Positional reinforcements and ROE

[Quineloe]

1.5 was a huge burden on keeping conquest fleets together that got repeatedly tagged.

Especially since your Attack failed due to BR difference code doesn't seem to work properly.

I'd rather it stay out for now.

[Captain]

1.5 was a huge burden on keeping conquest fleets together that got repeatedly tagged.

Especially since your Attack failed due to BR difference code doesn't seem to work properly.

I'd rather it stay out for now.

 

Ya, the attack fail due to BR thing seems to be kind of wonky, sometimes it works, sometimes enemy can tag one ship out of a big armada, sometimes a few. 

 

I would prefer there was no BR restriction at all, I'd also prefer the join timer on battles was longer. 

 

Both are gamey mechanics that people will game. 

[Black Knight the first]

Ya, the attack fail due to BR thing seems to be kind of wonky, sometimes it works, sometimes enemy can tag one ship out of a big armada, sometimes a few. 

 

I would prefer there was no BR restriction at all, I'd also prefer the join timer on battles was longer. 

 

Both are gamey mechanics that people will game.

This guy knows what's up. I honestly didn't mind the longer timer. Fought plenty of battles in my favor and against. It was paet of the game. Getting ganked in a sandbox is just part of this thing. Someone'll always figure out a way to make it happen. Some of my favorite encounters worked out this way- got a lot of good laughs at my expense, and a lot of cavalry riding to save the day.

[DEK]

Meanwhile we can suggest bringing 1.5x limit temporarily to make positional reinforcements bearable. 

 

Don't do it.... don't kill game again plz. If few PVE players can't, that does not figure.

 

1,5x BR Limit Enabled - 1200-1400 captains online max

1,5x BR Limit Disabled - back to 1500-1700. Am i the only one who sees a pattern here?

Edited April 26, 2016 by DEK

[Blackjack Morgan]

 

Don't do it.... don't kill game again plz. If few PVE players can't, that does not figure.

 

1,5x BR Limit Enabled - 1200-1400 captains online max

1,5x BR Limit Disabled - back to 1500-1700. Am i the only one who sees a pattern here?

 

 

Don't say PVE players because that's just laughable....I do slightly more than ZERO PVE and I will say that a temporary 1.5 BR mechanic is better than the slightly steamy pile of dung that we have currently. Half the "PvP" I hear everyone talking about in nation and global chat revolves around port hiding or waiting around till 1 side feels safe enough to engage the other side because they have more ships. It is an absolute JOKE. People complaining about the 1.5 BR mechanic because they might get "ganked" in a 2v1 and they can't have their buddies pile out of a port to help them....pathetic. I'd gladly take a 2v1 over this current system of either getting surrounded by 5 guys or this wack a mole port garbage. Before this change I sailed around mostly in smaller ships because 99% of the people would run if it were on equal terms yet everyone with 20 posts is a hard core pvp'er calling out others for being carebears? How about everyone talking smack sail around by their lonesome a bit in the MT, St.Nic, Baracoa  triangle in something other than a speed rigged failboat and let me know how it goes....oh and let's all make sure we have our in game names posted so we can matchup forum names.....

[DEK]

If you wanna always fair fight you can go to World of Warship or War Thunder - there always 15x15.

[fox2run]

Omg. Please listen to PvPers. Most plp don't want any limits. We want options to fight in OW. No limits, no restrictions.

 

If you go back to that silly pve rule, this game will die.

 

Iron men on wooden ships, please.

Edited April 26, 2016 by fox2run

[Neptune]

Funny thing is here, a good portion of the people who want the BR system have many hours in PvP, most likely way more than you and are vets. Seems it's mostly newer people to the game that come and say people who want BR system are PVE carebares, when the truth is some of them have done way more PvP than them before the game even came to steam for seatrials.

 

Edited April 27, 2016 by Acadian44

[fox2run]

The 5 min. timer was good as you where able to help fellow guys in trouble... A distress call in nations chat - and you where going into action. After the rule where given up the complains about "ganking" got worse and the devs wanted to stop this. Unfortunately they use the wrong medication as they constrain the possibility to aid and reinforce players in dire straits which leads to even fewer options to help traders, lone wolfs etc. In the end youll land on 1 vs 1 ship battles only with a BR of 1:1. And thats plain stupid.

 

Given the size of the world and the shrinking player base (especially after the 1.5 rule) a 5 min join timer would be preferable. Most times you cant come to rescue and provide "anti-gank" measures. 

 

Anti-ganking is IMHO best done by clans, players and nations themselves instead of troublesome and constraining rules done by devs. 

[Niels Terkildsen]

You could just take the land out and go to the build before its addition that didn't have positional entry or BR limits. You can bring the land back when you have the whole package right. It's not like it's so valuable to have land that we need both positional entry issues and 1.5BR rules issues for the sake of it.

 

I think this would be the best temporary solution.

[Burca]

 Meanwhile we can suggest bringing 1.5x limit temporarily to make positional reinforcements bearable. 

 

Please don't. Going out for patrol with my group and not being able to join a battle due to BR difference is more annoying than getting surrounded.

 

Not to mention that if somebody cannot join the battle then he can be ganked easily. This 1,5 BR diff provides more ganks than preventing imo.

 

I would prefer the old system then.

[fox2run]

The 1.5 was a mere disaster IMO.

[Scout]

Have reinforce join in only on the stern side of the one who has the tag and in the same distance as the circle is that will give the one who is defending a fighting change depending on how good the original tag was.

Don´t think there is need for the 1.5 br but the way it is now the spider web spawns are more the issue then any thing ellse

[Eishen]

I think 1.5 should not be back if it is not to stay , not because some1 loves or hates it ,   but if it is not going to be in the end,  seems more useful having the system most resembling the "proposed final" status to test how thinks work in conjunction .  We all know now it does pair well with reinforcement position , lets test forward

[Arsilon]

The current tech obviously allows you to track location of all ships within circle during initial tag so they are spawned in correct location in battle instance.

 

The current tech also allows you to track location of reinforcing ships relative to the outside of the circle (they must sail outside of it if they are already inside) so they can be spawned in the proper direction of the battle inside the battle instance.

 

The difference seems only to be when that check is performed.  For the first group the check is done when the tag timer reaches zero.  For the second group the check is done when they click the join battle button (assuming the battle is not already closed).

 

Could you not just perform the position check for both groups at the initial tag?  You still have the tagging circle but you now would have an imaginary (heck you could even draw it) reinforcement circle that would cover all ships currently in range to reinforce if they want to sail and click into the battle.  There would be additional computing required as there may be many ships in range that you would need to track potentially unnecessarily.  I do not know whether this is a deal breaker based on what you have on the back end to keep track of all this.

 

If this does not break your back end, you could set that range to deal with whatever time compression issues you need to resolve (how far away is reasonable for a ship to be able to sail and still join the battle even if spawned farther away in the battle instance?).  You would also only do the check for ships currently visible on the map.  This would solve the hiding in battle screen and port hiding issues as well.

 

I  obviously do not know how you have chosen to code what is already there but from a design perspective it appears the elements you need are already in place.  If this is the solution you are already proposing to code and it will take time, great.  But if not, maybe some food for thought.

 

Regardless, I would still rather wait for a good solution than trade one bad solution for another that is clearly debateable whether it is a 'less bad' or 'more bad' interim solution.

[Carljcharles]

Please do NOT return the 1.5BR. that was a disaster.

 

Just leave it off until the battle mechanic is fixed. Given the backlash over its original introduction I cant believe it was even suggested as a 'temporary' measure.

 

We swarmed a cheeky pirate at the weekend hunting pray out side our National capital and he still managed to repeatedly escaped with us abusing the position re-enforcements. So just leave it alone for now and focus on the real fix.

 

Really cant wait for this to be improved.

[fox2run]

The 5 min timer gave fun and large battles - and the posibility to help friends that got outgunned... I dont know why they left that. It was a good anti-gank measure and you had the feeling that you could enter battles and help the nation. Now its more like a personal 1 vs 2-3 or 4 ships. Pretty boring compared to when I purchased the game.... I would say the value of the game is about halfed since then....

 

I want 50% return pls. ;-)

Edited April 26, 2016 by fox2run

[Isink A Lot]

 

It is posted intentionally to get more information.    Stay on topic please and don't get distracted. As we all know forum polls are useless and anyone can click yes or no having no clue what is going on. Developers made this post for a reason. Clearly larger crowd supports devs suggestion and I do as well. 

Still no link to said poll? Isn't all of this forum "International" as the internet is by design international? And my post was most defiantly "on topic". Did you even read it? As a Moderator I expect...... no I demand that you do not use hyperbole to try and prove your point of view. If you can not use facts as they are without made up numbers then maybe your status as a "moderator" should be reviewed.

[Enraged Ewok]

The main issue I see with positional reinforcements (that has been brought up multiple times by others in this thread, but I'll offer my 2 cent and explanation) is that players not immediately in the circle can sail to the far side and get in to cut off the escape. I think it would be a good idea to experiment with larger tag and battle circles, say about 1/3 larger to start with, though in my mind 50% larger could also work.

 

What I think this would accomplish would be preventing late-comers who either weren't anywhere near the circle from sailing to an advantageous position to cut off escape before joining, as well as ensuring those players that do sail across to join from the other side are farther away. This gives a wider avenue of escape for the gankee, and more time to fight and disable the "tackler"  (I hate this term) before the reinforcements can make  it into range, but doesn't prevent the dogpile into the battle instance and the splitting up of groups that was occurring when sloppy station keeping reared its ugly head with the 1.5 BR rule.

[Bach]

Don't say PVE players because that's just laughable....I do slightly more than ZERO PVE and I will say that a temporary 1.5 BR mechanic is better than the slightly steamy pile of dung that we have currently. Half the "PvP" I hear everyone talking about in nation and global chat revolves around port hiding or waiting around till 1 side feels safe enough to engage the other side because they have more ships. It is an absolute JOKE. People complaining about the 1.5 BR mechanic because they might get "ganked" in a 2v1 and they can't have their buddies pile out of a port to help them....pathetic. I'd gladly take a 2v1 over this current system of either getting surrounded by 5 guys or this wack a mole port garbage. Before this change I sailed around mostly in smaller ships because 99% of the people would run if it were on equal terms yet everyone with 20 posts is a hard core pvp'er calling out others for being carebears? How about everyone talking smack sail around by their lonesome a bit in the MT, St.Nic, Baracoa triangle in something other than a speed rigged failboat and let me know how it goes....oh and let's all make sure we have our in game names posted so we can matchup forum names.....

So basically you took one word "PVE" out of all he was posting and ignored the rest.

Follow me on this. I don't care how your personal enjoyment is effected over mine. You are not the most important person playing this game. No matter how you personally feel the quality of your individual fights are, if a rule change results in loss of 1/3rd of the player population it can start a downward spiral in population effects. Now since you like 1v1.5 you might just be the last one effected by the population drop. Lucky short sighted you. But anyone who signed on this game to play a war simulation is screwed as soon as the population starts dropping. Then they leave and eventually, like in POTBS, your butt will be parked off one port arranging fights with the small player base that's left. If you want to see what that's like then just sign on to POTBS for a week. They are at that stage right now.

Edited April 26, 2016 by Bach

[maturin]

 

 

The main issue I see with positional reinforcements (that has been brought up multiple times by others in this thread, but I'll offer my 2 cent and explanation) is that players not immediately in the circle can sail to the far side and get in to cut off the escape. 

I just thought of a partial solution here:

 

Whenever you enter the battle circle, that's where you will spawn in the instance. Touch the circle and your entrance position is recorded, regardless of your position when you press Enter.

 

That way, if you want to encircle someone, you will have to take the long way around the circle, avoiding its perimeter. Combined with a slowly-growing circle, this will make entrapment very difficult.

[Blackjack Morgan]

So basically you took one word "PVE" out of all he was posting and ignored the rest.

Follow me on this. I don't care how your personal enjoyment is effected over mine. You are not the most important person playing this game. No matter how you personally feel the quality of your individual fights are, if a rule change results in loss of 1/3rd of the player population it can start a downward spiral in population effects. Now since you like 1v1.5 you might just be the last one effected by the population drop. Lucky short sighted you. But anyone who signed on this game to play a war simulation is screwed as soon as the population starts dropping. Then they leave and eventually, like in POTBS, your butt will be parked off one port arranging fights with the small player base that's left. If you want to see what that's like then just sign on to POTBS for a week. They are at that stage right now.

 

No offense intended but debating this topic with you is like going round and round in a circle getting nowhere. Having no BR mechanic combined with the positional reinforcements the way they are currently implemented is bad....simple as that. The discussion of the 1.5 BR mechanic was to be a temporary one since they can't change the current code....at least that is what they are telling us. Personally speaking the 1.5 BR mechanic probably does not need to be around when they finalize the new engagement mechanic to test. But I simply do not understand how anyone would argue that allowing slower ships that are way behind a pursued ship to magically spawn in front of the target is ok? 

 

As far as the personal attacks and dribble you were spouting toward me I don't think it is very fair. If my opinion differs from yours that does not imply that I feel superior to you or anyone else. These forums are for discussing our opinions on game mechanics and providing feedback. Anyone who is not open to varying opinions or point of views during TESTING than maybe testing is not your cup of tea? 

[Bach]

No offense intended but debating this topic with you is like going round and round in a circle getting nowhere. Having no BR mechanic combined with the positional reinforcements the way they are currently implemented is bad....simple as that. The discussion of the 1.5 BR mechanic was to be a temporary one since they can't change the current code....at least that is what they are telling us. Personally speaking the 1.5 BR mechanic probably does not need to be around when they finalize the new engagement mechanic to test. But I simply do not understand how anyone would argue that allowing slower ships that are way behind a pursued ship to magically spawn in front of the target is ok?

As far as the personal attacks and dribble you were spouting toward me I don't think it is very fair. If my opinion differs from yours that does not imply that I feel superior to you or anyone else. These forums are for discussing our opinions on game mechanics and providing feedback. Anyone who is not open to varying opinions or point of views during TESTING than maybe testing is not your cup of tea?

My posted suggestion is just on the previous page. Simple roll back to the build before they added the land in the battles and you don't have positional reinforcement OR 1.5 BR.

It is by far the easiest temporary solution to keep everyone happy. Especially since the 1.5 BR rule didn't really effect positional entry anyway.

if things seem circular it's because in the end you have to come back to the truth. You asked us to test this new patch and we did.

It didn't fix hidden battle entries

It didn't stop ganking

The positional system was prone to abuse

The land was good eye candy and occasionally affected the battles. Some needed to turn down graphics settings to battle.

It did greatly hamper rescue pvp.

It split groups up for an hour or more at a time.

It allowed gankers to abuse the rule to hunt right next to defended national capitals.

It also allowed lone wolf or duo style pvp players to roam the seas without fear of getting overwhelmed when running into larger groups. Not a bad thing but only favors some players at other's expense.

It frequently prevented mission runners going to and from missions from getting help when attacked.

It stopped most of the casual large scale open world pvp combats.

It also promotes the use of fail fit boats.

Far more negatives than positives. The one group most helped by the new rules are lone and duo hunters. I suspect this style of PVPrs tend to champion the 1.5 rule in the forums most. I don't believe most of the forum posters here regularly get ganked. But the worst of it all. We did what you asked and tested it. We gave you the results. You repealed the rule and gave us hope you were listening to us. Then at the first chance to go back to it and with a weak excuse, as it only marginally effects positional ganks, you dash all those hopes that the testing mattered. In the end it appears to only be all about non-team oriented pvp styles.

Edited April 27, 2016 by Bach

[Sir Robert Calder]

1.5x system is terrible, I'd rather have no circle than the limitation again. If anyone in a 1st Rate fleet makes a mistake by leaving the combat results screen early, there will be nothing my comrades or I can do to help him. Countering screening fleets becomes pointless because players who seek an easy frigate kill or two won't be allowed to stack up 20v1 to clear a path for 1st Rates. Attacking seal clubbers outside your capital becomes impossible. 20v1 ganks still occur as people abuse the BR system yet again by just stacking Yachts and Cutters.

 

There's a good chance I wouldn't even be able to help the people who get "ganked" and then clamor in this thread for BR limits. Why? So they can still be ganked by 3 Trincomalees instead of 10? The result is the same when you sail alone/unprotected and it's naive to assume anything different unless your opponents are incredibly slow in the head.

[mouse of war]

Please don't bring back the 1.5 - not even temporarily.