US Navy Accuracy

[Snoggy]

Since we're all on the 'remove pirate SoL' bandwagon, I believe the United States should also be added to that list. Given the time period, the US Navy never possessed a single Ship of the line. In fact the biggest and best ships the US Navy had are already in-game, the Essex and the Constitution.

 

 

Since we're going to be all 'historically accurate' and such, I think this is an entirely reasonable request.

[Rikard Frederiksen]

There is the 90-gun USS Independence, and I suppose they could wing the USS Pennsylvania, which was originally authorised around 1816, and had her keel laid in 1821 with provision for around 140 guns. There are quite a few larger ships available, for which I would consult this thread.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Rikard Frederiksen

[Mrdoomed]

Yes some people are so worried about historical accuracy EXEPT when it comes to 19th century teleport machines and ocean travel at FTL speed and port attacks on a daily time schedule that no matter how many days in a row they are attacked they pop back to life and the dumb population comes back.

The historical accuracy of being able to escape a ship only to be re tagged by the shil you just got away from and then FINALLY getting away to have the ships behind yoi go to port and then suddenly teleport ahead of you and start over again.

I agree OP its so odd what history people like to focus on and what they want to ignore to suit themselves.

[Destraex]

The US did did build at least one SOL during this period but chose to give it to France as compensation for some accident. Additionally they started to build or had plans for many more in the period and completed some more just within the time period of this game.. I.e. Around 1825. Ideally though I agree it would be great for national flavour to limit sols for the us and allow them and them alone constitutions that their ports and crafters can build. I would add that in comparison I do not believe pirates ever had the capability to build, crew or even need SOLs.

[Snoggy]

Newp, pirates tended to prefer faster, shallow draft ships, and I entirely agree that the pirates should be limited to smallerish craft and raiding methods... no line battles etc.

 

 

But, in the same vein, the 'Golden Age of Piracy' only peaked around 1726.... so throwing in ships designed 1812 and onward is far out of reach of plausibility. And really, there was only ever one Victory, one Santisima, one Constitution... the idea of popping into a battle with 25 of any of them is ludicrous.

 

 

In the end though, if the nation players want to start counting beans, you have to count all of them, not just the ones that suit you.

[maturin]

US had capability to build SoLs and did so. Pirates did not. Topic over?

[Snoggy]

Name one American first rate built between, well, let's say 1700 and 1800.

 

 

Actually, since the US Navy didn't really exist until 1794, and the united states until 1776... which is far beyond the age of piracy, the united states shouldn't even really be a nation at all.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Snoggy

[Vernon Merrill]

Who made you butt-hurt?  Oh, you're the guy who wanted Viking ships...  Nevermind.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Vernon Merrill

[Young]

lol what we do not get longboats for our upriver conquests !

[Rikard Frederiksen]

Name one American first rate built between, well, let's say 1700 and 1800.

 

 

Actually, since the US Navy didn't really exist until 1794, and the united states until 1776... which is far beyond the age of piracy, the united states shouldn't even really be a nation at all.

The timeline goes just beyond 1800, which is shown in the presence of the HMS Trincomalee which was launched in 1817.

[Destraex]

completely agree. But in this game it only has to happen within the scope of the games time period and it does. For pirates it was a very different story. It is like giving Nigerian pirates aircraft carriers today.

Name one American first rate built between, well, let's say 1700 and 1800.

 

 

Actually, since the US Navy didn't really exist until 1794, and the united states until 1776... which is far beyond the age of piracy, the united states shouldn't even really be a nation at all.

[Snoggy]

How can you mix a century worth of ships into one setting and call that accurate?

[Juan Alfonso]

How can you mix a century worth of ships into one setting and call that accurate?

 

Let us not forget that many vessels that were in service during the specified time period, such as the Santissima Trinidad & HMS Victory were indeed quite 'old' by the standards of the time period. The santi's keel was laid in 1769 and the Vic's in 1759, furthermore ships were constantly being re purposed or upgraded so therefore having a mix of older/newer vessels is completely plausible.

 

In regards to limiting the US navy to only a small number of SOLs, the fact is that whilst only a small number of american first-rates were indeed commissioned, they did have the plans & infrastructure to build ships of the desired calibre in this time period.   

[Domox]

 

 

But, in the same vein, the 'Golden Age of Piracy' only peaked around 1726.... so throwing in ships designed 1812 and onward is far out of reach of plausibility. And really, there was only ever one Victory, one Santisima, one Constitution... the idea of popping into a battle with 25 of any of them is ludicrous.

 Piracy along the gulf and west indies continued well into the late 1840s, enough to inspire several schooner designs to try and combat the problem. It's just that ~1726 was when the flagrant and oft romanticized pirates were afoot.

[Johny Reb]

Well, people need to understand that the average history buff also wants a playable game. Many were against teleports and only bend that bit of immersion in order to maintain the health of the game which is something that is very hard to do with such a big map and so few players. Lots of details are bent in the name of game play that most history players understand they must accept.

The problem with the pirates is that Sols for them and there ability to take ports entirely removes the feel of what a pirate was and is. Adding a SoL that the Americans had already shown an ability to create and build is a small stretch in comparison.

[Snoggy]

Having the blueprints and merely holding ports does not a navy make. If it did, we'd have pirate ships of the line and no one would say boo.

 

 

Fact of the matter is, the US navy didn't possess anything larger than the connie and essex, so limit them just as you plan to limit pirates. It's only fair and just and 'historically accurate'.

[Rebel Witch]

Here we go, people are going to want to enforce realistic ship restrictions on nations. if you do it to one why not to all others. the point is DONT DO IT TO ANYONE nation because ITS A GAME, not reality.

 

Fine do it to the nations or dont do it, it shouldnt matter because if this game does not allow for players to create their own nations to conquer ports and create their own small empires anyways, its gonna die like potbs even after its released. mark my words. just a prediction.

[Lytse Pier]

Pose limits and you will smother innovations.

--- Lytse Pier, Willemstad, 1716.

[Johny Reb]

Here we go, people are going to want to enforce realistic ship restrictions on nations. if you do it to one why not to all others. the point is DONT DO IT TO ANYONE nation because ITS A GAME, not reality.

 

Fine do it to the nations or dont do it, it shouldnt matter because if this game does not allow for players to create their own nations to conquer ports and create their own small empires anyways, its gonna die like potbs even after its released. mark my words. just a prediction.

But you miss the point of the argument completely. Its not at all about what ships the pirates have or don't have or the American's for that matter. Its about designing pirates to be pirates and not a nation. Look at how much grief the current pirate mechanics have created. The community vote had alliance/pirate mechanic rework as their first priority because both aspects of the game are ruining it and making it feel like an incomplete product for its stage of development. The pirates ability allows a group that was not a nation to act like one and the lack of official alliance mechanics prevent nations from acting like nations because rogue clans do what they want.

So, its about immersion and an honest feel in the game. Cookie cutter nations and pirates that all appear to be the same is already game breaking. Turning it into an eve with city states will crush it even farther.

[Johny Reb]

Fact of the matter is, the US navy didn't possess anything larger than the connie and essex, so limit them just as you plan to limit pirates. It's only fair and just and 'historically accurate'.

This has been said enough but since you must have missed previous conversations....

 

USS Independence:

Launched on 22 June 1814 in the Boston Navy Yard, she immediately took on guns and was stationed with frigate USS Constitution to protect the approaches to Boston Harbor. Flying the broad pennant of Commodore William Bainbridge, and under command of Captain William M. Crane, she led her squadron from Boston on 3 July 1815 to deal with piratical acts of the Barbary States against American merchant commerce.

Peace had been enforced by a squadron under Stephen Decatur by the time Independence arrived in the Mediterranean. But she led an impressive show of American naval might before Barbary ports that encouraged them to keep the peace treaties concluded. Having served adequate notice of rising U.S. seapower and added to the prestige of the Navy and the Nation, Independence returned to Newport, Rhode Island on 15 November 1815. She continued to wear the pennant of Commodore Bainbridge at Boston until 29 November 1819, then was flagship of Commodore John Shaw until placed in ordinary in 1822.

 

USS America:

On 20 November 1776, the Continental Congress authorized the construction of three 74-gun ships of the line. One of these was America, laid down in May 1777 in the shipyard of John Langdon on Rising Castle Island (now Badger's Island) in Kittery, Maine, across the Piscataqua River from Portsmouth, New Hampshire.

 

USS Columbus,

The second Columbus was one of nine, 74-gun warships authorized by Congress on 29 April 1816. The second Columbus, rated a 74-gun ship-of-the-line, was launched 1 March 1819 by Washington Navy Yard and commissioned 7 September 1819, Master Commandant J. H. Elton in command. (SL: t. 2,480; l. 191'10"; b. 53'6"; dr. 26'6"; cpl. 780; a. 68 32-pdr., 24 42-pdr. car.)

 

USS Franklin (Same age as the Trincomolee)

The third Franklin, a ship-of-the-line, built in 1815 under the supervision of Samuel Humpherys, was the first vessel to be laid down at the Philadelphia Navy Yard. Built in 1815, she was the first vessel to be laid down at the Philadelphia Navy Yard. Franklin sailed on her first cruise on 14 October 1817, when under the command of Master Commandant H. E. Ballard she proceeded from Philadelphia to the Mediterranean. She carried the Hon. Richard Rush, U.S. Minister to England, to his post. Subsequently she was designated flagship of the Mediterranean Squadron, cruising on that station until March 1820.

 

All these sailed within the time frame of this game which extends to 1820. At least three of them were launched in the same year as the Trinc or earlier.

[Æthlstan]

Pirates didnt sail SOLs because they usually did not have the crew to handle such large ships AND take prizes. A frigate can handle losing a prize crew without much loss in combat ability.  74 guns is a lot of guns and requires a ton of crew. The sails require a ton of crew. All that crew needs massive amounts of provisions, and the pirates didnt exactly have royal coffers and infrastructure to lean on, and would never be able to develop such things in an area chock full of anti-pirate colonies. Even if they took land, they wouldnt be able to hold it, and the only reason why they held on to territory for a short period in the Bahamas is because it wasnt exactly worth much strategically or economically.

 

Let us also remember that this game is BASED ON history, again, BASED ON. The US was in no rush to build 1st rates because it didnt forsee any large scale naval engagements in its future. HOWEVER, if war was to become likely with any nation, the US would have prepared for it. It is why you see the construction of SOLs around the time of the war of 1812. A need for SOLs arose because being able to defend against Britain's navy in future engagements was paramount. The USS Pennsylvania was designed in 1816, but due to tensions with the British largely coming to an end, its keel wasnt laid until 1821, and it was intermittently constructed over the course of 2 decades because there was no great need for it. IF a powerful blue water navy challenged the US, say, in 1817, the USS Pennsylvania would have been constructed, launched, and commissioned before 1820 to face the new threat. 

 

As the US had the capability to construct these ships, it just didnt because there wasnt a need for them historically, these ships can and should be usable by the US. This game is a form of ALTERNATE HISTORY, and as part of that, the US is entering wars with powerful blue water navies it would have to construct SOLs to combat.

 

This is why I support constructing ships designed prior to 1820 in their original design configuration.

[maturin]

USS Independence has a greater burthen tonnage than HMS Victory.

 

So the US could build First Rates.

 

Oh, and AFAIK Caribbean pirates never built so much as a rowboat.

[BungeeLemming]

..as well as no nation ever supplied as much SoLs as the playerbase can build in 7 days.

 

Also the americans have the "USS America lanched" in 1782, a 74 gunner.

The President class ships were the size of a 3rd rate and cost a shitload of money and materials.

[Cragger]

Since we're all on the 'remove pirate SoL' bandwagon, I believe the United States should also be added to that list. Given the time period, the US Navy never possessed a single Ship of the line. In fact the biggest and best ships the US Navy had are already in-game, the Essex and the Constitution.

 

 

Since we're going to be all 'historically accurate' and such, I think this is an entirely reasonable request.

 

U.S. Navy never possessed a single Ship of the Line you say? Perhaps you should research just a tad before making that statement.

 

Game time frame is up to 1830

 

United States Ships of the line constructed and commissioned:

 

U.S.S. Independence (18-14) 90 - 32lb guns

U.S.S. Washington (1814) 74-? guns

U.S.S. Franklin (1815) 74 - 32lb long guns and carronades

U.S.S. Columbus (1819) 74 - 32lb long guns and 42lb carronades

U.S.S. Delaware (1820) 74 - 32lb long guns and carronades

U.S.S. Ohio (1820) 74 - 32lb long guns and carronades

U.S.S. North Carolina (1820) 74- 42lb and 32lb long guns

 

 

[Mrdoomed]

Well pirates never went to a ship dealer amd bought new ships with cash or credit either so we need to remove the abilty for pirates to buy ships amd make sure they can only use captured ships. Also as far as records that ive seen no ports gave free basic cutters to any pirates just for asking therefor that needs to be taken away as well.

Pirates should only get captured ships , unless they get good at that then they should not be allowed to capture ships and should only be allowed to float on driftwood and have coconuts to use as cannons, well unless they get good with that then.......