Remove 1.5BR anti-gank programming

[Brogsitter]

+1

[maturin]

 

A good Englishman gets jumped by 10 ships outside of KPR because they blobbed in a circle and I can't assist him because the BR difference is too skewed?

 

Rubbish. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, Mr. Prater, but I'll be damned if a BR system says I can't help my comrade-in-arms. Frankly, I preferred the previous system which completely excluded this BR difference garbage because if anything this has helped gankers even more!

I'm pretty sure you're misunderstanding him. Prater was talking about reinforcing the stronger side. You can always reinforce the 100 BR side against the 1000 BR side while the timer is open. How does limiting reinforcements to the inferior side make any sense?

[ITFHunter]

Suggestion 2

everyone can join a battle for the first 30 seconds of a battle, then your new BR x 1.5 Limitation will lbe used for any other "reinforcement"

 

 

One thing that could lighten some of the issues of this new BR system would be to allow players to join the fight after it started during the "preparation phase" (which is around 30s I believe) where nobody can move. After the preparation phase, the BR would then be locked.

At least you wouldn't be forced to pack a fleet of players within the same pixel but it would still forces you to stay somewhat close from each other to engage a fight.

That would also reduce the fleet splitting issue where a small fleet of players engage one SoL of your group that was left a little bit behind with impunity.

easy solution

 

Edith:

spawn during those 30 seconds is near the a ship which is already in the battle,

Edited April 14, 2016 by ITFHunter

[Bach]

After playing around last night with the new rule:

We were still able to generate gank situation hidden in ports and battle screens.

We were now able to generate gank situation simply by sailing faster ships on the OS and splitting the target group.

Lone ships were still able to be ganked much the same as before as long as we all sailed fail fit. Which most gankers already do anyway.

The one thing we noted that this rule does successfully do nearly 100% of the time is PREVENT RESCUE or HELPING a team mate or even a player IN YOUR GROUP that may have been tagged right before your eyes. This one aspect is a game killer. If gankers can split or others wise get one of your group separated at the time the tag timer goes off the invisible hand if the computer will make you sit there on the OS while they kill him.

We should probably start calling this the " anti-rescue split my group rule". Because the one thing it doesn't do is prevent ganking. LOL

It's just stupid.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Bach

[Bach]

Slamz has a point, we should be calling it...

"The anti-rescue split my group math quiz"

[Babble]

It doesnt.

 

Limiting reinforcements to any side dosent make much sense if it could be done positional and distance objective.

 

Since the OS is a compressed battle reinforcements should join in a distance relative to the elapsed time from battle initialization.

 

Once a battle starts a battle circle should be placed on the OS. As the time from battle start elapses the size of the circle increases to indicate the relative elapsed time. When a ship enters the circle they are asked if they wish to join the battle.  If they join they are placed in the battle in a position relative to their position on the OS to the battle and a distance relative to the start time of the battle. If at any point a player refuses to join a battle when given the option they are locked from that battle.  This is to prevent re-positioning and then joining.

 

Follow with me if you will: (Visual aid linked)   https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9mOinkVxfkQQlJaNl9ucTlUcTA

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Battle start:

• This functions exactly as it did pre 9.7 patch.  Distance and wind direction of the initial tag are what matters. Everyone in the Red attack radius are pulled into battle relative to the the ship that tagged and the ship who was tagged.
• Ships in the light red circle get the option to join the battle as reinforcement (starting a 3 minute sail at 10 knots from long range cannons at their relative positions to the battle). See Niels Terkildsen suggest here for further details (http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/13167-short-announcement-on-the-15x-br-reinforcement-limit/page-3)

From battle start to 1 minute after:

• Anyone sailing into the yellow circle will be given the option to join the battle
• If they chose to join the will join at a 5 minute sail at 10 knots from long cannon range in their relative position to the battle on the OS.

1-2 mins after battle start:

• After 1 minute the size and color of the circle on the OS increases to represent the elapsed time from battle initialization
• Anyone sailing into the peach circle will be given the option to join the battle
• If they chose to join they will join a 7 minute sail at 10 knots from long cannon range in their relative position to the battle on the OS.

2-3 mins after battle start:

• After 2 minutes the size and color of the circle on the OS increases to represent the elapsed time from battle initialization
• Anyone sailing into the yellow-green circle will be given the option to join the battle
• If they chose to join they will join a 9 minute sail at 10 knots from long cannon range in their relative position to the battle on the OS.

3-4 mins after battle start

• After 3 minutes the size and color of the circle on the OS increases to represent the elapsed time from battle initialization
• Anyone sailing into the green circle will be given the option to join the battle
• If they chose to join they will join a 11 minute sail at 10 knots from long cannon range in their relative position to the battle on the OS.

4-5 mins after battle start:

• After 4 minutes the size and color of the circle OS increase to represent the elapsed time from battle initialization
• Anyone sailing into the Blue circle will be given the option to join the battle
• If they chose to join they will join a 13 minute sail at 10 knots from long cannon range in their relative position to the battle on the OS.

5 mins:

• The battle closes and the Circle and swords disappear from the OS.

 

 

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B9mOinkVxfkQQlJaNl9ucTlUcTA

 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

This system would allow for much more interesting and engaging battles.  It would allow friendly players from your nation to reinforce and help someone attacked alone in friendly waters.   It would turn your nations region into a safe zone for players due to the nature of sheer number of people who would be able to join and save the attacked player.   It would be far more realistic to what we currently have in game with 2 min windows and splitting fleets.   I just think its an all around better system to make this game tons of fun.   Image the mayhem that would ensue.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

 

Cap enemy mission join to 2 mins so people can PvE in relative safety.

 

Cap enemy join for all other engagements to 5 mins with the new system.

 

 

Thoughts?

[Random]

After playing around last night with the new rule:

We were still able to generate gank situation hidden in ports and battle screens.

We were now able to generate gank situation simply by sailing faster ships on the OS and splitting the target group.

Lone ships were still able to be ganked much the same as before as long as we all sailed fail fit. Which most gankers already do anyway.

The one thing we noted that this rule does successfully do nearly 100% of the time is PREVENT RESCUE or HELPING a team mate or even a player IN YOUR GROUP that may have been tagged right before your eyes. This one aspect is a game killer. If gankers can split or others wise get one of your group separated at the time the tag timer goes off the invisible hand if the computer will make you sit there on the OS while they kill him.

We should probably start calling this the " anti-rescue split my group rule". Because the one thing it doesn't do is prevent ganking. LOL

It's just stupid.

This here is a good example of why we are all playing this game in Early Access - testing features and suggesting better ones. As I posted in another thread regarding this issue, PURGE members (Bach, Vllad, Slamz, and others) know a great deal about ganks and fighting them. Please don't discard their opinions as those of gankers who just want to gank. These guys have been very consistent with their desire to improve the game and see it thrive. They have also been very consistent with thoughtful criticism and suggestions. I would recommend others to similarly test these new mechanics and see if they can find similar flaws and unintended consequences that affect the game in a negative way. I think that it is safe to say that most people on this thread want the same thing - limit bully-type ganking and improve the game and gaming experience for all, so let's abandon our initial impressions on how these features will protect us from gankers and see if they have a downside that can be solved by tweaking these features or replacing them with better ones. Let's test these features further and continue to have a conversation about our findings and concerns to help the devs find a better solution to this problem.

[Bach]

The reinforcement mechanic wasn't terrible for preventing ganks in home waters.

[admin]

Dear admins: this is not a bad idea at all... small skirmishes can develop into large furballs... with the chance for traders etc to get away... 

 

it was like that before

but.. 

lots of players hated it too. it was fun to a point, but because repairs are limited this snowball leads only to one thing - who joins last wins.

This will work with unlimited repairs though

[Random]

it was like that before

but.. 

lots of players hated it too. it was fun to a point, but because repairs are limited this snowball leads only to one thing - who joins last wins.

This will work with unlimited repairs though

Given the fact that ships already carry up to 27 repair kits on them, why not let them use all of them? It seems highly unrealistic to not be able to use repair kit when you definitely have one. If that can potentially solve the problem, perhaps it is worth testing.

[Fletch]

I just don,t get it. This fix helps the very people it was supposed to hinder.

Its a crazy move, Its right up their with stopping friendlies being able to help the poor younger players in their mission when they get jumped

I spend most my time defending the waters around Jamaica from raiders and seal clubbers.

What ships do they sail? Trincs and Rennos. Always a fast ship. To catch these fast ships you have a long chase, a chase in witch most the defending group will be strung out some times you have to come at these raiders ( hate the term gankers) from different angles, its ridiculous that when we finally catch one the rest of the group cannot join just because they were outside a circle when our fastest ship tagged.

 

The whole population might as well give up sailing anything other than a speed Trinc or Renno. 

Sometimes I wonder if the people who are making these rule changes are the very same people who love to go seal clubbing around noob towns because they always stack the odds against the newer players who need large defense fleets to survive in home waters.

[Babble]

it was like that before

but.. 

lots of players hated it too. it was fun to a point, but because repairs are limited this snowball leads only to one thing - who joins last wins.

This will work with unlimited repairs though

Why wouldnt what i proposed work even with the current repair system?

[Prater]

You can still rescue people being ganked.  The system allows the ganked players to be reinforced.  What part of that isn't clear?  You can reinforce players being ganked.  You can't reinforce ganked players once the BR is over 1.5BR in favor of the ganked player.  Players reinforcing ganked players by more BR are by definition gankers.  If 10 players jump 1 ship, you don't need 20 players to jump those 10 players.  It becomes a reverse gank in that case.  Ganking doesn't need to be solved by more ganking.

[Babble]

No we get it.

 

I understand the system completely.  But what is its purpose? 

 

 

 

Ganking solved by reverse ganking is how the sandbox resolves the issue.

 

 

Ganking doesnt need to be solved at all.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Babble

[Random]

You can still rescue people being ganked.  The system allows the ganked players to be reinforced.  What part of that isn't clear?  You can reinforce players being ganked.  You can't reinforce ganked players past 1.5BR.  Players reinforcing ganked players by more are by definition gankers.

First of all, players reinforcing ganked players beyond 1.5 BR are not necessarily gankers, they might be sending a strong message to gankers by not giving them a fighting chance when they come to gank - that is a good anti-gank mechanic that discourages gank squads from prowling the area. Second, let's forget about lonely 3rd rates being ganked by small ships for the moment (otherwise we'll descend into the whole "sail closer together" argument). A frigate (170BR) can be attacked by 4 cutters (120BR) and will not receive any reinforcements as 120x1.5=180. While this is less of a problem than a 3rd rate facing a swarm of snows, 4 cutters can still demast the frigate with long cannons and sink/cap it while being rather hard to hit at long range. Even though such scenario might be unlikely, it is not improbable and presents a problem that in the eyes of many requires a solution. 

[maturin]

No we get it.

 

I understand the system completely.  But what is its purpose? 

Please just stop. 

 

I refuse to answer this question in plain English a single time more. I doubt the devs want to either, having already made a special thread about it.

 

You can disagree with the desirability of the stated purpose, or cast doubt on whether it is achievable. That's totally fine. I'm not sure I'm overjoyed by the changes either.

 

But you cannot continue refusing to acknowledge the clearly-stated purpose. Now you're just spamming.

 

Stop. 

 

 

 

 

 

 4 cutters can still demast the frigate with long cannons and sink/cap it while being rather hard to hit at long range. Even though such scenario might be unlikely, it is not improbable and presents a problem that in the eyes of many requires a solution. 

Frigates can run.

[Random]

 

Frigates can run.

Not all frigates are created equal and your logic eliminates solo sailing in live oak frigates (trust me, those can't even walk, much less run).

[Babble]

Please just stop. 

 

I refuse to answer this question in plain English a single time more. I doubt the devs want to either, having already made a special thread about it.

 

You can disagree with the desirability of the stated purpose, or cast doubt on whether it is achievable. That's totally fine. I'm not sure I'm overjoyed by the changes either.

 

But you cannot continue refusing to acknowledge the clearly-stated purpose. Now you're just spamming.

 

Stop. 

 

 

Simply asking a serious question since in testing we have proven that it does not achieve any of its intended goals. Not trying to spam or flame.  This is why i proposed a well thought out solution along with visual aids.   To try an improve the game for all of us.  Which is what we are all here for.

 

 

I am not sure how anything you have posted here adds to the discussion,  but since you appear to be getting lively ill refrain from posting anything else in this thread.

 

Suffice to say the feedback is in. 

Edited April 14, 2016 by Babble

[Bach]

You can still rescue people being ganked. The system allows the ganked players to be reinforced. What part of that isn't clear? You can reinforce players being ganked. You can't reinforce ganked players once the BR is over 1.5BR in favor of the ganked player. Players reinforcing ganked players by more BR are by definition gankers. If 10 players jump 1 ship, you don't need 20 players to jump those 10 players. It becomes a reverse gank in that case. Ganking doesn't need to be solved by more ganking.

Because the control is in the hands of the faster ships. 9 times out if 10 that is the ganking force. The ones that planned to be there and are initiating the contest.

Imagine a ganking force of 6 Snows cruising the Jamaican new player areas.

Situation 1- they come across a lone player trying to mission run and grab him. There is two other British players within 2 minutes away in Tricoms guarding the coast and x6 more in 3rd rates in the home port 5 min away. The gankers see the Tricoms and can do math. The frigate has 180 BR. No other ship can enter the battle until 270 BR of gankers get in. So x5 snows gank the mission runner while one steps out of the circle. The Tricoms are now left out of the battle with the lone snow who begins taunting one. The Brit in the Tricom gets angry and tags the snow who is dancing around the OS. Since the other Tricom is not in the circle it's a 1v1. The snow just stays up wind tagging sails at range griefing the Tricom. Meanwhile the gankers have sunk the frigate. They come out of the battle and see the lone Tricom. But the 6 thirds rates are now on the way strung out. Realizing this they radio their partner to get out of the other battle and the begin moving invisibly to the strung out 3rd rates. Sailing past they white circle the trailing one splitting the group. Now they got a third rate in battle. The other third rates can't get in and sit on the OS watching as the 6th Snow comes unstealthed, sails past, gives them a wink and enters the new battle that he can still enter. Now it's x6 Snows (300 BR) vs x1 3rd rate (500 BR) and outside is sitting x5 3rd rates and x2 Tricoms that were all with in sight of the battle. The gankers score another big kill, the defenders go play WOT because rescuing is pointless and the gankers terrorize Jamaica newb zone all they want because this new rule is crap.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Bach

[Pinkelephant]

Because the control is in the hands of the faster ships. 9 times out if 10 that is the ganking force. The ones that planned to be there and are initiating the contest.

Imagine a ganking force of 6 Snows cruising the Jamaican new player areas.

Situation 1- they come across a lone player trying to mission run and grab him. There is two other British players within 2 minutes away in Tricoms guarding the coast and x6 more in 3rd rates in the home port 5 min away. The gankers see the Tricoms and can do math. The frigate has 180 BR. No other ship can enter the battle until 270 BR of gankers get in. So x5 snows gank the mission runner while one steps out of the circle. The Tricoms are now left out of the battle with the lone snow who begins taunting one. The Brit in the Tricom gets angry and tags the snow who is dancing around the OS. Since the other Tricom is not in the circle it's a 1v1. The snow just stays up wind tagging sails at range griefing the Tricom. Meanwhile the gankers have sunk the frigate. They come out of the battle and see the lone Tricom. But the 6 thirds rates are now on the way strung out. Realizing this they radio their partner to get out of the other battle and the begin moving invisibly to the strung out 3rd rates. Sailing past they white circle the trailing one splitting the group. Now they got a third rate in battle. The other third rates can't get in and sit on the OS watching as the 6th Snow comes unstealthed, sails past, gives them a wink and enters the new battle that he can still enter. Now it's x6 Snows (300 BR) vs x1 3rd rate (500 BR) and outside is sitting x5 3rd rates and x2 Tricoms that were all with in sight of the battle. The gankers score another big kill, the defenders go play WOT because rescuing is pointless and the gankers terrorize Jamaica newb zone all they want because this new rule is crap.

There is the point.

This new BR rule a crap...

I think that must be rethinking.

[Vllad]

You can still rescue people being ganked.  The system allows the ganked players to be reinforced.  What part of that isn't clear?  You can reinforce players being ganked.  You can't reinforce ganked players once the BR is over 1.5BR in favor of the ganked player. 

 

How you put it is not exactly how it works. You are assuming the gankers automatically have the BR advantage which is easy to manipulate.

 

The BR requirement applies for either side. We tested this last night. If a Tricom gets jumped by 1 Niagra or 3 Snows or 5 Pickles no one can help the Tricom. Think of it very much like the old Reinforcement bubbles.

 

The gankers can totally manipulate the BR requirement as long as they don't clump up and use small BR fast tacklers.  

 

Basically everyone sails to the battle and manipulates the BR such that no one can send in defenders. Just like people did back when the Bubbles were working. You tackle anyone coming to the fight and add a huge BR skew when the timer runs out. (easy to do with voice coms). Essentially ending any ability to help defend the guy getting ganked. Gankers can pretty much assure they get themselves a gank in every fight. Even those that would have been an even battle in the old system. This new system is easy to manipulate so you end up with 1200 BR vs 300 without ever having to drive in one big clump to do it.

 

This system will create more ganks not less. The only way to defend against this is to sail in fast small BR ships.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Vllad

[maturin]

It's telling that people are resorting to bizarre scenarios (Pickle gankfleets) in order to show how the changes will cause problems.

 

Is anyone really worried about those fearsome schooner hordes on the OW? I think I'll just sail downwind.

[Random]

It's telling that people are resorting to bizarre scenarios (Pickle gankfleets) in order to show how the changes will cause problems.

 

Is anyone really worried about those fearsome schooner hordes on the OW? I think I'll just sail downwind.

Ok, you go ahead and sail downwind, while those who see flaws with implemented features will continue to point them out in a constructive way with a goal of improving the gameplay for all. How many bizarre scenarios does it take for them to become a myriad of possibilities that need to be addressed? Please let us know, we'll try to satisfy your requirement. All you are doing is dismissing arguments without providing a rationale for why you think they are invalid or a counterargument that justifies your support for the new features. That's not constructive, please offer something more than "sailing downwind" as that could have been done before the changes.

Edited April 14, 2016 by Drunken Spelunking

[Vllad]

It's telling that people are resorting to bizarre scenarios (Pickle gankfleets) in order to show how the changes will cause problems.

 

Is anyone really worried about those fearsome schooner hordes on the OW? I think I'll just sail downwind.

 

This situation only seem bizarre to you now because you are used to playing in an open PVP game and didn't have to worry about this stuff.

 

However Bach's and my scenario's are going to become less and less bizarre as players learn to game the system which they always do. If you pvp you will find out quickly exactly what we are talking about because all those gankers out there are going to be moving in this direction. It is as obvious as the nose on your face. This new system will create super easy wins for gankers so instead of this being the bizarre it will become the norm.

 

Many people said exactly what you said above in POTBS when they put something in the game just like this. Month's later when everyone was sailing Vengies and had given up sailing big ships since the mechanics made them obsolete they learned that the bizarre comes fast when you let gamers run the show.

 

If you want to get rid of the bizarre you need open PVP without restrictions which includes ganking. Then you allow the players to police it.  

 

When developers put game mechanics in to try and govern it, "bizzare" will always be the result.  

[Bach]

It's telling that people are resorting to bizarre scenarios (Pickle gankfleets) in order to show how the changes will cause problems.

Is anyone really worried about those fearsome schooner hordes on the OW? I think I'll just sail downwind.

I was expecting you to go this route. So....

Imagine a gank force of x6 fir fail fit Tricomelees cruising the Jamaican new player area....

Situation #2- the Tricomelees come across a frigate trying to mission run. They see two British Tricomelees in the distance and can do math. Two Gankers grab the frigate while the other x4 get out of the circle and rush the two Brit Tricoms headed in. The Brits radio the x6 3rd rates protecting Port Royale who scramble to the area 5min away. The Brit Tricoms being smart run towards the incoming third rates. The fail fit gankers catch the non fail Brit tricoms but the third rates are in the 2min range. So they tag them with x3 Tricoms and the last Tricom stays outside the circle looking for a stragling 3rd rate willing to chase him. He finds one and in a defensive tag can split it off. He radios the first two gankers that just finished off the mission running frigate to come to him. The Brit thirds can't help the two Brit Tricoms because the invisible hand of the computer prevents them from entering the 3v2. They see the two incoming ganker Tricoms and move to tag them hopefully before the get into the separated 3rd rate 1v1. But they need 20sec to get the tag and the other battle is already to let them in. So they get in. Now it's x3 gank Tricoms (600BR) vs. x1 Brit 3rd (500BR) no one else gets in. So outside sits x5 Brit 3rds that we always in sight of the battle when it started. The gankers sink a frigate and a 3rd rate. Possibly x2 more Tricoms or just withdraw from that one. When the battles all end the gankers sit on exit screens and leave at the same time fanning out so only x1 gank Tricom can ever even get in a fight with no more than x1 Brit if that. The gankers maintain total control of the fights, rescuing is still pointless and the gankers own the Brits because the new rule is still crap.

Shall we go for situation#3?

Edited April 14, 2016 by Bach