Positional reinforcements and ROE

[Bach]

If the PVP Feats regarding Lordship are tailored to simply have a negative impact towards these tactics, meaning a 3v5 has decisive positive Victory Points and a 6v2 rewards negative or next to none, then many might ( keyword: might ) split the hunt groups into elements of twos, like in a flight sim.

I don't think it will motivate them to split up their group. The issue is that it generally takes anywhere from 30min to an hour to find a pvp fight. Once you find a fight the closer it is to fair the longer it tends to last. So after sailing potentially an hour a player could then end up sitting outside a battle for an hour more. 2hrs of game play for zero pvp action. It's not like it's their fault that the fight they happened to find is off balance. They can't control whom they find. There is no amount of rewards we can likely offer most players to make that situation acceptable.

Small and large battles remains the quickest method to get a fair fight in a reasonable amount of time. Expecting them on the OW, given sail times and battle times of NA, just isn't going to be practical.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Bach

[Hethwill]

Maybe so. As Blackjack Morgan plainly says so the game is tailored, in rewards, towards that kind of game.

 

But regarding a more true to form ROE action, effective action, where rewards are victory points towards true rewards it is good to know how it would be perceived back in the day.

 

One blatant occurrence I came upon, will get the details later when I have the book in my hands, was an engagement of two frigates versus a corsair frigate, near a well known corsair lair near Madagascar.

Both frigates engage the corsair with different mentality, one goes in with iron and guts, the other simply keeps safety as a choice. Eventually the corsair got its due.

The captain of the frigate which was too far from effective fire into the enemy was stripped of his command ( although he was later to return to service at half pay ) and never served at sea again.

The other captain became a superb navy officer.

 

I do not like the 1.5 BR rule myself nor do I like the present system.

[fox2run]

5 min timer makes the chance of finding a battle twice as good as now.

 

food for thought

 

why did they leave that in the first place?

[surfimp]

This could be solved very easily by steadily growing the join circle (at say 10 kts, maybe more) as soon as the battle starts and until it closes.  Not joining immediately and instead sailing through the circle would then come with a large distance penalty in the instance that directly compensates for the additional OW compressed time.  It would also mean increased risk of not making it to the far edge before the battle closes.  In general it would be better to join at the start or nearest edge, but reinforcements would still be able to join at distance and from the appropriate direction relative to OW (because a reinforcement might fairly be coming from the other side, rather than sailing through the circle to exploit).   This would also solve any problems with land, because as soon as the circle grows to eclipse land, no player would be able to join from the location since they would not be able access the edge of the circle.

I really like this idea and think it could make for an excellent mechanic. When the player crosses into the circle, their position within the battle instance will be "set" based on their distance at the moment from the center of the battle (i.e. the attacker's ship). Regardless of how long the joiner takes to click "Join battle as _____", the position where they crossed into the battle circle will be their starting position.

That would completely resolve the issue of positional reinforcements. In theory a really fast ship could try to sail around the edge of the growing circle to get to a somewhat more advantageous position, but that would most likely prove to be an edge case.

Good suggestion, came here to post basically the same idea.

[mikawa]

Let's take a look at the battle circle as a kind of "call to weapons". I like the idea of a growing circle together with the fact that you join a battle when entering the circle edge very much. It makes sailing round the circle into a better position a bit more difficult and entering the battle more easy. That is exactly what we need! Additionally I would like to propose that the distance in the battle instance should be slightly reduced (I think at this moment the ship distances in instances are too far comparing to the OW distance and keeping the enemy tagged is slighty too hard).

[Eishen]

Let's take a look at the battle circle as a kind of "call to weapons". I like the idea of a growing circle together with the fact that you join a battle when entering the circle edge very much. It makes sailing round the circle into a better position a bit more difficult and entering the battle more easy. That is exactly what we need! Additionally I would like to propose that the distance in the battle instance should be slightly reduced (I think at this moment the ship distances in instances are too far comparing to the OW distance and keeping the enemy tagged is slighty too hard).

 

Agree, but as repeated multiple times "keeping the enemy tagged" only by fire instead of a combination with distance , and its reduction/increase  can be the real problem over  ship initial distance .

[mikawa]

 

"keeping the enemy tagged" only by fire

Full agreement on this. It works fine so far so why change it?

[Enraged Ewok]

Full agreement on this. It works fine so far so why change it?

 

My issue with that mechanic is that it only works fine for ships with chasers, leaving many otherwise great ships useless without a buddy to tag for them, or perfect wind and land in the battle. It pains me that my Essex has only ever seen a fight in the duel room in part due to this.

[Scout]

Well here is a cheep idea to limit the ganking around nation ports have the same radius around the towns where there is no timer on join like it is now on around our capital.

So only the nation that owns the port can enter battle after the 2 min timer.

The circle we have at capitals is good and to use this with out making it unfair make a  smaller circle around regional capitals and even smaller a round normal towns. 

[fox2run]

To hell with realism. Games are not realistic. Thats why they are games. Dont misunderstand me. But you dont buy a game called "Naval Action" and then use hours and hours and hours with little or no action at all.

 

Please make a world where it is EASY to engage in PVP. 

 

If OW is used then make it EASY to join an ongoing battle in OW. 

 

Now joining a battle is almost impossible. You need to chase plp for 30 min or more. Yesterday I used an hour in front of a harbour just waiting for enemies to come. Two came but they sailed faster... no action... just...boredom...

 

One hour of wasted gameplay. Its not realistic. Its just a broken game. 

[tatannn]

next time don't wait them to come and go roaming in the ennemie territory.

It's a sandbox game it's your job to create your action not other to create yours

Edited May 24, 2016 by tatannn

[Long Beard]

To hell with realism. Games are not realistic. Thats why they are games. Dont misunderstand me. But you dont buy a game called "Naval Action" and then use hours and hours and hours with little or no action at all.

 

Please make a world where it is EASY to engage in PVP. 

 

If OW is used then make it EASY to join an ongoing battle in OW. 

 

Now joining a battle is almost impossible. You need to chase plp for 30 min or more. Yesterday I used an hour in front of a harbour just waiting for enemies to come. Two came but they sailed faster... no action... just...boredom...

 

One hour of wasted gameplay. Its not realistic. Its just a broken game. 

 

However on the flip side if it was you who was being chased you'd be thankful.

 

OW PVP has to give the ability to escape.  If you are solo, then you need to rethink your ship AND your prey.  It's always going to be harder to catch a ship if you are solo.  

 

I disagree that joining a battle is impossible. I was out yesterday (solo) and managed to get myself into 5 encounters in around 1 hour of sailing. 3 got away (trader lynx - which I knew I'd never catch unless player was not experienced) and the other two I caught. In my case I try to balance the ability to catch with the ability to escape. If I set up for better chance to catch, I would lose the ability to escape so I just accept some people are going to get away, but that's fine. That's how it should be.

If you want to guarantee always catching, then you need to make sure you are with some friends and set up your fleet to include a tackler.

The OW shouldn't be about forcing your targets to fight. It should be about tactics. Cat and mouse were your ship and setup vs his ship and setup should matter. 

[fox2run]

next time don't wait them to come and go roaming in the ennemie territory.

It's a sandbox game it's your job to create your action not other to create yours

Been there done that - it takes ages...

[Long Beard]

Been there done that - it takes ages...

 

Set up free town outpost in enemy waters. TP back to home base. Cap trade ship, send your ship to said outpost, TP back. Create a few around the map and you have instant ability to get to enemy waters fast. Fixed.

[EL LOCO]

Agree 100%   5 minute rule was great.   

a recent example of a complete waste.  I am traveling from tumbado to La Habana in an Indiaman (pvp1).  I am within sights of Habana (just before Muirel) and I get tagged by 1 of 4 pirate players waiting.    They get me in battle along with 2 minor npc friendlies.   1 Spanish player noticed but couldn't help me in time within 2 minutes. 

I then have to force to fight to lose .  I was carrying 8000 coal and 20 high grade notes. (don't ask me why I carried those).  When I spawned there were at least 15 friendly players looking for the pirates but the pirates logged out or just waiting on battle over screen for a while.

 

This is a complete gank.   If it was 5 minutes...at least 1 or 2 of friendlies from Habana could have made it to my defence. 

Gunfire on the openwater is quite loud and this can be seen as a signal for any ship in harbor to investigate.  But since the battle was closed at 2 minutes..I was ganked.

 

I was bout to quit the game entirely..  Not because I lost my ship but because here I am within 5 miles from my capital with many players about yet they cannot help.

I lost over 12 million gold.  

This is not fair.  No timers or at least back to the 5 timer limit.  I propose what is now but after 2 minutes..the circle gets larger hence any potential reinfocements come in farther.

 

 

 

[akd]

General consensus is that traders cannot be ganked (often there is zero chance of ever catching a trader without a big numbers advantage). I bet next time you won't try to transport 20 notes without an escort.

[Blackjack Morgan]

Agree 100%   5 minute rule was great.   

a recent example of a complete waste.  I am traveling from tumbado to La Habana in an Indiaman (pvp1).  I am within sights of Habana (just before Muirel) and I get tagged by 1 of 4 pirate players waiting.    They get me in battle along with 2 minor npc friendlies.   1 Spanish player noticed but couldn't help me in time within 2 minutes. 

I then have to force to fight to lose .  I was carrying 8000 coal and 20 high grade notes. (don't ask me why I carried those).  When I spawned there were at least 15 friendly players looking for the pirates but the pirates logged out or just waiting on battle over screen for a while.

 

This is a complete gank.   If it was 5 minutes...at least 1 or 2 of friendlies from Habana could have made it to my defence. 

Gunfire on the openwater is quite loud and this can be seen as a signal for any ship in harbor to investigate.  But since the battle was closed at 2 minutes..I was ganked.

 

I was bout to quit the game entirely..  Not because I lost my ship but because here I am within 5 miles from my capital with many players about yet they cannot help.

I lost over 12 million gold.  

This is not fair.  No timers or at least back to the 5 timer limit.  I propose what is now but after 2 minutes..the circle gets larger hence any potential reinfocements come in farther.

 

I'm sure that sucked but you really should part of the blame between yourself and your nation. If they have 4 ships parked outside your capital and nobody said anything or got a group together to deal with them that is kind of a problem. Even in real life if somehow someone in port could see your battle it would take them most likely hours to make ready a ship...get it underway...then sail to your battle....I'm guessing your fight lasted less then an hour and they simply never would have made it there in real life. 

 

I do find it slightly surprising how many people sail large quantities of cargo completely unescorted then get mad when they get caught. They do have smaller trader ships that can be much more difficult to catch if you are worried about the prospect of being jumped as well. At a certain point though the individual has to take some responsibilities when they find themselves in these bad scenarios. I find myself in 4v1's and 5v1's a fair amount of time but I understand it's because where I choose to sail.  

[mikawa]

 

I do find it slightly surprising how many people sail large quantities of cargo completely unescorted then get mad when they get caught.

This has nothing to do with the complaint anyway. Of course, you should not sail unprotected, but the thing is what happens if someone is in sore distress? I was also in similar situation. Whether none of my fellows actually wanted to join me or they came too late I can only guess ... I think the 2 mins timer is quite okay, but the signal of a player battle start (I proposed this a few weeks ago) should be significantly improved, so that nearby players can directly see what happens, instead of having the victim to type nervously into nation chat. Sometimes you simply don't care for these battle signs, because they pop out of nowhere when people begin starting these AI battles around you. Notifying friendlies of a player ship in distress should be as simple as a single keystroke. (quite historical: a flag hissed that you need help)

Edited June 7, 2016 by mikawa

[Blackjack Morgan]

This has nothing to do with the complaint anyway. Of course, you should not sail unprotected, but the thing is what happens if someone is in sore distress? I was also in similar situation. Whether none of my fellows actually wanted to join me or they came too late I can only guess ... I think the 2 mins timer is quite okay, but the signal of a player battle start (I proposed this a few weeks ago) should be significantly improved, so that nearby players can directly see what happens, instead of having the victim to type nervously into nation chat. Sometimes you simply don't care for these battle signs, because they pop out of nowhere when people begin starting these AI battles around you. Notifying friendlies of a player ship in distress should be as simple as a single keystroke. (quite historical: a flag hissed that you need help)

 

Why should there be some sort of special marker signifying a player battle instead of an ai one? An extra crutch for players who are not paying attention to their surroundings? Do we really need to have a fireworks display or a special neon colored sign above pvp fights? If people are not scanning the horizon while they are sailing and paying attention it seems to me that is nobody's fault besides theirs. Plus all most people will do if they see it is a pvp fight is join if their side has the advantage and sail away if doesn't. And about the "historical" flag thing for ship needing help....well pretty sure if they were close enough to see that flag they probably could see the battle taking place anyway....which also would have meant they were close enough to have joined early on if they wanted to.

[mikawa]

You often have people who don't care and begin PVE battles where a whole fleet is waiting for a PVP battle to end. I'm tired of checking continuously all the battle signs around me to check for PVE or PVP. I didn't ask for neon signs but for a slighty other colour (might be silver, gold, black for example) for better distinguishing. And it could happen that the battle is out of sight (e.g. behind the edge of an island) so colouring would help here a lot to get as fast as possible there to join.

[Bulwyf]

The two minute timer is totally inadequate, people can be in sight of the battle, fairly close or even grouped with the targeted player and not enter the combat in that time. Anyone who can see the battle or would be able to see it within the two minutes should be able to enter it as there is zero reason why they wouldn't be able too. The present system is allowing gank squads to come right into heavily trafficked enemy areas and operate with virtual impunity,  the more so since there is the ridiculous log off in post battle screen scam happening. These people are only interested in ganking smaller groups or merchants who cant fight back. 

Why should there be some sort of special marker signifying a player battle instead of an ai one? An extra crutch for players who are not paying attention to their surroundings? Do we really need to have a fireworks display or a special neon colored sign above pvp fights? If people are not scanning the horizon while they are sailing and paying attention it seems to me that is nobody's fault besides theirs. Plus all most people will do if they see it is a pvp fight is join if their side has the advantage and sail away if doesn't. And about the "historical" flag thing for ship needing help....well pretty sure if they were close enough to see that flag they probably could see the battle taking place anyway....which also would have meant they were close enough to have joined early on if they wanted to.

 At present being able to see the battle is absolutely no guarantee of being able to join and unless your right on top of the battle you wont be able to get there in time.

[Æthlstan]

I'm sure that sucked but you really should part of the blame between yourself and your nation. If they have 4 ships parked outside your capital and nobody said anything or got a group together to deal with them that is kind of a problem. Even in real life if somehow someone in port could see your battle it would take them most likely hours to make ready a ship...get it underway...then sail to your battle....I'm guessing your fight lasted less then an hour and they simply never would have made it there in real life. 

 

I do find it slightly surprising how many people sail large quantities of cargo completely unescorted then get mad when they get caught. They do have smaller trader ships that can be much more difficult to catch if you are worried about the prospect of being jumped as well. At a certain point though the individual has to take some responsibilities when they find themselves in these bad scenarios. I find myself in 4v1's and 5v1's a fair amount of time but I understand it's because where I choose to sail.  

 

In the modern navy, we can get underway in less than 48 hours and thats with all our modern technologies we need to carefully start up. We can sail with a skeleton crew and still be effective if necessary.

 

Wooden ships require maintenance, yes, but they also require less intimate knowledge of the ship to operate. If you really needed to you could shout out on the docks "HEY ENEMY SHIPS ARE APPROACHING, WE ARE LEAVING IN 15 MINUTES TO GIVE THEM BATTLE" and you would get enough sailors to crew your ship. You arent making a voyage, you are going to war. Careful preparation is thrown out the window