Early Access' most glaring issues based on the example of Naval Action

[BloodyRaven]

Hi guys, 

I have been playing this game since Sea Trials and I really enjoy it. Unfortunately, the latest community rage and the whole aggression between some of its members and developers forced me to write my opinion and thoughts about that. I hope some of you will agree with me and let them do their job as they intended to...

Whole article was published here: http://www.gamepressure.com/e.asp?ID=1448

[Anolytic]

I agree with you on your basic points, and I do think a lot of people don't understand what Alpha or Early Access means. But I'm not sure your entire analysis is well founded in the article.

[qw569😳]

1 hour ago, BloodyRaven said:

Hi guys, 

I have been playing this game since Sea Trials and I really enjoy it. Unfortunately, the latest community rage and the whole aggression between some of its members and developers forced me to write my opinion and thoughts about that. I hope some of you will agree with me and let them do their job as they intended to...

Whole article was published here: http://www.gamepressure.com/e.asp?ID=1448

You forgot to add link to steam store.

[BloodyRaven]

20 minutes ago, Anolytic said:

I agree with you on your basic points, and I do think a lot of people don't understand what Alpha or Early Access means. But I'm not sure your entire analysis is well founded in the article.

I'm aware that this subject is deep as an ocean, but I wanted to keep this text as short as possible. People don't like to read these days 

And it wasn't my intention to analyse every rage, ban etc. here. All I wanted is to be realistic about this whole project. From both sides, devs and players.  

Edited April 29, 2017 by BloodyRaven

[admin]

13 minutes ago, BloodyRaven said:

I'm aware that this subject is deep as an ocean, but I wanted to keep this text as short as possible. People don't like to read these days 

And it wasn't my intention to analyse every rage, ban etc. here. All I wanted is to be realistic about this whole project. From both sides, devs and players.  

We don't see any developer comments in it. You have never approached us to comment.

1) you exaggerate the negativity. Forums are always full of negative people. Overall rating is good and you conveniently forget to mention that. Forums are always full of people who don't like something. The rest are just playing in silence.
2) 80% players leaving is normal for every game. check out fallout 4 numbers. Also that number is not really correct AND depend on the time period. Also a of those players are waiting for ui and full release. 
3) you can be the first official source to announce naval action arena that actually will bring awesome sea trials back. That game will have zero problems from NA. 

ps. steam link would be good

[BloodyRaven]

14 minutes ago, admin said:

We don't see any developer comments in it. You have never approached us to comment.

1) you exaggerate the negativity. Forums are always full of negative people. Overall rating is good and you conveniently forget to mention that. Why?
2) 80% players leaving is normal for every game. check out fallout 4 numbers. Also that number is not really correct AND depend on the time period. Also a of those players are waiting for ui and full release. 

And yes. where is the link to the steam page?

 

These are my thoughts about this game and developing. I don't need developer to write what I think.

Negativity - I play this game on daily basis and I really like it. But I also know what people say and I see mixed reviews on steam (more or less last 4-6 months), compared to very good before...

80% - it was you who wrote "The goal is to solve the 80% of new players never reaching the brig." in Q&A. This sounds like a problem. And it really is.

Why should I post link to Steam page? 

   

Edited April 29, 2017 by BloodyRaven

[admin]

13 minutes ago, BloodyRaven said:

 

80% - it was you who wrote "The goal is to solve the 80% of new players never reaching the brig." in Q&A. This sounds like a problem. And it really is.

   

Thats a not a bad and not a good number. Its somewhat meaningless during EA.
And its ok for a game with out UI. 80% of players never buy a second tank in world of tanks. 40% of players never reach 3rd boss in dark souls (with only 20% reaching the final boss)
That number sounds scary but its normal of the industry. Its very hard to improve it because players move on very fast these days and we doubt tutorials will help.
UI will improve retention to dark souls levels. (with 60% reaching the brig) but they will sill fall off.

Based on sales it is already an indie hit. Not many games reach 100,000 sales during EA. And it will sell another 100-150k after release. Our goal is to increase retention for those players.  Many players who play now just don't have that perspective and don't understand the experiments that are being conducted. You captured that well in your article.  it is similar to that darkest dungeon story. 

[BloodyRaven]

Just now, admin said:

Thats a common number.
And its ok for a game with out UI. 80 of players never buy a second tank in world of tanks. 40% of players never reach 3rd boss in dark souls.
That number sounds scary but its normal of the industry. Its very hard to improve it because and we doubt tutorials will help. UI will improve it to dark souls levels. (with 60% reaching the brig) but they will sill fall off.

You know.... I feel really confused right now. Am i under attack? Why?

All I wrote is based on admin posts on this forum, and on present situation. What will happen in a future - who knows. So relax. I really believe that your team can overcome all obstacles and deliver solid game. 

[admin]

2 minutes ago, BloodyRaven said:

You know.... I feel really confused right now. Am i under attack? Why?

 

hmm what did give that impression? Never had that goal
We are just trying to explain that the number 80% is actually average and is not bad. its like saying.. he died at 80 very bad. Of course its bad but ..if everyone dies at 80 it becomes a norm. If he died at 30 but everyone dies at 80 then its very very bad. Probably its bad analogy  but it explains it best.

 

[BloodyRaven]

 

34 minutes ago, admin said:

3) you can be the first official source to announce naval action arena that actually will bring awesome sea trials back. That game will have zero problems from NA. 

 

To be clear. Arena won't be a part of NA? Another, independent Steam product, right? 

Edited April 29, 2017 by BloodyRaven

[admin]

10 minutes ago, BloodyRaven said:

To be clear. Arena won't be a part of NA? Another, independent Steam product, right? 

NA is an open world MMO. The new game (so called arena) is going to be a separate game. We have not picked the name for the title (and pricing) yet. But its going to get into closed beta testing this year.

PS .. by the way did you see our comment above that it was not an attack but to attempt to bring another perspective on retention numbers ?

[BloodyRaven]

9 minutes ago, admin said:

NA is an open world MMO. The new game (so called arena) is going to be a separate game. We have not picked the name for the title (and pricing) yet. But its going to get into closed beta testing this year.

PS .. by the way did you see our comment above that it was not an attack but to attempt to bring another perspective on retention numbers ?

hmmmm this is could be good and bad news tbh. Arena could really succeed and also kill open world game. We will see. 

P.S. 80% - yes we cool

Edited April 29, 2017 by BloodyRaven

[Cmdr RideZ]

31 minutes ago, admin said:

80% of players never buy a second tank in world of tanks.

Would like to point out that WOT is f2p, NA is not.

WOT is a very casual friendly game tough, and NA is not.

Other factors as well, just saying that I would not draw direct line here.

[Bart Smith]

My question: how work on "new arena game" affect finishing Naval Action?

Edited April 29, 2017 by Bart Smith

[Anolytic]

1 hour ago, BloodyRaven said:

And it wasn't my intention to analyse every rage, ban etc. here. All I wanted is to be realistic about this whole project. From both sides, devs and players.  

My comment wasn't that you didn't cover every point, which I do not expect, it was that some of those points that you were making aren't accurate and not backed by arguments. Admin covered the most prominent example of the "80%" which is a figure given without comparisons, and yet accompanied with what serves as a conclusion.

14 minutes ago, Bart Smith said:

My question: how work on "new arena game" affect finishing Naval Action?

This isn't really on topic, but what has been stated is that a separate, small team is working on Naval Action: Sea Trials (name I'm rooting for). It's development is not supposed to affect Naval Action, and the people who have been working on Naval Action are still working on Naval Action.

 

Edited April 29, 2017 by Anolytic

[victor]

1 hour ago, admin said:

NA is an open world MMO. The new game (so called arena) is going to be a separate game. We have not picked the name for the title (and pricing) yet. But its going to get into closed beta testing this year.

PS .. by the way did you see our comment above that it was not an attack but to attempt to bring another perspective on retention numbers ?

Just to be sure that I understand right, the "arena" new thing is more or less taking Naval Action instanced combat - adding some sort of matchmaking and rankings - and selling it as a separate game (also to NA owners)?

Edited April 29, 2017 by victor

[Anolytic]

10 minutes ago, victor said:

Just to be sure that I understand right, the "arena" new thing is more or less taking Naval Action instanced combat - adding some sort of matchmaking and rankings - and selling it as a separate game (also to NA owners)?

NA early access owners will get it for free according to previous statements.

[Guest]

Not bad, though I'd disagree with the supposed focus on realism (it's quite lightweight compared to truly realism-oriented titles, for a good reason), 80% retention loss beyond the first couple of hours doesn't seem that bad for an EA title (lord knows that I have quite a few promising EA titles collecting dust to be revisited once they're done, especially so for MMOs that you have to get invested in), and as of late the devs have taken a strong stance on the game's direction, which warranted a mention.

The rest is largely on point, good stuff.

[Sir Texas Sir]

2 hours ago, Custard said:

I have 40k plus battles in WOT, friendly it is not the ingame chat has vile stuff in it everytime I play even though you can only chat to same side now. The forums are a cesspit compared to NA it's like a meeting of the Women's Institute in here most of the time.

ftp in name only I have spent about £90 on it in 6 years I don't know anyone that has spent nothing on it.

I have accounts on all the servers.   I have just about all the tanks unlockd on my main NA account and I have up till a year or so ago every Prem tank they came out with includeding all the rare tanks (I alpha/beta it so i got those tanks too).. I'm not agoing to say what I spent on that game, but we can say you can prob add a zero or two to what you spent.  Yah and there is a reason I haven't played it other than a game here or two in the last year and half. I got so burned out on it.   This game took it place and I been enjoying the fun and not having to buy every new tank that comes out or pay for gold to stay conpetive.   I was realy hoping the sanbox ideal was going to be a real sandbox, but it isn't.

Yah that game is nothig like this and I would not use it as to compare to this game.

OP I thought the review was pretty good.  Your right a lot of people just can't get it in there head about this game being a EA Alpha level of Development game.  I might get hot headed some times but I love this game. I don't all ways agree with what the devs do to, but for the most part the direction I like.   

[Lannes]

6 hours ago, BloodyRaven said:

Hi guys, 

I have been playing this game since Sea Trials and I really enjoy it. Unfortunately, the latest community rage and the whole aggression between some of its members and developers forced me to write my opinion and thoughts about that. I hope some of you will agree with me and let them do their job as they intended to...

Whole article was published here: http://www.gamepressure.com/e.asp?ID=1448

Thanks for that, Bloody Raven. It helps me with a broader view of what has been happening and to put things in perspective. I had thought that nearly 3 years in development was a very long time and a long time to be in Early Access. I didn't know there had been 100,000 sales at €36.99 = €3,699,000. Is this regarded as a substantial amount to develop a game? Perhaps, not, given there are 20 developers.

[Macjimm]

10 hours ago, BloodyRaven said:

Whole article was published here: http://www.gamepressure.com/e.asp?ID=1448

BloodyRaven,

your thoughts seem well thought out but how did you arrive at a 10 years wait ...

Otherwise, the virtual sailors will have to wait another decade or so for a game with a similar premise. 

Edited April 29, 2017 by Macjimm

[Hethwill]

Jus a off shot about games and how graphics / stats / perceptions can be really deceiving.

This baby still played by several communities, solo players, and there's events happening on a calendar around the clock.

Granted it is from a different age of game development where in game editors were a must. Nowadays not so much with some notable exceptions.

[BloodyRaven]

40 minutes ago, Macjimm said:

your thoughts seem well thought out but how did you arrive at a 10 years wait ...

You know... last time when I was waiting for such a MMO sailing game was 2006-2007 and Pirates of the Burning Sea. So....

[Cmdr RideZ]

18 hours ago, Custard said:

I have 40k plus battles in WOT, friendly it is not the ingame chat has vile stuff in it everytime I play even though you can only chat to same side now. The forums are a cesspit compared to NA it's like a meeting of the Women's Institute in here most of the time.

ftp in name only I have spent about £90 on it in 6 years I don't know anyone that has spent nothing on it.

Point was that f2p players did not buy anything before playing.  So there can be accounts that were just created and never used.  It is also pretty easy to just test a game, and quit right after if you did not like it.  So 80% quit before they bought their second tank.

Naval Action, b2p, was it 37€ at steam atm.  So you make your buying decision before you play.  This at least should mean that these guys are more interested, and not just testing and quitting right after.  Some probably are waiting for launch, but not sure if that explains 80%.

[Captain Jean-Luc Picard]

On 2017/4/29 at 5:48 PM, Lannes said:

 I had thought that nearly 3 years in development was a very long time and a long time to be in Early Access. I didn't know there had been 100,000 sales at €36.99 = €3,699,000. Is this regarded as a substantial amount to develop a game?

Just a reminder that dayz has just now entered beta, after being first available in EA in december 2013, and that steam takes a cut ( there is an NDA so there is no way to ever know how much they take ).

As for the costs of making a game, there is of course a laaarge variation between games, but this kotaku article from 2014, besides some basic explanation, has the advantage of providing some precise examples with sources, note that the cost shown might not be the development cost but the marketing one: http://kotaku.com/how-much-does-it-cost-to-make-a-big-video-game-1501413649

 

On 2017/4/29 at 10:12 PM, The Red Duke said:

Jus a off shot about games and how graphics / stats / perceptions can be really deceiving.

[il sturmovik 1946] is still played by several communities, solo players, and there's events happening on a calendar around the clock.

Granted it is from a different age of game development where in game editors were a must. Nowadays not so much with some notable exceptions.

Great game, i still play it now and again XD

Also the one year older silent hunter 3.

And a great many more.

Note that sometimes old games get great mods from the fans, which also helps the games longevity.