+60 KNOTS! invisibility super power

[Prater]

10 minutes ago, Skully said:

 

If you sail into enemy territory unsupported, you get what is coming to you: overwhelming enemy forces. Can't get more realistic than that.

Except the ability to use coms to converge on a point and to sail 300 km in a few minutes is not.

[Skully]

Just now, Prater said:

Except the ability to use coms to converge on a point and to sail 300 km in a few minutes is not.

Very true, but those are equal benefits to all sides.

[Prater]

3 minutes ago, Skully said:

Very true, but those are equal benefits to all sides.

And the fact that battle time is different than OW time is another major player.  There is no realism with revenge fleets, at all.  There isn't a single case of an entire fleet forming up around a battle after having traveled at 75 times faster than the battle participants can travel, and using radio to do it.

 

Equal doesn't mean right, and actually it isn't equal.  Enemy waters is where people are.  Who can travel with an entire fleet there to make it equal?  And also revenge fleets don't have to happen in enemy waters, they can happen anywhere.  But enemy waters are where you are going to find pvp.  Unless you prefer the game to die.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Prater

[Skully]

7 minutes ago, Prater said:

And the fact that battle time is different than OW time is another major player.  There is no realism with revenge fleets, at all.  There isn't a single case of an entire fleet forming up around a battle after having traveled at 75 times faster than the battle participants can travel, and using radio to do it.

 

Equal doesn't mean right, and actually it isn't equal.  Enemy waters is where people are.  Who can travel with an entire fleet there to make it equal?  And also revenge fleets don't have to happen in enemy waters, they can happen anywhere.

Radio isn't going away. Fast OW speed (versus real time) isn't going away. If want realism on those items, then prepare to be disappointed.

We simply dealt with the revenge fleet by not providing them the opportunity to form. (The French guy ended up with the Victory. Mission accomplished.)

[Liq]

9 minutes ago, Skully said:

We simply dealt with the revenge fleet by not providing them the opportunity to form.

how is this a bad thing?

[Prater]

Yes, but the revenge fleet is no longer a concern, because the devs fixed it.  They fixed it because like you said fast ow speed isn't going away and radio isnt going away.  So they added in an element to make it more difficult to revenge fleet using those.

Now all that needs done are tweaks here and there.

 

I tested and Outlaw Battles give you Invisibility and Speed.  This should change.
Can't join time should be at least 3 minutes (same as battle join timer).

Edited July 20, 2017 by Prater

[Slamz]

On 7/17/2017 at 4:23 PM, Prater said:

I was referring to trader defensive tags.  If the Trader defensive tags, it will be impossible to catch them now.

One easy idea for this would be to make it so that the outer edge of the circle translates to about 650 yards in the battle. This guarantees that even an edge of the circle tag puts your target within Control range. @admin? I bet he could hotfix this as an experiment. It's probably just one number in the code.

I'm not sure what the current translation is but edge-of-the-circle today seems to translate to at least 1000 yards in battle. May even be more like 1500. Right now it's possible for a tag to put someone out of any sort of cannon range which is a bit pointless.

Edited July 20, 2017 by Slamz

[Skully]

21 hours ago, Mrgoldstein said:

Yup i this is a bit to much, i got sneak attacked yesterday, there was a single basic cutter lying dead in the water (prolly spying alt) and all of a sudden there was a surprise right behind my trader insta tagging me..

Revenge fleets were bad but this is ridiculous too..

 

8 hours ago, Prater said:

Yes, but the revenge fleet is no longer a concern, because the devs fixed it.  They fixed it because like you said fast ow speed isn't going away and radio isnt going away.  So they added in an element to make it more difficult to revenge fleet using those.

Yup, they "fixed" it alright. The well known invisibility gank is back with an added speed bonus to ensure you get your target.

Providing alters with such tools surely is the best solution. 

I think I should rephrase my questions to: what type of gank do you prefer to be hit by?

If I'm out on the waters without scout, decoy or fleet, I'm putting myself at high risk.

Better reward for the gankees, so they can more easily replace their ship and go at it again. We had multi-dura, but that seriously undermines strategical logistics. (Yes, reward the carebears. It will improve the eco system.)

[Sureshot]

I Like how revenge fleets are almost gone with the speed boost, it's great. 

Speed boost needs to have a long no attack timer or dual invisibility. Or possibly both. 

On revenge fleets, I've been on the wrong end many times but I recently got to take part in one a few weeks back for the first time in years. It felt so stupid, dumb and just straight up a shitty way of getting revenge. It was so easy, all I needed to do was sit right where the battle was and then as soon as enemy popped out we tagged em' and capped their ships. It was like being given a free ship without any effort. I thought it was bad being on the receiving end, but when you are the one doing it it really opens your eyes and shows you how stupid it is. Glad they are a thing of the past. Revenge fleets are just a lazy, lazy way of playing the game. 

Here's to hoping they never return!  

 

[Archaos]

9 hours ago, Slamz said:

One easy idea for this would be to make it so that the outer edge of the circle translates to about 650 yards in the battle. This guarantees that even an edge of the circle tag puts your target within Control range. @admin? I bet he could hotfix this as an experiment. It's probably just one number in the code.

I'm not sure what the current translation is but edge-of-the-circle today seems to translate to at least 1000 yards in battle. May even be more like 1500. Right now it's possible for a tag to put someone out of any sort of cannon range which is a bit pointless.

Please this is a bad idea, it takes all skill away from getting a good tag. Sort out the defensive tagging issue another way but leave it so that if the attacker decides to tag and be at the edge of the tag circle when the time expires then they have to work to get their prey.

The simple solution to the defensive tag is an off centered tag circle, which I assume should be relatively easy to change.

[Prater]

8 hours ago, Skully said:

 

Yup, they "fixed" it alright. The well known invisibility gank is back with an added speed bonus to ensure you get your target.

Providing alters with such tools surely is the best solution. 

I think I should rephrase my questions to: what type of gank do you prefer to be hit by?

If I'm out on the waters without scout, decoy or fleet, I'm putting myself at high risk.

Better reward for the gankees, so they can more easily replace their ship and go at it again. We had multi-dura, but that seriously undermines strategical logistics. (Yes, reward the carebears. It will improve the eco system.)

With the right tweaks, which many of us have described, invisibility ganks won't be possible.

[admin]

55 minutes ago, Prater said:

With the right tweaks, which many of us have described, invisibility ganks won't be possible.

can you provide the summary of these right tweaks?

[Prater]

7 minutes ago, admin said:

can you provide the summary of these right tweaks?

• Outlaw battles shouldn't give invisibility
• Can't join battle timer should be 3 minutes (this should always be the same as the battle join timer so you can't jump out of a battle when your friend tags an enemy and you join the battle without the enemy ever knowing you were nearby in a battle)
• Add one more minute to the can't attack timer (if you can do the below, this isn't necessary).

 

I don't know if this is possible, but if it is possible:

• When you are invisible, you cannot see anyone.  This should stop people from being able to set up ganks where they and their friends are invisible and sneaking up on unsuspecting passers by.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Prater

[DeRuyter]

7 minutes ago, admin said:

can you provide the summary of these right tweaks?

1. Dual invisibility

2. Longer join timer at end of speed boost. I think @Pratermentioned 3 minutes. 

3. No speed boost after outlaw battle.

I think the longer timer may help solve the problem of an alt sitting outside spotting for an invisible ship. There may be more suggestions in the thread but these are the main ones.

 

 by Prater !

Edited July 21, 2017 by DeRuyter

[Prater]

18 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

Dual Invisibility can lead towards spawning on top of many enemy ships, it's a double edge sword...

Indeed, but I think it brings the blindness of the 18th and 19th centuries to the forefront.  And I think it is a good compromise for OW Time Compression vs Battle Instance vs Invisibility Speed Buff on leaving battle.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Prater

[Skully]

I think dual invisibility will only provide a false sense of security. The bait ship has eyes on the gankee and knows the position of the ganker(s). It's not that hard to direct a fleet to a certain/predetermined location.

Having the normal OW entry rules at the end of invisibility might take the edge off the incoming ganker though.

Be aware though that we are stepping into logoff and tow timer. While I think logoff must be an option after battle, tow definitely should not.

Turbo definitely must go. With turbo in place the invisibility gank will remain too easy to execute.

I should really have brought the Fog of War proposal, which is quite similar, back up. Can't recall why I did not.

TL;DR remove any and all visibility exploits by putting up a fog bank at the end of a battle.

[Skully]

This actually gave me an idea: what if the exit battle choice needs to be made at the start of the exit battle timer.

In other words, you choose exit battle it starts the 90 second timer in which you must not be hit. As opposed to getting the option after not having been hit for 90 seconds.

Having such a delay will seriously hamper battle instance hinders. While not impacting anybody else.

[Prater]

The bait ship doesn't necessarily know the position of the gankers.  He can estimate, but he won't know exactly unless he is one of the gankers and the bait ship is his alt.

Edited July 21, 2017 by Prater

[Prater]

2 minutes ago, Peter Goldman said:

It sounds cool until you will spawn a couple of times alone inside huge enemy fleet.

You still have invulnerability for several minutes (and can't attack or join battles).  How do you fix invisibility ganks otherwise?  And running into a huge fleet when you can't see them and they can't see you is less likely than the old system where it was a sure thing of spawning in the middle of a huge fleet when leaving battle (revenge gank).

[Daguse]

7 hours ago, admin said:

can you provide the summary of these right tweaks?

Dual invisibility and exclude outlaw battles!

[akd]

2 min invulnerability if you don't move on exit.  You can log-off or teleport to nearest deep water port.  5 min no attack / no join after logging back in or TPing.  Transparent system, does not hold players hostage to game, does not involve mechanics that can be exploited to gank.

Edited July 21, 2017 by akd

[Daguse]

7 minutes ago, akd said:

2 min invulnerability if you don't move on exit.  You can log-off or teleport to nearest deep water port.  5 min no attack / no join after logging back in or TPing.  Transparent system, does not hold players hostage to game, does not involve mechanics that can be exploited to gank.

I like the exit idea. However, I don't like the idea of supporting tp. We don't want people tping all the time.

[akd]

Who cares?  If you are near own port or free port, legit escape.  If you are near enemy port you just get put in front of enemy port, and enemy players know you are either there or logged off.  Only thing I don't like is smuggler flag allowing entry to enemy ports on traders after TP, but that is already a problem with TP to nearest deep port and one of many problems with the bogus implementation of "smuggling."

Edited July 22, 2017 by akd

[Slamz]

10 hours ago, Peter Goldman said:

It sounds cool until you will spawn a couple of times alone inside huge enemy fleet.

That's extremely unlikely. Huge ocean, 45 seconds of warp speed and you happen to pop out in the exact 0.0001% of the map that contains a huge enemy fleet? Is your ship powered by an Improbability Drive?

Let's at least shoot down ideas with realistic scenarios, not something that will quite possibly never happen once if this game runs for 10 years.

[greybuscat]

17 hours ago, Peter Goldman said:

It sounds cool until you will spawn a couple of times alone inside huge enemy fleet.

 

3 hours ago, Peter Goldman said:

Your battles won't usually take place in the middle of ocean by around enemy ports, right? Last time a Dutch 1st rate fleet spawned on top of me in the middle of storm.

Your entire argument seems to be "it wouldn't be fun if you happened to blunder into a big fleet and get killed." Duh? Am I missing something here? Maybe I'm just tired.

8 hours ago, akd said:

Who cares?  If you are near own port or free port, legit escape.  If you are near enemy port you just get put in front of enemy port, and enemy players know you are either there or logged off.  Only thing I don't like is smuggler flag allowing entry to enemy ports on traders after TP, but that is already a problem with TP to nearest deep port and one of many problems with the bogus implementation of "smuggling."

 

12 hours ago, akd said:

2 min invulnerability if you don't move on exit.  You can log-off or teleport to nearest deep water port.  5 min no attack / no join after logging back in or TPing.  Transparent system, does not hold players hostage to game, does not involve mechanics that can be exploited to gank.

OW "teleporting" should be for getting unstuck, and little else. I don't see how you can see smuggling as bogus, but lobby for more magical physics-defying game mechanics, practically within the same breath.

The game does not hold you hostage. The logout timer is reasonable, and circumventing that is basically calling for backdoor combat logging.

Edited July 22, 2017 by greybuscat
said "cooldown" instead of "logout" for some reason