Marquês do Bonfim]

You can always farm 2nd rates with a 1st rate, they can sink you if you're not smart enough. If you screen with them for the entire battle, your side you will get demolish in few minutes, no matter what type of wood and upgrades you have, but as a 1st rate, you will sink them rather quickly. 

I've been hunting down frigates with my L'Hermione and I gotta say, most of the times I engage single ships, never more than 1, because I know Belle Poules are almost the same status as the L'Hermione, so that makes the battle even, if I engage two, that increases me sinking even more. I engaged a fleet of 1 frigate and 1 cerberus and was able to sink both with no problem. I engaged a fleet of 1 Surprise and 1 frigate and that was a more difficult battle, I engaged a fleet of 2 Belle Poules and that were even harder, so yeah, it all depends on your skills to outmaneuver the AI, usually stern raking will demast or kill all of his crew, but makes you vulnerable to the other ship or even so, vulnerable to a full broadside of that same ship you're stern raking at the moment.

One other thing, I engaged a french LGV on my L'Hermione earlier and even tho she was faster than me (my L'Hermione is LO/WO), I was able to outmaneuver her turn rates and everytime I bluffed going hard to starboard, she would turn starboard side aswell, and I immediatly would turn hard to larboard side and she wouldn't be able to turn back because she was already half way to starboard, and I stern raked her. Kept doing this till she was low enough on crew, boarded and captured.

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

1 hour ago, TheLoneWolf said:

Now the ai ships can easily catch you since they are going at absurd speeds.  This makes any attempt at pulling away to repair futile.

Can't confirm this.

Probably you use the woods of the tankyness church, liveoak/whiteoak. Thus NPC has always lighter built ships in fir, bermuda cedar or mahogany and has to be faster.

I am using medium heavy woods and if that isn't fast enough, I suggest you use (Elite) Spanish Rig, it will bring you speed and distance to NPC when necessary.

[Aster]

Anyone who has fought the bots near land know that they will happily beach themselves so I would say they still need some work.

[jodgi]

I did a topic a long time ago where I showed how bots have much wider gun arc with their stern guns than us players. I don't think that was a very important or pressing issue but we've all seen the broadside swivels of the bots, and wider gun arc with broadsides affect PvE gameplay significantly.

This is the setup:

That ball hits right under the second gun-port from the rear. Let's look at this:

We can measure angles quite accurately even if the ship icons don't represent the full length of the hulls.

This NBrig bot gets a comfy ~37 deg gun angle.

This is my hermie:

Ok, ~22 deg gun angle, but i don't have any mods on this. Lets buy an NBrig and confirm with the 5% angle mod:

A player gets nowhere near the swivel ability the bots get.

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, jodgi said:

I did a topic a long time ago where I showed how bots have much wider gun arc with their stern guns than us players. I don't think that was a very important or pressing issue but we've all seen the broadside swivels of the bots, and wider gun arc with broadsides affect PvE gameplay significantly.

This is the setup:

That ball hits right under the second gun-port from the rear. Let's look at this:

We can measure angles quite accurately even if the ship icons don't represent the full length of the hulls.

This NBrig bot gets a comfy ~37 deg gun angle.

This is my hermie:

Ok, ~22 deg gun angle, but i don't have any mods on this. Lets buy an NBrig and confirm with the 5% angle mod:

A player gets nowhere near the swivel ability the bots get.

 

This is fake, admin has told us earlier that the ai doesent cheat 💁‍♂️

[jodgi]

23 minutes ago, Wyy said:

This is fake, admin has told us earlier that the ai doesent cheat 💁‍♂️

Awww... Don't be so grumpy, save that for Reddit. We're here to help out 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, jodgi said:

Awww... Don't be so grumpy, save that for Reddit. We're here to help out 

Only telling you what admin would say 🤷‍♂️

[DevsGoFluckYourselves]

 

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Edited July 31, 2020 by KindlyDeleteThisAccount

[Ligatorswe]

76000 reals only? For killing 8 of your own rank?! Ouch! I agree very disrespectful.

[Captain Hammered]

My own thoughts:

I just got the Rattvisan and tested it out against a 3rd Rate I tagged just N of Cap Fracais. 

Tough fight, but not seriously threatening. I was quite impressed with the 3rd's attempts to counter my weather-gauge advantage - sailing at the high-reach and trying to get me to chase him downwind. 

Frankly, I never seem to see the 'magic accuracy' of AI's fire; they can be spoofed, faked out, predicted, like any enemy. Put your stern to him and you should expect to have it nailed. If you're not slewing wildly until you're out of his gunnery arc you're asking to be hit.

The next two large ships - both solo Wasas - were quite interesting to fight, because they were bringing a particularly frustrating tactic into the fray. 

My typical approach is to attack on the beam, keeping a 45 degree angle until he fires - and now sometimes they don't. They hold their fire until I round up. Excellent! (Well, it sucks - but it's a damn good improvement on their behaviour.) On the other hand, they'll occasionally fire wildly; spreading their fire far ahead, over and past my ship with little damage.

They'll also round up into the wind, spoiling my broadside and trying to get me to fire at their bows. It's a simple counter - Depower and back the yards FAST, hold in position until he comes around, then blast him, C-turn before he can hit your broadside and nail him again - but it shows a good improvement in AI tactics. 

Overall, I'm very pleased with the changes.

Now - there ARE some issues with AI gunnery. They do have a very wide firing arc (Bloody Pavs still have 40 damn turreted blister guns a side) and apparently autoloaders but here's the thing: I'm cool with it. 

It should be bloody tough taking on a larger ship and while there is NO way I'm taking on a Bellona any time soon in my Rattvisan (at least until I've got a stockpile of spare guns for it lol) I can handle the other ships in that class with relative comfort.

I'll try out the AI's 2-ship behaviour tomorrow - I'll look for a pair of 4's or something, and come back to describe the result.

Thanks!

Edited April 8, 2019 by Captain Hammered

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

In a way some NPC cheating can be excused by our ability to repair, opposite their disability; not to repair.

I don't count the outrageous shooting angles among that, though.

[Jan van Santen]

From a PvE server PoV:

The problem is a combination of boosted ai, boosted SoL's, the current loot table and the reduced lo/wo availability

Result is fatal: No more challenge in the fight vs AI.

Don't risk a good lo/wo SoL in a challenging fight vs several ai SoL's, you wont be able to replace it.

Rather take a cheap SoL (a capped one will do, who needs crafting ?) and go sealclubbing ai frigates. No risk and the same golden chests.

Tldr: One more example of effort/reward not matching in NA.

 

Edited April 8, 2019 by Jan van Santen