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Patch 16: Control, Mast and Ship strengths rebalance.

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I once caused (what I think was) a magazine explosion in a Bellona duel. I shot his broadside with double charge and he caught on fire. He said his sailors weren't filling survival very fast and all of a sudden...BOOM!  He exploded. I think it was maybe...15 to 30 seconds from the time I fired the broadside...certainly not the normal fire progression time to go into fireshock. Especially since he wasn't running fireship upgrade.

Then, just about 1.5 months ago, I was in a 1st rate fleet mission. My Santisima was under sustained fire by several AI...I saw my "Magazine" indicator turn yellow. No fire though. I did the emergency repair and all was well. I've had that happen twice to me.

So, while it is rare, I have seen magazine hits cause (almost) immediate explosions before, as well as cause damage to the magazine (I wonder if I hadn't had the emergency repair and caught on fire with a yellow magazine...would it have blown up?)

 

I would take up the argument on demasting again...but I've made like...half a dozen posts or more in various threads saying basically the same thing that @TommyShelby and a few others have been saying.  Demasting needs to be a viable option. You shouldn't just nerf it to oblivion (we tried that already, I didn't like it, I don't think most players liked it). You can't argue that it didn't historically happen (it did and there are plenty of reports on this).

You can argue about balance. Personally, after the thickness nerf and HP buff, I think we are on the way to getting that balance. From here on out, it shouldn't be too hard to nerf or buff mast HP in small increments to achieve a good balance. As it stands, I think most people who complain about demasting don't know just how powerful chaining can be if they actually fire good chainshot broadsides. "Good chainshot broadsides" meaning you don't just point and click and hope some chain hits the enemy: you need to roll the broadside into the sails or else single-shot it into the sails if you want to get the most damage from your chainshot broadside. In equal ships, if I get a good shot at sails, I can usually rigging shock the enemy. In equal ships, if I get good shots at masts, I can usually rigging shock the enemy. That seems pretty balanced to me :).

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29 minutes ago, blubasso said:

By the way: where usually were (Santabarbara in my language) magazines on ship, to eventually aim to it? It changes every ship class or they were more or less in the same places?

 

15 minutes ago, maturin said:

Below the waterline, closer to the stern. Large ships could have a bow magazine as well. Every in-game ship has it's own hitbox for it.

As @maturin mention they are put on the ships according to the design of the ship.  So they aren't in the same place for all ships. I do know where a few are to give higher chance of mag hits, but it's normally the fire that blows them up as very rarely if not at all do we get instant booms any more.  I think the last ship I seen blown up was a Rattler (not  heavy) that I lit on fire in a battle so yah it's bene a while since they removed the rattler from OW ships if that tells you anything.  Now fires-fireshock mag blows are a different story.

I'm honestly suprised some one hasn't came up with a link with the hit box for the ships yet for things like the mag and other internal HIT box.  Not something to be used in game per say like a mod, just pictures of the ships and the general location of things like the Mags and Pumps so you know if you want to hit the a ship you aim for a certain area of that ship.

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45 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

What you can do is stay in boarding until his crew puts the fire out, than finish him off. I done this many times when some one is trying to blow there ship up. I just rage board them and either wait until the fire out or it's burned down enough of the ship to be an instant sink than I finish him off.  Just cause you win a board should not mean you instantly put a fire out.

The ship exploded while we were in boarding mode. I was just surprised.

Its not important anymore lost is lost

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13 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

 

I'm honestly suprised some one hasn't came up with a link with the hit box for the ships yet for things like the mag and other internal HIT box.  Not something to be used in game per say like a mod, just pictures of the ships and the general location of things like the Mags and Pumps so you know if you want to hit the a ship you aim for a certain area of that ship.

Because I think almost all aiming the masts, they are a big and easy target... ;)

It will be a very good help, especially at close range, where you have best chances to hit hard the hull. I hope someone will give us the grace ( ;) ) for the hull aiming spots.

Edited by blubasso

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45 minutes ago, maturin said:

I doubt it because in the old UI you could do 100% damage to someone's magazine and nothing happened.

Snow used to blow up from a well placed (lucky) shot once upon a time.

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2 minutes ago, William Death said:

You can argue about balance. Personally, after the thickness nerf and HP buff, I think we are on the way to getting that balance. From here on out, it shouldn't be too hard to nerf or buff mast HP in small increments to achieve a good balance. As it stands, I think most people who complain about demasting don't know just how powerful chaining can be if they actually fire good chainshot broadsides. "Good chainshot broadsides" meaning you don't just point and click and hope some chain hits the enemy: you need to roll the broadside into the sails or else single-shot it into the sails if you want to get the most damage from your chainshot broadside. In equal ships, if I get a good shot at sails, I can usually rigging shock the enemy. In equal ships, if I get good shots at masts, I can usually rigging shock the enemy. That seems pretty balanced to me :).

You sure your not suppose to shoot chain into the water?  I mean doesn't it like activate some super carebear powers or something I heard?   

As much as I tease you for not running a certain perk A good proper chain at start of a battle if you got a good tag can make a battle very short when some one can't run and get distance or has to use there repairs straight off at the start of the battle.

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Looks like things goes further on while dinning :D

@Matunin

First I’m not heated. I could look like, still I’m not heated up… using my language I’d be able to show more auto-irony (aside better technical words) and clearly a smoother attitude I am, evidently, not able to do in english.

Then you pointed out some my possible errors… for example I said chain shots from French… that was obviously in adequate range… and balls at longer.

About RN, I do remember pretty well that in the first AoS and Wooden Ships and Iron Men (by Avalon Hill) British ships were forbidden using chains. I remember too I looked around some quotes and I found them… still I have to go to my parents’ home and then dig a bit. I’ll try to recover something acceptable.

I’d keep very simple about mast stability. Try to break a mast with stays/shrouds and without.

On an old racing boat, the Star, stern shrouds were called (italian) “flying”, because you had to tight the upwind stern stays and unlock the downwind one when (due to a tack or turn passing on running with the wind) wind side changed.

Well… if you badly time that manouver, without any damage to mast (obviously), on a simple fresh breeze… you’ll lose your mast. Instantly.

And I know because when I was a teenager I was with my father on one… with quite strong winds. Running with the wind, on a wave our bow entered in water… my father (damn fastly) unlocked upwind stays to avoid risking sinking in the wave… knowing, as happened, the mast will simply explode reducing wind thrust to zero and allowing bow to come out water.

Try to sail even only a pair of trousers without stays/shrouds… and you’ll break your mast.

BTW “selfstanding” masts are quite recent technology… used for example on Laser boats (build in 70ies) and in the well famed “Maltese Falcon” (an interesting futuristic 3 masted “square” rigged ship): worth, just out curiosity to see her. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maltese_Falcon_(yacht)

I do agree that cutting a mast with a decent number of holes (or a simply one adequate) will make the mast falling… still, as I pointed out in another post (I can redo trigonomy calcs) at 100mt to hit a mast more or less centrally (to avoid a ricochet - remember, a ball against a cylinder) your possible error will be under 0.3°. Nothing even close to 1800 guns possibilities… especially on a rolling ship going at full speed (meaning at full sails with fresh breeze like in game) against another moving ship.

So I do agree that masts could be hit, still a solution to simply ban purposely aiming at masts has to be in place while “spray and pray”, on the long run, could work - still probably would work a lot more and a lot faster close range chain shotting damaging so much stays that mast will simply fall.

On a second your post, you said we should talk about precision. And I do agree… As you note, still, I never said that a ball cant break a mast. I repeately said, a ball CANT BE AIMED AT THE DAMNED MAST… still IF BY CHANCE hits it, could damage it, can break it… or can make it falling ESPECIALLY if shrouds are badly damaged.

I rarely rage while gaming: I’m here to relax… nobody is happy losing, still something bearable :D

I could rage if losing a game calling for realism… due to a not realistic mechanic I will NEVER use nor I do not want to learn (I tried with demi decent results with AIs… still I’d contradict my position using it myself.

And surely I raged losing a 5v1 battle for a mix of ineptitude and bad game mechanics (infinite repairs AND mast shooting).

Anyway I’m still here… at least because I like the ancient good times… and war simulations.


 

@TommyShelby

If it’s similar (mast shotting or chain shotting) why every pro captain here ball fire to masts and never (almost) chains?

If it’s so balanced now (better than previously at least), when you fought with OneDhead (not exactly a noob… :) ) he lost all three masts mid sections in like…? 3 broadsides? 4? Distance? I was closing, not sure, still surely not a close range. Let’s say over 100mt?

And dont argue (at least with me) that he was on a Connie and you on a S.Pavel… granted Constitution masts have similar stats to SoL ones: so you could do the same to a SoL.

Then I can argue that sail firing under 50-60% is almost ineffective… so “de facto” you can reduce a ship to this level. Keeping firing at sails at that point will only hurt you: doing almost nothing. And a ship at 50% can still manouver, slowly… still she can. A ship losing 2 masts (so being around 35% sails) cant. And a ship losing all… is still and still she’ll remain.

You argued that my idea of reducing mast hitbox is wrong… because it should be big as we see the mast and should be this way right now.

I’d agree with you IF your precision would be comparable with real naval gunnery of the time… but as we know… it’s far superior. So or we badly reduce our ability to aim - with a lot of changes in game… and may be even an unplayable (and so un-enjoyable) game… or we let ourselves being super gunners aiming at hull and sails… but making next to impossible to hit masts if not by chance. And this can be reached making the hitbox smaller. Very small.

As repeately stated: I do agree to make something less real for sake of gameplay… I get angry and bloodthirsty for something unreal AND a bad mechanic - like demasting at the moment IMO.

About numbers. I would make only an example. At the moment more PVE oriented players are clearly TERRIFIED of going PVP, even in numbers. A lonely Renomee like mine bearing a name nobody could remember on leaderboard… make far bigger ships often fleeing or waiting to be at least 3 Indef+Endies before starting an (unuseful) chase.

Why? Because too many times battle ended in 3-4 broadsides… when they lost their masts. It is possible now this could be better… still you vs. OneDhead make me thinking we are well afar from solving the issue.

Last note about game mechanics and not understanding them.

FIRST: finding detailed information is a PAIN. As stated a lot of times: we need (ESPECIALLY BEING IN DEVELOPMENT) detailed and updated sheets of ship/perms/books/perks/… easily available. It’s not possible that we have to test out in game (costly sometimes) or make an inquiry at the Library of the Congress to find something.

Second… well, I think I was one of the first US players (post merge) spamming FR Rig refit + Winged out ballast (as a minimum) on all my ship I suppose to engage good demasters (so in Coast Defense duties).

Consequence: I (and others) lost 2 ups on our ships… against people who is better than us (absolutely fine); who (thanks to bulkload of PVP marks + tons of gaming hours) has an edge available ups on board (a bit less fine - still ok), and in the end has 2 more ups than us knowing medium players simply do not demast (definately less fine).

Not by chance I wrote about overgearing now damaging balance between vets and younger more casual players.

And do not argue… it’s fine. In all MMOs the gap (balance wise, not speaking of heritage cosmetic stuff) between newer and older players is rebalanced every year with new shiny stuff… that way the “pro” got the super gear today the crappiest and least playing gamer will get one year later.

On the contrary you really espect new players coming, learning a complex game… and in place of enjoying it, going farming PVE for 6+ months to be at least competitive gear wise but learning nothing almost of PVP?

Is this in your opinion a good way to get and retain new players?


 

And that said.

PEACE AND LOVE… we’ll see in the future and we’ll meet in the seas.

Regards.

 

PS: NEVER FORUM WAR WITH ME... BWHAHAHAH

PPS: no idea why I can toggle off Bold...

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30 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

@TommyShelby

If it’s similar (mast shotting or chain shotting) why every pro captain here ball fire to masts and never (almost) chains?
Well 3 things here;
As stated below, i don't think demasting is balanced properly atm. 
Furthermore, hitting a mast with ball shot takes some skill, whether you like it or not. If it did not take skill then everyone could do it, yet 90% of players i fight in OW can't do it even to a ship with no mast upgrades... (Even when they are in same ships as you and have 5 times more of that ship). 
In my experience, and personal opinion, "pro" players care very much for skill. 

And lastly, i hate chain, to me it is something that takes barely any skill while demasting takes atleast 1 skill (Aim). So even when demasting was impossible and everyone was spamming chain, i refused to use chain simply because i hate it so much. I sank several times because of that... :)

If it’s so balanced now (better than previously at least), when you fought with OneDhead (not exactly a noob… :) ) he lost all three masts mid sections in like…? 3 broadsides? 4? Distance? I was closing, not sure, still surely not a close range. Let’s say over 100mt?
I have not said that demasting was balanced now. Nor before this patch. Nor before the patch before that patch. In fact i have been asking for Mast HP Buff ever since Top Masts were made to take only 2 shots in the first place.

Then I can argue that sail firing under 50-60% is almost ineffective… so “de facto” you can reduce a ship to this level. Keeping firing at sails at that point will only hurt you: doing almost nothing. And a ship at 50% can still manouver, slowly… still she can. A ship losing 2 masts (so being around 35% sails) cant. And a ship losing all… is still and still she’ll remain.
Shooting sails with chain you can get a ship to 25-40% without much trouble. 

About numbers. I would make only an example. At the moment more PVE oriented players are clearly TERRIFIED of going PVP, even in numbers. A lonely Renomee like mine bearing a name nobody could remember on leaderboard… make far bigger ships often fleeing or waiting to be at least 3 Indef+Endies before starting an (unuseful) chase.
It always was like this mate. No matter what we have tested, the majority of players just prefer only PvP'ing when they have big numbers advantage. 
Even in Sea Trials (Arena game) people would run from the fight instead of just fighting. That is the mentality of the average gamer nowadays and we can't do shit about it. 

Why? Because too many times battle ended in 3-4 broadsides… when they lost their masts. It is possible now this could be better… still you vs. OneDhead make me thinking we are well afar from solving the issue.
See all the above.

Last note about game mechanics and not understanding them.

FIRST: finding detailed information is a PAIN. As stated a lot of times: we need (ESPECIALLY BEING IN DEVELOPMENT) detailed and updated sheets of ship/perms/books/perks/… easily available. It’s not possible that we have to test out in game (costly sometimes) or make an inquiry at the Library of the Congress to find something.
Yes it is. But that is a completely separate issue and has nothing to with whether or not demasting is balanced. 

Second… well, I think I was one of the first US players (post merge) spamming FR Rig refit + Winged out ballast (as a minimum) on all my ship I suppose to engage good demasters (so in Coast Defense duties).

Consequence: I (and others) lost 2 ups on our ships… against people who is better than us (absolutely fine); who (thanks to bulkload of PVP marks + tons of gaming hours) has an edge available ups on board (a bit less fine - still ok), and in the end has 2 more ups than us knowing medium players simply do not demast (definately less fine).
I have 1 knowledge slot on my Pavel, no fancy books, no fancy super permanent modules either. Same for my agamemnon. (Yeah, i don't really get any XP/PvP marks because i tend to let people go once it is clear to my opponent that i have won the fight.) 
But again, upgrades etc being very powerful is a separate issue. They should be nerfed to the point where they are just "nice to have" instead of "must haves". 

Not by chance I wrote about overgearing now damaging balance between vets and younger more casual players.

And do not argue… it’s fine. In all MMOs the gap (balance wise, not speaking of heritage cosmetic stuff) between newer and older players is rebalanced every year with new shiny stuff… that way the “pro” got the super gear today the crappiest and least playing gamer will get one year later.

On the contrary you really espect new players coming, learning a complex game… and in place of enjoying it, going farming PVE for 6+ months to be at least competitive gear wise but learning nothing almost of PVP?

Is this in your opinion a good way to get and retain new players?
No i do not, there is a reason why i constantly argue that modules/books/trims etc should be nerfed a ton. There is a reason why i don't attack people in smaller ships nor lower ranked players in bigger ships. And if they attack me, and i win, i let them go rather than sink them. 

I hope this answers your questions.
 

Edited by TommyShelby
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4 hours ago, AxIslander said:

The thing is we were in boarding, i was winning the boarding and after the boarding i had to fight 2 more ships. That explosion made a mess of my cunning plan. and i was left with 75 crew and catch on  fire and made boom myself. shit happens i guess :)

What about crew shock while boarding? It disables survival for some time.

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19 minutes ago, Banished Privateer said:

What about crew shock while boarding? It disables survival for some time.

yeah! maybe that was it.

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13 hours ago, William Death said:

I once caused (what I think was) a magazine explosion in a Bellona duel. I shot his broadside with double charge and he caught on fire. He said his sailors weren't filling survival very fast and all of a sudden...BOOM!  He exploded. I think it was maybe...15 to 30 seconds from the time I fired the broadside...certainly not the normal fire progression time to go into fireshock. Especially since he wasn't running fireship upgrade.

Then, just about 1.5 months ago, I was in a 1st rate fleet mission. My Santisima was under sustained fire by several AI...I saw my "Magazine" indicator turn yellow. No fire though. I did the emergency repair and all was well. I've had that happen twice to me.

So, while it is rare, I have seen magazine hits cause (almost) immediate explosions before, as well as cause damage to the magazine (I wonder if I hadn't had the emergency repair and caught on fire with a yellow magazine...would it have blown up?

Since 1 or 2 patches ago I've seen sinking ships (no armor or structure left) explode when ppl continue to shoot at them. My guess is this is because now thickness decreases with lost armor hp, so basically every shot penetrates and it's much more likely to hit the magazine.

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34 minutes ago, Knobby said:

Since 1 or 2 patches ago I've seen sinking ships (no armor or structure left) explode when ppl continue to shoot at them. My guess is this is because now thickness decreases with lost armor hp, so basically every shot penetrates and it's much more likely to hit the magazine.

Shooting at the burning ship spreads fire faster. Balls roll and spread more sparkles around.
If fire spreads faster it can reach magazine faster

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Just get rid of CONTROL all together. If I want to keep an enemy in a fight then I need to keep him tagged. Once he is able to maneuver out of range of my guns or if I cant hit him due to my poor gunnery skills he deserves to escape.

The current escape two minute escape timers cool down works fine for keeping enemy in battle if a player can shoot worth a damn.

We don't need what amounts to a Star Wars Tractor Beam or Interdictor Gravity Field Generator on 1800s sailing ships.

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18 hours ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Again... 

<< in hopes of knocking away an important spar >>. All said.

About my erroneous statement, please clarify how is damn possible to aim (having a real chance of hitting, aside 'spray and pray') with a 1800 gun to a mast of a full speed running ship at overdose 100 mt from a rolling deck of another full speed running ship.

My statement about demasting (consequence and aimed for) was said to underline the utter impossibility to AIM AT MASTS AT COMBAT RANGE.

So the good ol'french fleet aimed chain shots (RN almost not using) AT RIGS (and not at masts - again impossible) to slowly cripple... And a mast falling was a consequence of stays/shrouds damage.

And we should discuss about who is born first: was rig shooting the tactic and so the downwind positioning (to aim guns higher) the consequence, or the choosen tactic was staying downwind (to be able to disengage), and shooting at rigs (due to ship heel) was the consequence?

If you're not intellectually honest while reading and replying, we have an issue.

 

Well the French engaged at ~700-750m using point en blanc fire. That is the aiming using line of metal directly at the point you want to hit.
British reports suggest that they failed to adjust aim adequately on closing so fires drifted higher than the aim point when engaging the hull at closer ranges. They were often in single ship actions attempting to complete their strategic mission, while disengaging from RN ships. They failed fairly frequently.

The British fired using quarter sights or levelled ordnance and encouraged practice at shorter ranges. (There is a table of aim points in Douglas)

The idea that firing was only done inside 100mt against spars and rigging is a made up thing.

The issue in game is the pointability of ordnance and its stabilisation relative to the horizon. If the ships had correct pitch, heave, surge, roll and yaw, and the ordnance was 'rigidly' set to the deck with limited, slow and imprecise adjustment of aim. Also a high degree of responsiveness in ship handling (control lag instant to seconds, rather than tens of seconds to minutes), and the rather rapid rates of fire (and sustainability of maximum rates indefinitely).

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35 minutes ago, Dauntless7_Original said:

Just get rid of CONTROL all together. If I want to keep an enemy in a fight then I need to keep him tagged. Once he is able to maneuver out of range of my guns or if I cant hit him due to my poor gunnery skills he deserves to escape.

The current escape two minute escape timers cool down works fine for keeping enemy in battle if a player can shoot worth a damn.

We don't need what amounts to a Star Wars Tractor Beam or Interdictor Gravity Field Generator on 1800s sailing ships.

So in real combat, on a faster ship, I have to fire to enemy (something having to change heading in a, chase-wise, stupid way) or he will disappear... And not simply closing in and starting firing when I am confortably close?

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1 hour ago, Dauntless7_Original said:

We don't need what amounts to a Star Wars Tractor Beam or Interdictor Gravity Field Generator on 1800s sailing ships.

That is so exquisitely stupid, it is practically beyond my powers of articulation to explain why.

So Star Wars hyperdrive = good.

But Star Wars tractor beam = bad?

Was is it about videogames that strips people of all common sense?

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3 hours ago, Dauntless7_Original said:

Just get rid of CONTROL all together. If I want to keep an enemy in a fight then I need to keep him tagged. Once he is able to maneuver out of range of my guns or if I cant hit him due to my poor gunnery skills he deserves to escape.

The current escape two minute escape timers cool down works fine for keeping enemy in battle if a player can shoot worth a damn.

We don't need what amounts to a Star Wars Tractor Beam or Interdictor Gravity Field Generator on 1800s sailing ships.

The Control perk is just another way to help those inferior Captains who can't shoot or don't know how to maneuver to stay in contact with an enemy ship.   If you can't handle your ship to sink or capture an enemy then they deserve to get away...there should be balance not an advantage for those weak Captains when they attack.

 

Edited by CaptainCaveMan

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And use only ships that can mount bow chasers... basically reduce ship models count in game by... 60% :D 

... right...

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any feedback on Spanish/ Pirate rig buffs?

Or everyone is happy and enjoying?

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  • Sail Force. It's a cancer  paradox of PvP chase, as you're faster than the enemy in OW, but slower in battle. It creates a never-ending circle that you tag someone in OW, but he gets away in battle. Repeat X times until someone gets bored or dies or luckily gets away.

More empirical feedback and tests:

My Bellona with max port speed 11.6 knots goes in battle 14.3 knots.

unknown.png

 

Making Pirate and Spanish Refits 30% won't make things better. Some ships don't care about main/jib sail force so exchange 30% for 30% is not fair and equal. To be honest, ships with most main sail even get extra speed upwind because of huge 30% bonus to their strong mainsails and negligible jib force malus for their weak jibs. In OW these ships are slow anyway.

Historical/Realism Feedback:

Sync force bonus to OW or remove the malus/negatives of using it in combat or make it something we can activate in combat. In reality, all ships could expand the sails (studding sails or put bigger jibs/staysails) and hide them at will, so malus makes no sense. Make it like 7% bonus, no negatives (maybe more sailing crew)

Edited by Banished Privateer
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I really don't like not knowing what my battle speed is actually going to be. I need to test each ship individually with added main sails to see how fast I actually go. 

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1 hour ago, admin said:

any feedback on Spanish/ Pirate rig buffs?

Or everyone is happy and enjoying?

Your going to make me use my one Elite Spanish aren't you?  lol

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2 hours ago, admin said:

any feedback on Spanish/ Pirate rig buffs?

Or everyone is happy and enjoying?

I like the Elite Spanish Rig Refit.

You can't stack it with Bovenwinds or other sorts of rig refits, meaning I can't stack it with french rig. This seems like a good way to keep some balance around it: I can be very fast downwind but my masts aren't as strong (I'm spreading extra sails so my masts take more strain). It does add a LOT of downwind speed, but for the things you give up, I think it will balance alright. It definitely hurts when going close hauled.

I haven't tried Elite Pirate Rig or Pirate Rig Refit yet. I've got several of each but I've not yet decided which ship to put them on. Endymion with upwind buffs might be good, but then losing all that square sail bonus may make it too slow downwind. In previous testing of sail force bonuses, I noticed a point where adding more staysail force and subtracting square sail force begins to just make you slower all around. Maybe that has changed recently though. L'Hermione would be very interesting to test with upwind speed buffs, but if it doesn't work out, the ship would still be useless, so I'm hesitant to put one of my refits on it. L'Hermione really does need some buffs before it can really become a competitive 5th rate. I'm thinking of testing a Surprise with pirate rig or elite pirate rig...that could be a very good setup for raiding.

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