Indefatigable

[Captain Lust]

Why would i want to use a Indefatigable in pvp over a Constitution at the same BR ? Was it only added to the game to grind pve?

[Prater]

Why use a Renomee vs a Surprise?  Or an Essex vs a Trinc?  Or a Snow vs a Navy Brig?  Or a Cerb vs a Niagara?  3rd rate vs Bellona?  Pavel vs Buccentuar?  Ocean vs Victory?  The Coni is a modern warship, the Indy is not.  The Coni was built to have similar specs to a razee 74, the Indy is a Razee 64 (Agamemnon).

[Captain Lust]

2 minutes ago, Prater said:

Why use a Renomee vs a Surprise?  Or an Essex vs a Trinc?  Or a Snow vs a Navy Brig?  Or a Cerb vs a Niagara?  3rd rate vs Bellona?  Pavel vs Buccentuar?  Ocean vs Victory?

So you're basically agreeing? That's exactly what im thinking... 

[Prater]

Well, I've pvped with an Indy, but only with a group.  I wouldn't do it solo.  I wouldn't solo pvp in a Coni either, because I know of a lot of good pvpers who have lost their expensive decked out conis solo.  But that was when revenge fleets were an issue.

[Captain Lust]

Just now, Prater said:

Well, I've pvped with an Indy, but only with a group.

My question was rather... why did they add it when we have constitution already? It seems very similar to it, yet constitution seems to do everything better... i wondered if Indef had any other perks than being able to load 42pd carronades on main deck, because if not it seems like a pointless addition to the game when we could have other ships with unique features instead...

[Prater]

14 minutes ago, Captain Lust said:

My question was rather... why did they add it when we have constitution already? It seems very similar to it, yet constitution seems to do everything better... i wondered if Indef had any other perks than being able to load 42pd carronades on main deck, because if not it seems like a pointless addition to the game when we could have other ships with unique features instead...

The Indy is a famous British ship, and looks amazing.  Why add the Ingermandland when we had better ships than it already?  The more ships the better in my opinion.  Just like many of the other ships being developed.  The Christian VII isn't the most modern 2nd rate, but we are getting it anyway.  I can't remember if we are getting the Swedish 60 gun Wasa 1778 or not, but it won't quite be able to take on the Agamemnon by the looks of it (if we are getting it).  You are probably right, more unique ships could be made, but the Indy is basically to the British what the Constitution is to the Americans.  It's a Surprise, or Santisima, or Victory, or Constitution, or Niagara, or Ocean, or Buccentuar.  It's a famous ship.

Also, the Indy was decided upon by player poll.  Same with Christian VII and others.

Edited August 4, 2017 by Prater

[Barbancourt]

Yes, the more ships the better.  I wish we had more ships in different classes and for different nations, so I won't complain about any that we do have.  The point isn't to min/max and meta your way to OP uberness.  Enjoy all the ships, flaws and all.   

 

[William Death]

Indefatigable is one of my favorite ships. Properly handled, it should destroy the average Constitution 1v1 (I've done it) IMO. Indefatigable has a tumblehome (sloped sides) to bounce shots, thick armor, and good HP. Her speed, mast thickness, sail HP, and tacking qualities are not too horrible either. Not to mention, with double decks of carronades, it throws more broadside than the Constitution can. I would say that the Indefatigable could do with a buff to turn rate (a slight buff), and *maybe* a small buff to the upwind sailing profile, but otherwise, it is pretty balanced. 

Before the speed nerf, I had one doing 15 knots and it was an absolute beast. Now, that ship will only do around 14 knots IIRC, but it still makes a good support ship.

 

For full disclosure, I do not like our in-game Constitution at all due to her lack of hull shape. The one we have has flat sides, with almost no curvature in any plane. That makes for a ship that cannot bounce shots as I expect my ships to do. Furthermore, if I were to consider sailing the Constitution, it would be a hard sell for me, considering that the Bellona has a much nicer broadside and very similar handling qualities. I know some people I sail with swear by the Constitution, but until it gets a new hull model, you won't likely see me sailing one.

[CaptVonGunn]

39 minutes ago, Captain Lust said:

Why would i want to use a Indefatigable in pvp over a Constitution at the same BR ? Was it only added to the game to grind pve?

  Well it is a class smaller so you can use it earlier then a Connie... I just built one last night to test something.. got over 12.02 knots if I remember right

with Long Guns and repairs Ballast and Bow figure... almost 5700 sides... so not a bad ship really...  oh Teak/White Oak.... so decent grinder to.. 

[CaptVonGunn]

1 minute ago, Willis PVP2 said:

 

For full disclosure, I do not like our in-game Constitution at all due to her lack of hull shape. The one we have has flat sides, with almost no curvature in any plane. That makes for a ship that cannot bounce shots as I expect my ships to do. Furthermore, if I were to consider sailing the Constitution, it would be a hard sell for me, considering that the Bellona has a much nicer broadside and very similar handling qualities. I know some people I sail with swear by the Constitution, but until it gets a new hull model, you won't likely see me sailing one.

  Or the fact she is far to SLOW in her proper build....All info has her as a 13 knot ship and she was Live Oak/White Oak with Copper that is never happening in the current design in game

[William Death]

Just now, CaptVonGunn said:

Or the fact she is far to SLOW in her proper build....All info has her as a 13 knot ship and she was Live Oak/White Oak with Copper that is never happening in the current design in game

Yeah but the real life speed is something a bit tricky in game. This is because we have the silly wood types significantly affecting the speed of the ships; when, in reality, the ship design and quality of construction along with ballasting (which makes up for any weight savings from the wood types) and proper rigging and maintenance of the ship had more to do with a ship's top speed than anything else related to the ship construction.

Lets look at an example: IRL, Endymion was known for doing 15 knots downwind and 11 knots upwind (not close hauled mind you, but upwind nonetheless). She certainly does not do that in game. I've said it before, Indefatigable, Endymion, and Constitution would be three of the most OP ships in game if they gave them stats close to real life figures.

 

As a side note, pre-wipe, I did have a LO Speed Pirate Refit Connie doing 13.8 with Copper and Studdingsails. That was pretty cool.

[CaptVonGunn]

1 hour ago, Willis PVP2 said:

Yeah but the real life speed is something a bit tricky in game. This is because we have the silly wood types significantly affecting the speed of the ships; when, in reality, the ship design and quality of construction along with ballasting (which makes up for any weight savings from the wood types) and proper rigging and maintenance of the ship had more to do with a ship's top speed than anything else related to the ship construction.

Lets look at an example: IRL, Endymion was known for doing 15 knots downwind and 11 knots upwind (not close hauled mind you, but upwind nonetheless). She certainly does not do that in game. I've said it before, Indefatigable, Endymion, and Constitution would be three of the most OP ships in game if they gave them stats close to real life figures.

 

As a side note, pre-wipe, I did have a LO Speed Pirate Refit Connie doing 13.8 with Copper and Studdingsails. That was pretty cool.

  Which is why I have asked several times for the ship data to be based on original build with standard gun load and full cargo or provisions and ammo... That is the Base speed. Any changes to that design would then effect the ships speed SLIGHTLY... not the insane changes we see now for a couple tons of cargo. the speed loss or increases we get now per ton should be more like for every 25 tons....

[OneEyedSnake]

indy also takes a better hit than the connie in my experience, and you can put full carros on her

 

[Captain Lust]

1 hour ago, OneEyedSnake said:

and you can put full carros on her

Yeah, but would i really use full carro loadout for pvp? Maybe for a support ship but even then... would i?

[William Death]

15 minutes ago, Captain Lust said:

Yeah, but would i really use full carro loadout for pvp? Maybe for a support ship but even then... would i?

Hehehehehe...

Yeah full carronades in PvP is a bold move, but sometimes it pays off... I know I've enjoyed the massive broadside you can get out of that little ship with the carronade loadout. Personally I prefer to run her with longs/carronades (long 24/42pd carronade) for the ability to demast other ships, but thats just my opinion. She is a good combat ship with any of her loadouts.

[Hethwill]

She can be a better option as a flag ship of a squadron that the Constitution in a slug out prolonged battle. She will take the punishment and endure it and respond in kind. It is not tailored, in my opinion, to act alone, this is a given.

[Guest]

Bouncing shots, full carro loadout (arguable whether it's good or not, consti looks like it has lower poundage solely because it is forced to mix longs and carros for a comparison), looks.

For pretty much everything else, consti wins out. Personally I really disliked the crew count on the Indy, even at full crew it's not that great.

[Captain Lust]

2 hours ago, Otto Kohl said:

Indefatigable is sluggish and turns like a brick. Its easy target even for a surprise.

 

1 hour ago, Aegir said:

Bouncing shots, full carro loadout (arguable whether it's good or not, consti looks like it has lower poundage solely because it is forced to mix longs and carros for a comparison), looks.

For pretty much everything else, consti wins out. Personally I really disliked the crew count on the Indy, even at full crew it's not that great.

Kind of my observation / opinion aswell...

[Corona Lisa]

42 pd carros on both decks means more dps close range than a connie.

 

low crew is the biggest problem for the indy in comparison with the connie imo

[Hodo]

18 hours ago, Prater said:

Why use a Renomee vs a Surprise?  Or an Essex vs a Trinc?  Or a Snow vs a Navy Brig?  Or a Cerb vs a Niagara?  3rd rate vs Bellona?  Pavel vs Buccentuar?  Ocean vs Victory?  The Coni is a modern warship, the Indy is not.  The Coni was built to have similar specs to a razee 74, the Indy is a Razee 64 (Agamemnon).

Some of these are valid questions.  

Reno vs Surp.. well the Reno has WAY better armor and can deflect shots better and is generally faster.  But the Surprise has more firepower and just brute force.  

Essex vs Leda, the Leda is just OP vs the Essex after this last patch. 

Snow is a paper cannon, but again after its buff patch it is WAY better than the brig or navy brig.

And the 3rd rate is a joke compared to the Ballona.  

The Constitution is a heavy frigate, the Indefatigable was a razee 64, not really a frigate.   But cost wise is the biggest difference.  The Indefatigable was cheaper than the Constitution.  

[Malachy]

The constitution is superior in every way to the inde. And anyone who says the Connie can't bounce shots needs to spend more time in her. She's one of 4 ships that bounces shots like a pro. You have to angle her properly before you take fire but she bounces shots extremely well. Any good thing requires effort. Too many people who play this game expect everything to be handed to them on a silver platter. 

 

The indefatigables  niche is the fact shes a 5th rate and requires less crew for 2/3 of the connies firepower. She's not supposed to be in the same class as a Connie. Used properly she can be deadly, but don't expect to Be able to beat a fast turning ship with her like you can in a Connie. A cut down 64 is still a cut down 64.

Edited August 5, 2017 by Malachy

[Vernon Merrill]

Welllllllll....  I'll be the one to say it, I suppose.  If the Connie was modeled accurately and given the stats that she SHOULD have, given her real-life build (knees a bit bigger than a 3rd rate/ZERO spacing between ribs), she would be an absolute beast.  Couple that with historically confirmed 13-knot capability and you can see why she's forced to be nerfed by the devs.

For the record, I'm ok with it, as its just a game.  But when you think that, in game anyways, a Ingermanland can duel with a Connie, you know its game mechanics.  In real life, the Connie would have used her as target practice as they sailed circles around her and laughed at her antiquated cannons and rigging from 100 years earlier.  It would be a lot like a WWII era destroyer fighting an iron-clad.

 

On a more important note, I cannot stop looking at Cat. Lust's profile pic....

Edited August 5, 2017 by Vernon Merrill

[Odol]

On 8/5/2017 at 5:01 PM, Vernon Merrill said:

Welllllllll....  I'll be the one to say it, I suppose.  If the Connie was modeled accurately and given the stats that she SHOULD have, given her real-life build (knees a bit bigger than a 3rd rate/ZERO spacing between ribs), she would be an absolute beast.  Couple that with historically confirmed 13-knot capability and you can see why she's forced to be nerfed by the devs.

For the record, I'm ok with it, as its just a game.  But when you think that, in game anyways, a Ingermanland can duel with a Connie, you know its game mechanics.  In real life, the Connie would have used her as target practice as they sailed circles around her and laughed at her antiquated cannons and rigging from 100 years earlier.  It would be a lot like a WWII era destroyer fighting an iron-clad.

 

On a more important note, I cannot stop looking at Cat. Lust's profile pic....

She was nerfed because she wasnt... Russian.  Just saying.