Grapeshot - Broken?

[Liq]

So. I knew Grape-Shot was kinda strong at the moment, so i thought i'd had to test how far i could go. Was spying in my cutter in enemy waters, when i got pulled into combat. An inger and me vs. a Spanish Bucentaure.
The Inger just stayed on range and chained the buc, so i thought that was my chance to get on the buc's stern and take it down. After an hour  of constant manouvering i had killed 449 Crew off that buc by simply shooting it's stern with basic 4pdr grape shots. At this point, the Buc. decided to run.
Now I'm asking myself, is that supposed to be THIS effective? I can not imagine that in reality a cutter would have been able to deal this severe damage to the buccentaure with his 4pdr cannons.. Discuss please =)

Edited September 15, 2016 by Liquicity

[maturin]

Grape is probably too effective at low calibers.

 

But what we really need are marines volley firing at your little cutter and knocking out your crew first.

[Liq]

I totally agree, interactive crew would help with this issue, with stern-camping by smaller ships in general.

[MikeCK]

In reality, most captains would have moved some smaller guns on the quarter deck and fired those at you on their stern...if nothing else, swivel guns. Seems the AI chose to ignore you

I don't think Grape is overpowered. Your sweeping decks with 6 cannons worth of ping pong ball sized iron rounds. You said yourself you did it for an hour. I would expect those types of casualties of you fired 360 balls of grape onto a crowded deck! (6 cannons, 4lbs so each grape round likely has two rows of 3 balls each...36...and 10 broadsides)

Grape was extremely effective which is why the ship was armed with so many swivel guns: smaller guns loaded with small grape charges meant to be used prior to boarding to do that very thing: sweep the deck

[Cecil Selous]

but he was in a cutter behind a very big (tall) Bucentare. If he is close, the angle should be to bad to even shoot down the lenght of a deck, let alone reaching it at all. If he is further away, well, 4 lb cannons with grape. Shouldn't work imho.

[maturin]

but he was in a cutter behind a very big (tall) Bucentare. If he is close, the angle should be to bad to even shoot down the lenght of a deck, let alone reaching it at all. If he is further away, well, 4 lb cannons with grape. Shouldn't work imho.

Everything is hitbox-based. So whatever the ballistics, those shot are actually hitting the crew colliders. Now, the hitboxes may be mimicking some rather robotic behavior, but that's another story.

 

I'm more concerned with the damage differences between 4-pdr and 32-pdr grape.

[Bramborough]

 Seems the AI chose to ignore you

 

Take another look at the screenie.  That was a player Buc, not AI.

[Jeheil]

Grape is broken if the defending captain is devoid of other capabilities.

 

IRL they would have got a bunch of chaps with muskets to give you a seeing off or moved a couple of quarter deck carros with cannisters to convince you to ply your trade elsewhere.

 

So I would probably say, grape is inbalanced where a very small ship can stern camp a large ship with impunity.

 

As it was unchallenged by any available counter defence from the Bucc. You would in 60 mins have probably got off 

50-70 graping volleys...lets assume 3 hit each volley, so thats 150-210 hitting shots...killing about 2 crew per hit....those maths don't make me thing grape is OP....

 

I should also add that you are unbalanced with such skillzors that you never wandered into a broadside....coz it would only take one !

 

Edit : Just noticed you were shooting at a moderator...they have the "Thin Skinned" perk and as such, working as intended <Jeheil ducks and runs away>

Edited September 15, 2016 by Jeheil

[JollyRoger1516]

Tbf armour on a ship doesn't mean anything if you aim the grape through a window and that can be done by any ship against any ship. Really dont want them to bring armor as a factor for glass windows back - however I struggle to see you having the elevation on your cannons to fire through the balcony of a Bucentaure - and even then you run a very small caliber and the should not travel through the entire ship but quickly but stopped by objects on its way. THat needs to be less of a factor for bigger guns though - 9lbs and 12-24 should be very effective at this and I don't see it being bugged - rake should be painful (don't forget this also applies to me should I let it happen) and a captain should be punished for letting it happen.

Edited September 15, 2016 by JollyRoger1516

[Sir Texas Sir]

Grape is probably too effective at low calibers.

 

But what we really need are marines volley firing at your little cutter and knocking out your crew first.

 

They really need to make a small zone around your ship that your marines or other crew can effectively shoot the other crew that might be on deck.  I believe we had this in POTBS at one time.  It doens't have to be a bunch, but it will keep small ships off your stern or some folks that like to camp/face huge your side to try to push you into the wind or hide under your cannons.

 

I have been noticing folks are using a lot of grape lately. I know they are testing new crew damage in the test server but it's like they are doing more damge.  Though I think it's prob cause a lot of those folks that are doing this are the ones we board and defect pretty fast even when we don't have marines.

[admin]

So. I knew Grape-Shot was kinda strong at the moment, so i thought i'd had to test how far i could go. Was spying in my cutter in enemy waters, when i got pulled into combat. An inger and me vs. a Spanish Bucentaure.

 

 

 

Naval Action is a skill based game. Some people (even those present in this thread) say it is a gear based game and and upgrades matter. Your case is one of the example that proves them wrong every day. 

 

You just transcended to another - much higher level.

• You accepted that you are already dead.
• You did not care about losing your ship
• You ignored the conventions
• You won despite these facts: 

Cutter can be demasted easily

Cutter crew is like really vulnerable. Experienced captains can kill a cutter from 6 guns in just 2 broadsides (using grape).

 

also

Grape is the bag of 8 to 12 to maybe 24 metal balls - caliber of the bullet does not matter. 

small bullet into a brain. large bullet into a brain. size does not matter

[Hethwill]

True that and uncontested.

 

Still there might be something amiss in the Mediums or Longs comparison. At 200m versus LGV, taking normal turn and tumble positioning, there's a definite difference in results. Have plenty of YT videos to compare

Last one is with mediums and it is really felt.

Maybe it is the falloff curve ?

[Sir Texas Sir]

THat is the other thing I was wondering where is the stern gun on that ship?   I had a small ship on the rear of my ship this morning and I was chucnk 64 lbrs at him and it was very effective of getting him off my rear.  I been seeing a lot of ships that should have them not have them when we capture ships.

[Cmdr RideZ]

Probably going to repeat myself...

 

You can just spam the grapes on the deck as well.  Each hit equals 4 kills, I think.  You do not have to stern camp to kill the crew.  This leads to a fact, that if you do not know how to sail, learn at least to aim grapes correctly.  Also, if the ship is in a good shape, it should protect the crew.  Now it feels like there is nothing to cover the crew.  I do not know if this is how it was, but at least this is how it feels.

 

Crew damage through deck hits should be lower, or balanced to how many men are needed on the weather deck.  I started to think the later, and that is how it probably should be, as that will create extra characteristic for ships. But also to fix so that the crew damage is not as massive as it is atm. from grapes.

 

Also, what if I have no crew on sails?  All are reloading and only small portion on the weather deck.  This could be another relatively good small details to add.

 

Less men you have, less crew damage you should suffer.

 

Stern camping is easier than in the real life, so stern hits cannot be as devastating as in the real life.  It could cause "reload shock" or something similar, instead of massive casualties.

 

Cutter example, I think that could still go, as relatively long time was spend to cause the kills.  The issue comes when similar ships fight, and other one grapes the stern and the enemy loses 35% from his crew with one broadside.  This simply is not fun.  I do not want to win with a lucky hit, nor I want to lose.

[Eishen]

Being the ofended bucentaure myself.... ...    I felt as if my sailor were making a queue to go to stern (perhaps to wc?) having turns to expose to the cutters shots

 

my money is on maturin comments...

 

 

 

Grape is probably too effective at low calibers.

 

But what we really need are marines volley firing at your little cutter and knocking out your crew first.

 

 

 

and 

 

 

Everything is hitbox-based. So whatever the ballistics, those shot are actually hitting the crew colliders. Now, the hitboxes may be mimicking some rather robotic behavior, but that's another story.

 

I'm more concerned with the damage differences between 4-pdr and 32-pdr grape.

 

 

 

As for  the fight itself ... Liquid showed great skill in maintaining himself out of gun angle , other than rear chasers ofc....or at least more skill than myself in demasting him   (thought finally managed riping his sails and run)..    credit too to your kite partner (Thirdlegiswood?) able maintaining kite distance and fire discipline almost full fight 

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

Yes, grape is broken.

[Morales]

Naval Action is a skill based game. Some people (even those present in this thread) say it is a gear based game and and upgrades matter. Your case is one of the example that proves them wrong every day. 

 

You just transcended to another - much higher level.

• You accepted that you are already dead.
• You did not care about losing your ship
• You ignored the conventions
• You won despite these facts: 

Cutter can be demasted easily

Cutter crew is like really vulnerable. Experienced captains can kill a cutter from 6 guns in just 2 broadsides (using grape).

 

also

Grape is the bag of 8 to 12 to maybe 24 metal balls - caliber of the bullet does not matter. 

small bullet into a brain. large bullet into a brain. size does not matter

 

I am agree with the "skill based game" and if you put grappes into 68 pd, cutter will be down after 4 or 6 shots.

 

But ! I think it is a good idea to add the possibilities  at marines to fire with muskets on closer ships with a crew attribution. It was a very usefull mechanics during age of sails

 

Nelson was kill by a musket volley.

[admin]

 

You can just spam the grapes on the deck as well.  Each hit equals 4 kills, I think.  You do not have to stern camp to kill the crew.  This leads to a fact, that if you do not know how to sail, learn at least to aim grapes correctly.  Also, if the ship is in a good shape, it should protect the crew.  Now it feels like there is nothing to cover the crew.  I do not know if this is how it was, but at least this is how it feels.

 

 

 

Santisima has 4 decks. The crew is split at approximately 250 men per deck. 

by repeatingly shooting at the deck with grape (unprotected) you will kill some crew. But after some time you will stop doing damage, and will have to aim elsewhere. 

Grape does not penetrate intact planking- you have to destroy planking first to penetrate. (or you can aim into ports or windows).

 

Which ships are you referring to? Can you show screens or videos of really killing 200 men from one shot from santisima?

[admin]

Вчера какой-то шкет на фрегате неплохо так в целые борта выносил команду нашим с метров 50-ти с лонгов. То есть навесом на палубу вряд ли мог попадать. Ну или прям точно в порты попадал. У одного человек сорок убил, у другого около 150. Не знаю, правда, имелось в виду за один залп или нет, но как минимум в целые борта можно убивать команду неплохо.

 

надо было зарепортить

 

вообще мы рекомендуем все что странное происходит сразу репортить ф11 чтобы логи были

we recommend reporting any strange grape behavior (abnormal) by sending us the bug report using F11 function

[Liq]

I don't think Grape is overpowered. Your sweeping decks with 6 cannons worth of ping pong ball sized iron rounds. You said yourself you did it for an hour. I would expect those types of casualties of you fired 360 balls of grape onto a crowded deck! (6 cannons, 4lbs so each grape round likely has two rows of 3 balls each...36...and 10 broadsides)

 

Well first I had to get the Buc's stern down with my basic 4pdr balls. That took a while, probably around 20 minutes. But once I was done with that, I did around 16-24 Crew kills per Grape Broadside. Was a bit surprised by that myself Oo

[Loco Bandito]

I've been noticing too with a lot of armor on my boat from broadsides I've been losing a lot of crew. More than usual lately.

[MikeCK]

Grape is broken if the defending captain is devoid of other capabilities.

IRL they would have got a bunch of chaps with muskets to give you a seeing off or moved a couple of quarter deck carros with cannisters to convince you to ply your trade elsewhere.

So I would probably say, grape is inbalanced where a very small ship can stern camp a large ship with impunity.

As it was unchallenged by any available counter defence from the Bucc. You would in 60 mins have probably got off

50-70 graping volleys...lets assume 3 hit each volley, so thats 150-210 hitting shots...killing about 2 crew per hit....those maths don't make me thing grape is OP....

I should also add that you are unbalanced with such skillzors that you never wandered into a broadside....coz it would only take one !

Edit : Just noticed you were shooting at a moderator...they have the "Thin Skinned" perk and as such, working as intended <Jeheil ducks and runs away>

This was what I was trying to say but you were more articulate. It's not that Grape is overpowered...its that the receiving ship did nothing about it (or could not do anything)

Well first I had to get the Buc's stern down with my basic 4pdr balls. That took a while, probably around 20 minutes. But once I was done with that, I did around 16-24 Crew kills per Grape Broadside. Was a bit surprised by that myself Oo

Hmmm...that does seem high for 4lb grape. I would think 4-6

[maturin]

Should grapeshot even exist for guns of this caliber? IIRC most individual shot used in grape were 2-3 pounds. Popguns like this would be stuck firing langridge and the like.

 

Edit: Anyone have some pre-Napoleonic sources? The 1850s Napoleon 12-pounder guns fired 9 grapeshot at a time. Hard to imagine fitting more than a few of those in a 4-pdr.

 

 

The Pandora's Box here is cannister, which everyone would use instead, if available. That would be effective in a 4-pdr for sure.

[Cmdr RideZ]

Santisima has 4 decks. The crew is split at approximately 250 men per deck. 

by repeatingly shooting at the deck with grape (unprotected) you will kill some crew. But after some time you will stop doing damage, and will have to aim elsewhere. 

Grape does not penetrate intact planking- you have to destroy planking first to penetrate. (or you can aim into ports or windows).

 

Which ships are you referring to? Can you show screens or videos of really killing 200 men from one shot from santisima?

Deck thing is good to know, but not sure if that really works with 2 deckers.

 

If you have not seen the screenshot, that is on testing forum, where a Frig kills 99 crew from Belle Poulle with 1 stern rake of grapes.  100/280*99 = +35%

[maturin]

 

 

Grape is not usually that. It is 9 ball of around 10% nominal weight in the sea service version that needed to penetrate ships' boats or bulwarks.

Always 9 balls, each 10% the weight of the corresponding shot?

 

So 9 1.2 lb balls in a 12-pdr load of grape?