Are ranging shots realistic ?

[Destraex]

From another forum:

 

"Still, even Naval Action has elements that make me feel disappointed. They have a gunnery system that means you fire ranging shots unitl one starts to hit, and only then do you fire a broadside. That is weird and shouldn't be the way the game works."

 

My response:

I agree about the ranging shots but also wonder if this is the way it was done at least in chases. Most people only use ranging at very long ranges once they get used to judging shot. Currently the AI does not use ranging at all because it "just know"... evil AI!
However I think of ranging shots just like the captain walking along the side and firing each gun in turn until he gets it right. This would have happened with gun section commanders I imagine anyway at least to begin with or at long range. We certainly do know that they did aim the cannon individually. Something you cannot do with as the captian in this game unless you use ranging shots. Ranging shots were also not completely unknown. The british did it at trafalgar as a way to warm up the guns.
I thus think it is a gameplay element which makes sense and certainly could have happened.
Some people in game are firing their entire broadside individually with the ranging shot button.
Ranging shots are simply single shots in game. This basically means the shots get fired one at a time from bow to stern.

This is entirely possible..... and if you want to be strictly realistic just fire the broadside right away.

[Destraex]

Also I am just reading that the british could aim because of the equipment they were using where the french could not aim as well because they had to stand away. Will get the quote up here a bit later.

[maturin]

Ranging shots in the broadside of a large ship are not realistic. But who cares? It's good feature that prevents the gameplay from being frustrating or even less realistic due to magical aids and sniper cannon.

 

 

A good gunner knows that at a certain (estimated) range, you have to aim at the maintopmast cap. In a smaller vessel, a gun captain could indeed fire a ranging shot, and then advise the gun captains near him what point to align the barrel at. Of course, on a large vessel in the heat of combat this becomes impossible.

[Flip]

Ranging shots is a good feature. Keep it.

[ThePfeil]

The ranging shots could be limited to 1 per deck before you'd have to unleash the whole broadside, though. That would prevent people from utilizing "rolling broadsides", continuously re-ranging their shots. Just an idea that came to mind.

[Johny Reb]

whats wrong with rolling broadsides? I love this technique in the brig. You could just keep firing your cannon without pause one at a time

[maturin]

Rolling broadside are completely necessary for raking fire.

[ThePfeil]

Nothing wrong with rolling broadsides. I do use them myself. Was just trying to give an alternative to the discussed "unrealistic" availability of ranging shots.

[Crankey]

I'm not sure where the original quote comes from, but historically no sane captain would fire his broadside at range without at least a couple of ranging shots, as such i think the game brings in a very accurate and usable system for judging your broadside accuracy.

 

I'm not sure you would walk the entire length of each gundeck on Victory firing single 'space bar' shots for the entire ships sides, but certainly in smaller ships/vessels firing individually would be possible, and having a gun captain or other officer aiming each shot was not unheard of, but on ships with multiple decks, each would have its own gun captain or even multiple gun captains per deck.

 

I have posted elswehere my thoughts on dispersion for when that broadside arrives on target.

[Destraex]

crankey you got a source for ranging shots being realistic?

Constitution:
With the range closing again, “fired on the chase from the first gun 1st division and the chase gun on the forecastle…” The range was too great

[admin]

From another forum:

 

"Still, even Naval Action has elements that make me feel disappointed. They have a gunnery system that means you fire ranging shots unitl one starts to hit, and only then do you fire a broadside. That is weird and shouldn't be the way the game works."

 

 

 

Users of that forums are provided with the opportunity to fire full broadside without single using shots. I would love to have them as enemies more often

Also they are trapped in the realism tunnel and start to contradict themselves - they went into that tunnel so far that now they are trying to implement limits that did not exist in real life. Captain could fire a single cannon. They want to take it away. Those forum users also forget that broadside is actually a collection of single cannon shots fired together. Ship is not a shotgun.

 

Also realism is the main limit of human imagination

[Ink]

Check this

from "A Treatise on Naval Gunnery" by Howard Douglas:

367. When a vessel heels much, or there is any motion, the concentrated fire of a ship's batteries must be given simultaneously in broadsides, or by divisions,* either of which methods is objectionable, and should be avoided as much as possible. Firing by volleys, in the naval service in particular, is extremely objectionable, and is rarely as efficacious as the independent and deliberate firing of one or two well-directed and well-served guns. Perhaps, as stated in Colonel Stevens's interesting pamphlet,b it may be doubted whether the somewhat complicated system of concentration may not be carried too far, and 'whether it is likely to prove as efficient as the independent and quick firing of guns conducted in the ordinary manner. The moral, as well as the mate rial, effect would probably be greater if the same num ber of guns were fired independently, according to the skill and judgment of well-trained captains of guns, who, each seizing the favourable moment, might spread destruction throughout the enemy's ship.

 

I think we can imagine it as tracking shot

 

and also this

397. Whether pursuing or pursued, the only chance of stopping an enemy is by bringing down some of his rifrjring ; it is therefore most important to consider the best mode of effecting this. The random aim of a whole broadside battery will be much less likely to accomplish it than the cool and careful use of one well served gun. Hauling-up, or bearing away, to rake a flying, or a pursuing enemy, always produces a very random volley ; for as the change of course must occasion much loss of distance, it is necessary to perform it so quickly that the effect is seldom good, the distance, or range, altering very much before the vessel conies to a position proper for opening her broadside fire. This alteration of position brings with it a great and un known alteration in the ship's inclination ; consequently a considerable change in the elevation at which the ordnance may have been laid, and which there is not time to correct. It is almost incredible, indeed, how little effect is produced by this sort of raking fire ; and the observation requires therefore to be supported by facts. In a certain action, a 74-gun ship bore up across the stern of an 84, to rake her, at a cable's length dis tance, in moderate weather and smooth water. The 74 had been upon a wind, and not having, perhaps, allowed for the alteration of elevation that would take place after bearing up, not one shot took effect ! A proof of what may be effected against the personnel of a ship by yawing, and giving a close raking fire of well-directed grape, was gallantly shown by the " Inconstant," commanded by the late Admiral (then Captain) Freemantle, who, keeping in the wake of a line-of-battle ship, gave a raking fire of grape with tremendous effect upon her people, who were very much exposed in striving to clear the wreck of her topmasts, which had been carried away by an overpress of sail.

[Hetman]

There is also "fire at will" and that is what ranging shot mechanics can mimick...

[maturin]

Ink, all your second quote is saying is that a bow chaser is more accurate and useful than yawing the ship to bring a whole broadside to bear. Which sort of proves the point that tracking shots are useful for finding the range of a single gun, and informing a single gunner, but can't really be used to improve the results of an entire broadside.

 

But again, it's a good feature that has at least some basis in real practice. It just treats the ship as a hivemind, something that is very common in videogame abstractions.

 

Complaining about ranging shots is very silly when the guns all have 22-nd century-quality hydraulic servos and stabilization mechanisms.

[akd]

Rolling broadside are completely necessary for raking fire.

Yet our current broadsides are probably much more reflective of the number of shots that would actually strike the target. Given increased damage and "weak" stern hull, do we really want every shot in a broadside going into the stern? It seems to me that even with a reduced number of shots hitting, we still get much larger numbers of crew killed, which should be the primary advantage of a raking broadside.

[BungeeLemming]

In the storm events I found myself using spacebar a lot more often than full broadsides since the waves can F**k off your aim horribly. I disable all but one battery and use the range shots to get effective fire into my enemy.

 

I hit about 80% of my shots. If firing the whole broadside Ill get about 30% of hits a MOST because the broadside is at such a long timing that only the first few can hit home.

 

Ranging shots are nessesary. Its not a removable feature.

As devs stated we are playing/testing a game, not a simulation.

And as a game mechanic its simply genious!

[Destraex]

If you disable a battery do the men help man the other decks?

[BungeeLemming]

nope

[Mirones]

many cooks ruin the soup. why would you need on a gun wich is manned by 5 people and incease the number further where each would get int eh way of the others.

[maturin]

A 32 pounder has a crew of 10, btw.

It is a big pot of soup.

[BlouBulle]

Ranging shots were sometimes used, but real life tactics of raking fire at point blank ranges or both ships broadsiding it out are far more fun and real life like. While cannons could fire at up to about 1KM (3000+ feet) they rarely ever hit another ship, maybe a big fort but not a ship.

 

I haven't played yet but all the good players seem to close the gap and tail rake and ranging is hardly required... I think that the guns could be a bit more inaccurate (making ranging slightly less effective as your ranger could hit but could be out).

[thomas aagaard]

Last spring an original 30pound smooth bore from the danish frigate "Jylland" was tested... first short went high and an artillery radar followed the ball until it hit the ground some 2200m away.

(we are talking a gun used in 1864, but still a smoothbore firing original solid roundshots of cast iron)

[Destraex]

larger cannon have 15 or 16 iirc as well

[Destraex]

15 men for a 36 pdr
14 men for a 32 pdr
11 or 13 for a 24 pdr
13 for an 18pdr
9 for a 12 pdr
9 for an 8pdr
5 crew for 6 and 4 pdrs

[BlouBulle]

With what accuracy Thomas, it's a known fact that 1st raters could hardly damage each other at past 800-1000 yards, mainly because it was like hitting an ant 5 meters away with a pin.

 

Even in WW2 smaller ships hardly got hit at over 1KM and it took many shots to hit a well aimed shot at weak armour (yes line ships don't have the armour but are far less accurate)... this is farther proven by tank ranges of that time, and even a 50mm tank shell in WW2 had better penetration then a high caliber black powder weapon...

 

 

I'm not saying they can't hit, but I think cannonballs should spin off and lose accuracy past 600FT.