Patch 16: Control, Mast and Ship strengths rebalance.

[Licinio Chiavari]

17 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

Chain is already very powerful. A Snow can take about 20% sails from an Agamemnon in 1 broadside. 
Ofcourse, it requires patience and decent aim just like demasting. 
 

"The best gunner". I'd argue that when properly balanced, demasting is more about being "the best gunner" than both chaining and hullbashing but maybe that is just me? 
Furthermore, when chaining and demasting is equally valid tactic, you still have to make "tactical decisions". 

I don't understand why everyone is so much against demasting, but loves chaining? 

 

Best gunner in a barely more realistic situation.

Again:

1. Aiming at masts is totally unreal.

2. It's a game mechanic that doesnt make the game better for majority of players.

3. It comes with a bulkload of balancing issues.

Conclusion: better get rid of it.

As said, let's try a month with demasting nerfed to nothingness

 

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

@Licinio Chiavari Aiming at masts is totally realistic, and battles often ended with ships having lost yards/ topmasts, i don't know from where you got this idea ? Single shots sniping is not, i grant you that, neither are stabilized guns.

 

Keep the low masts sections as they are now but give us the previous top masts sections values, reducing the gun stabilisation or the hitboxes sizes would have been a better solution. 

[HachiRoku]

8 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Best gunner in a barely more realistic situation.

Again:

1. Aiming at masts is totally unreal.

2. It's a game mechanic that doesnt make the game better for majority of players.

3. It comes with a bulkload of balancing issues.

Conclusion: better get rid of it.

As said, let's try a month with demasting nerfed to nothingness

 

a sailing game with no demasting is retarded man. As admin said. Brits were rewarded for firing at masts if im not mistaken. I don't want to put words in his mouth 

[Cmdr RideZ]

1 hour ago, Jon Snow lets go said:

Try to read everything the next time man

I did.  In case you want me to answer to that one as well..

Role for chains should not be that small.

[Hethwill]

13 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Conclusion: better get rid of it.

Explain to me how, how it can be done in gameplay terms, a ship crew can interfere with another ship's rigging so to make it open for boarding, as it was done in reality ?

( game has limitations and we cannot simulate reality such as throwing hooks to entangle your lines, your getting our yards entangled into each other )

[HachiRoku]

3 hours ago, admin said:

Main post updated

Hotfix deployed

Based on internal testing we have found that refits focused on changing sail plans did not have adequate bonuses to justify their use. 

Rigs that represent captain significantly changing their sail plan without increasing crew requirement

• Spanish rig and Elite spanish rig received huge buffs/debuffs to sail groups power
  • Basic version 15% bonus; -15% penalty
  • Elite version 30% bonus; -30% penalty
• Pirate rig and Elite pirate rig refits received huge buffs/debuffs to sail group powers
  • Basic version 15% bonus; -15% penalty
  • Elite version 30% bonus; -30% penalty

Extra sails that represent captains just adding sails to a specific sail group, but require more sailing crew to operating them

• Staysails and Studding sails skill books received slight buff  (debuff remained small)

Bow figure - Gazelle refit

• Crew on sails requirement lowered from 7% to 3.5%  

Aggy without pirate rig. 
11.8 Base speed

Close hauled     6.6 
Beam reach        9.1
Broad reach       11.7
Running           10.8

Aggy with pirate rig. 
11.74 Base speed

Close hauled     6.8
Beam reach        8.5
Broad reach       10.3
Running           9.2

Still a useless mod imo. 

Edited February 9, 2018 by HachiRoku

[HachiRoku]

Just now, Wraith said:

Interesting, but how did it affect your turning characteristics?

didnt pay attentention to that but it should be lower

[HachiRoku]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

Previous to the hotfix, based on my experience, I'd never burn a perm slot on any of the sail refits. In general, I wouldn't necessarily expect them to contribute big changes in speed, but if they significantly changed the turning/tacking characteristics then I'd reconsider.

well if I gained 1 knot close hauled on aggy I might but I think the mainsail nerf makes staysail mods useless. I would not make it a 1 for 1 tradeoff. With mainsail mods its ok because they make huge difference

[TommyShelby]

35 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

2. It's a game mechanic that doesnt make the game better for majority of players.

3. It comes with a bulkload of balancing issues.

As said, let's try a month with demasting nerfed to nothingness

2. How come? How does a bigger variety in tactics not make the game better? 

3. So does chaining, hull-bashing, raking, boarding, etc etc. 

In case you did not know, we did try that. For something like 2-3 months demasting wasn't possible because of extremely high Thickness values. 
It did not make the game better, it just resulted in every single battle starting out with both sides chaining the opponent. 
Many players (I will not claim it was the majority, because i don't know what the majority thinks.) found it tedious and boring because the only counter to the "chain spam" was to spam chain yourself. 
With demasting and chaining being equally viable tactics, you suddenly have a "tactical decision" to make;

Demast; 
- Does not produce any damage untill you actually take down a mast.
- Requires good aim, especially if you try to single shot.
- Requires patience. (You gotta wait for the right moment to fire your broadside). 
- Used to require that you had a rough idea of when your guns could actually penetrate the mast. (So you need to be aware of mast thickness and cannon pen values.) 

Chain;
- Produces instant damage. 
- Doesn't really require you to have good aim as the sail area is so large. 
- Even without patience, you can still do decent damage to sails. 
- Doesn't require you to really know anything, except "point and click". 

Why is it a bad thing to have 2 options on how to slow down/cripple a ship?

Noone here is arguing that demasting should be OP. From what i can tell, everyone defending demasting are defending it purely because some people want to completely remove demasting. Furthermore everyone defending demasting argue that it should be properly balanced and that Chain and Demasting should be equally viable tactics. 
 

[admin]

2 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

well if I gained 1 knot close hauled on aggy I might but I think the mainsail nerf makes staysail mods useless. I would not make it a 1 for 1 tradeoff. With mainsail mods its ok because they make huge difference

why would you fit the heavy truck for speed. fit the truck for trucking
try it with spanish
 

[Licinio Chiavari]

27 minutes ago, Baptiste Gallouédec said:

@Licinio Chiavari Aiming at masts is totally realistic, and battles often ended with ships having lost yards/ topmasts, i don't know from where you got this idea ? Single shots sniping is not, i grant you that, neither are stabilized guns.

 

Keep the low masts sections as they are now but give us the previous top masts sections values, reducing the gun stabilisation or the hitboxes sizes would have been a better solution. 

I read of history, mainly military, by 30 years. I was a navy officer, I sailed on TallShip and I am a sailing instructor. Alma Mater: Genoa University... naval enginnering.

So may be I have a clue.

Would you like chance of exploding because some hits penetrate the magazine? And granted laser guided balls, veteran players purposely aiming where magazine is with penetration/precision builds? And you dying after 3 broadsides? I suppose no.

Still also explosions happened.

I suppose not a nice add to the game.

Masts fell, sure. In 99.9% chances during prolonged battles, with serious rig/sail/stays/shrouds damage... That in NA should mean SAIL DAMAGE, usually better done with CHAIN BALLS.

Not purposely aiming 1800 guns ball loaded from a rolling deck to another full speed moving ship. Period.

It happened mast got hit, it happened, they broke,... Still making a mmo wargame about Age of sail ship a "snipe masts" game makes it unreal... And this is not something making the game better FOR MAJORITY of players.

I do agree in something unreal (like ship handling) for sake of playability.

Not something unreal making game experience worst for majority of players.

 

[admin]

33 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Aggy without pirate rig. 
1

i think the pirate rig does not affect it a lot due to its curves. those rigs work on each ship individually and every ship will get different bonus (on some it will work wonders on some it wont)

[HachiRoku]

Just now, admin said:

why would you fit the heavy truck for speed. fit the truck for trucking
try it with spanish
 

My playstyle is all about fighting for wind and not running downwind with a 15 knot ship.... I sail a 11.8 knot aggy and thats not fast but I don't see the point of increasing its running and broadreach speed and sacrificing close hauled speed. The ship with the wind dictates the battle and when to engage and disengage. An aggy will outgun and even kill a newbie in trinco but a trinco in skilled hands will always dictate the battle. Maybe not sink the aggy but avoid being sank at the least. 

[maturin]

1 hour ago, Odol said:

So in this case, LGV base 55cm + 66cm for the mast. So 121cm total on a dead on shot. 

You are about 50m away... give or take with 42lb mediums? 128cm penetration.  

So you were barely getting through the mast. 

I cant find information on the foremast thickness.. but I am sure it is closer to 45cm so you were most likely getting through it with just mediums but not sure if the damage is degraded.  

But I know it is possible to shoot through the hull and bring down a mast.  The main mast extends all the way to the keel in game. 

The LGV's thickness was definitely not 55cm when all its broadside HP were gone.

If it isn't possible in laboratory conditions like this using the heaviest guns in the game at point blank range, than it is basically irrelevant to battles.

Again, 100 ranging shots and the target was sinking before a mast came down.

 

[Vernon Merrill]

44 minutes ago, HachiRoku said:

Aggy without pirate rig. 
11.8 Base speed

Close hauled     6.6 
Beam reach        9.1
Broad reach       11.7
Running           10.8

Aggy with pirate rig. 
11.74 Base speed

Close hauled     6.8
Beam reach        8.5
Broad reach       10.3
Running           9.2

Still a useless mod imo. 

Try it with a Prince...

[HachiRoku]

Just now, Vernon Merrill said:

Try it with a Prince...

I have 2 more pirate rigs and an elite pirate. You want/

 

[Vernon Merrill]

1 minute ago, HachiRoku said:

I have 2 more pirate rigs and an elite pirate. You want/

 

Yes and I can report results. 

[HachiRoku]

5 minutes ago, rediii said:

Wrong ship then.

Take a wapen of sveno

wapen is trash close hauled too

[Licinio Chiavari]

1 hour ago, Hethwill said:

Explain to me how, how it can be done in gameplay terms, a ship crew can interfere with another ship's rigging so to make it open for boarding, as it was done in reality ?

( game has limitations and we cannot simulate reality such as throwing hooks to entangle your lines, your getting our yards entangled into each other )

Sail damage isnt sufficient?

And under 70% growing chance of a mast fall?

[Hethwill]

Is an idea. May simulate the lines getting messed, shrouds getting cut, etc.

We will resort to using chain all the time as it will always - ALWAYS - result.

 

[Licinio Chiavari]

32 minutes ago, TommyShelby said:

2. How come? How does a bigger variety in tactics not make the game better? 

3. So does chaining, hull-bashing, raking, boarding, etc etc. 

In case you did not know, we did try that. For something like 2-3 months demasting wasn't possible because of extremely high Thickness values. 
It did not make the game better, it just resulted in every single battle starting out with both sides chaining the opponent. 
Many players (I will not claim it was the majority, because i don't know what the majority thinks.) found it tedious and boring because the only counter to the "chain spam" was to spam chain yourself. 
With demasting and chaining being equally viable tactics, you suddenly have a "tactical decision" to make;

Demast; 
- Does not produce any damage untill you actually take down a mast.
- Requires good aim, especially if you try to single shot.
- Requires patience. (You gotta wait for the right moment to fire your broadside). 
- Used to require that you had a rough idea of when your guns could actually penetrate the mast. (So you need to be aware of mast thickness and cannon pen values.) 

Chain;
- Produces instant damage. 
- Doesn't really require you to have good aim as the sail area is so large. 
- Even without patience, you can still do decent damage to sails. 
- Doesn't require you to really know anything, except "point and click". 

Why is it a bad thing to have 2 options on how to slow down/cripple a ship?

Noone here is arguing that demasting should be OP. From what i can tell, everyone defending demasting are defending it purely because some people want to completely remove demasting. Furthermore everyone defending demasting argue that it should be properly balanced and that Chain and Demasting should be equally viable tactics. 
 

Demasting historically was a consequence, not aimed for.

We do not need two ways, and one still far better than other, to cripple a ship, as we have only one way to sink her: zeroing the hull.

Rebalance only sail damage... And may be starting using Battle sails? As historical?

Demasting was an event... And a growing mast failure at under 70% will be reasonable + random hits eventually. Only case in truth of aiming at masts was at musket range and almost still ships (and very calm sea).

Again... In the contrary I say "I want to be able to aim to magazine and seeing the ship exploding". As stated that too happened.

[Christendom]

Just some anecdotal experience from fighting yesterday - It was nice fighting in lineships and not having it become a demast fest.  Smaller ships were demasted by the larger ones, as it should be.  

Edited February 9, 2018 by Christendom

[Licinio Chiavari]

4 minutes ago, rediii said:

You do know that chain is very potent already if fired correctly?

A chainrake is no joke, 20% sails only due to 1 enemy mistake.

I know. Losing a mast is far more crippling... And should NEVER happen among similar sized ships at 200 mt within first 2/3 broadsides.

Back in topic...

@admin what about pine yards and false keel perms?? Total waste now with spanish/pirate refits this way.

[Licinio Chiavari]

3 minutes ago, Christendom said:

Just some anecdotal experience from fighting yesterday - It was nice fighting in lineships and not having it become a demast fest.  Smaller ships were demasted by the larger ones, as it should be.  

So it was a nice battle even without demasting? Incredible. For some looks like we should play DEMAST ACTION.

TBH even smaller ones should not purposely demasted... Being impossible... Still a step in a more balanced and enjoyable game for ALL

[Christendom]

8 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

So it was a nice battle even without demasting? Incredible. For some looks like we should play DEMAST ACTION.

TBH even smaller ones should not purposely demasted... Being impossible... Still a step in a more balanced and enjoyable game for ALL

indeed.  It was nice being able to focus on the ships, positioning, angles   etc    and basically not have half your fleet sailing around with 2/3s of their masts.