Adding new factions Russia / Prussia

[Wilson09]

Honestly,

my last suggestion.

 

Considering the strong German / Russian playerbase, I´d add 2 new factions.

 

First I thought of "skipping Denmark and Pirates" for them, but there are good reasons to keep them.

 

It is not that a-historical,

Brandenburg-Prussia had presence and a say in the Carribean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg-Prussia#Caribbean

 

Also, one might think of Russian America

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_colonization_of_the_Americas

having made it to the Mexikan coast.

 

The big advantage putting Russia to the Mexikan coast would be

- this far west region on the map is barely touched by anyone right now

- somehow the Russians might "fit" in there coming from Alaska (just an assumption)

- solves the logical problem with Russian build ships being used in the game

- boosting the strong Russian community, "freeing" Denmark-Norge to be played by

a more mixed community

 

 

 

Brandenburg-Prussia can start from St. Thomas.

 

 

 

Pirates can be still be another another story, though (or remain the way they are...)

 

Big advantages:

- you have all big European powers in it (might add a further Portuguese spot in the south).

- strong player base issue taken into account ("homeless" Russian speaking community)

- adding further PvP to the game, as an empty part of the map will be revived

- focused German/Prussian community could add further fire to the game, German players are well known

not only to pick "their" nation, moreover many south-Germans will be not willing to play for a Prussian state

but rather fight them. But very likely the HolyRomanEmpire guys fighting on behalf of Sweden might want

to relocate...

 

Rework "pirates" and reserve 1 special national ship for each faction / nation.

 

Any comments?

(Okay, I forgot about the Italian community and and, but...you cannot cover all)

Edited April 12, 2016 by Wilson09

[EricKilla]

As a Prussophile, I would be completely down for this. I suspect Prussia would end up very much like Sweden; Starts off with 1 island and has to grind it's way to victory.

[Cragger]

Right now I don't think dividing up the already small population even more is a good idea. Be it ahistorical or not.

[Karaya 1]

Right now I don't think dividing up the already small population even more is a good idea. Be it ahistorical or not.

At the moment i would totally agree with this.

 

if at some point we have more players then it might be a good idea (if ever) to add those.

[Lancella Dutch de Wildt]

Right now I don't think dividing up the already small population even more is a good idea. Be it ahistorical or not.

Agreeing with you mate, atleast for this moment seeing the overall number of players and max amount players the servers currently can handle.

[Anolytic]

I have no problem with the Russians having their own nation in game. They will kick all of our asses, and it'll be fun. But this is a poor excuse:

- boosting the strong Russian community, "freeing" Denmark-Norge to be played by

a more mixed community

Denmark-Norway is already a nation with a vey mixed population. The only reason it might seem that there is a disproportionate number of Russians in the nation is because they are active players and committed PVPers. The RUS clans are the most active on the frontline, the most organised, and they are excellent players - many of them having played since well before Steam release. That does not make them the majority in the Danish nation, just the best part of it. I'm repeatedly surprised by the number of fellow Norwegians and Danes actually playing, but they are mostly sailing around Christiansted doing missions and fleets or trading.

 

So why would you make two new small nations, just to deplete the forces of two of the currently smallest and most disadvantaged nations? Make an Aussie nation then, and a Hanover one for all the Germans playing in the British ranks.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Henry d'Esterre Darby
Removed forum PvP.

[Galileus]

We already have plenty of small nations. I see no good reason to add more.

 

 

The big advantage putting Russia to the Mexikan coast would be

- this far west region on the map is barely touched by anyone right now

Which means people are not interested in spreading more. It's not like anyone looses anything because a single region is not seeing combat.

- somehow the Russians might "fit" in there coming from Alaska (just an assumption)

How is that a big advantage? Or a advantage at all?

- solves the logical problem with Russian build ships being used in the game

Even though it kinda maybe does, it's barely a convinience, not a reason to add a new nation!

- boosting the strong Russian community, "freeing" Denmark-Norge to be played by

a more mixed community

Wouldn't removing a nationality from a nation lead to less mixed community?

 

Big advantages:

- you have all big European powers in it (might add a further Portuguese spot in the south).

Again, this is barely a circumstance, not an "advantage" nor a sound reasoning. Being a completionist befits player, not a dev

- strong player base issue taken into account ("homeless" Russian speaking community)

Aside from a few very vocal individuals - that are being put down very quickly by general community - I never seen any issure. Russians play for any nation they want to, so what? You want them out?

- adding further PvP to the game, as an empty part of the map will be revived

That is straight up wrong. Adding more nation does not add more PvP players, thus it physically cannot lead to more PvP. All it can do is lead to less PvP because further spreading of the playerbase.

- focused German/Prussian community could add further fire to the game, German players are well known not only to pick "their" nation, moreover many south-Germans will be not willing to play for a Prussian state but rather fight them. But very likely the HolyRomanEmpire guys fighting on behalf of Sweden might want to relocate...

I see nothing in here but a baseless fantasy. Spreading more nations thin could add more fire how...? Because there are now more small nations unable to fight openly?

[Hethwill]

What is needed is mechanics, conquest mechanics, that make sure every major timezone can participate. Not more nations.

 

Regarding player nationalities and from what I've seen in the community the internationality is now well cemented across all nations and pirates with all 3 major timezones present in all nations. Only the reclusive ( or out-of-game nationalistic mongrels ) think otherwise.

 

Iwouldn't mind to see the map changed a bit, like pushing the focus north to eliminate the Pacific area ( 20% of the map being unplayable ) and having more north America coast available with the Carolinas up for grabs and some nice privateer RP.

[thomas aagaard]

how about no.

 

If the west coast of the continent is added, then sure lets add Russia... but until then no reason to do so.

Prussia was in no way a naval power during this periode.

They did have a presence on saint Thomas for 8 years... where they rented part of the island from Denmark. But that is it.

 

Adding them to the game would make no historical sense.

[Wilson09]

We already have plenty of small nations. I see no good reason to add more.

 

Some good points had been made. Let me counter-attack the arguments....

 

a) covering the west region by a nation...

Has been mentioned on the forums, that a "barely" touched region is not a good indicator for a game

(ressources there not relevant to the game). Point is, it gives the US / Spain / UK a great enemy to the west.

But this argument might be a weak one.

 

b ) logical problem with Russian build ships

Has been mentioned on the forums, players question the Ingermanland (Devs choice) because there is no faction

like it in the game. Rightfully. You might question the a-historical setup, but you need to make assumptions and

find a playable compromise. It is more "logical" to have a Russian faction + the ships than NO faction and the ships.

 

c) Wouldn't removing a nationality from a nation lead to less mixed community?

Yes. First sight. But how many did not choose Denmark-Norge knowing there is a dominant

nationality (and Russians prefer to use their language, as they do in the pirate chat).

No problems with it. But I think the main point here, had to be discussed within the Russian

community. Ask the "introducing Russian Empire" question in the Russian speaking forum.

Only they can know, if they like it or not. Finally, it is all about the "benefit" and preferences

of the players.

 

d) Russians play for any nation they want to, so what? You want them out?

Rightfully, they do. Of course not. I want more Russian players IN ! Attracting more players to the game

is the only goal by this suggestion. I could counter-attack your argument and reply "Do you want Russians out,

by forcing them to play for their neighbours and not appear actually on the map as an empire"

 

e) Adding more nation does not add more PvP players, thus it physically cannot lead to more PvP.

All it can do is lead to less PvP because further spreading of the playerbase.

All depends. Assume, number of players remain constant. Spreading players across the map means reduction

of sailing time and that has been an issue. But, my approach is based on the assumption that it will

attract more players to the game (German + Russian speaking). Of course, Germans and Russians play

whatever faction they want. But? Are they happy with it? Yes, but they could be even happier playing

on behalf of Prussia/Russia.

 

f) Spreading more nations thin could add more fire how?

Simple. How do you think might a Russian feel touched by loosing a Danish port or a Russian?

Identification comes into play. Furthermore, every German/Russian school kid knows about their

respective history making it easier to identify and post historical content. I simply cannot see any

meaningful roleplay by the Holy Roman Empire clan of Swedish origin or Russian clans on behalf of the

Damish crown. Makes it easier for the players.

 

Further, don´t forget about the Ukrainian (and Polish) playerbase. They also can choose to play

Russian empire or fight them. I see more "fire" putting Russia on the map.

 

You can accuse me of being a "nationalist", but I certainly would feel more identification fighting

for a small Prussian island in the Carrieban but for a black flag nation.

 

g) Prussia was in no way a naval power during this periode.

So true. They were not stupid and seeing no chance of winning the sea, they focused on army strenth.

But, one nation has to be the weakest naval power from a historical point of view.

 

Final point,

"playerbase" is an issue. I believe, adding historical European powerhouses

might be good for marketing reasons which could attract more players.

 

SUUM QUIQUE !

Edited April 12, 2016 by Wilson09

[Hethwill]

I do not like this Nation creation thing to attract players that want to play their nation for historical nationalistic reasons. *shivers*

[Sella]

There was little to none Prussian navy in that period. Most of their ships maybe all of them were small coastal patrolling ships for the Baltic. A small navy reformation started around mid 19th century.

 

If a nation was to be added, i think that the best choice would be Portugal. Given the current map that we have it seems like the best option from many aspects that are obvious.

 

A map of Europe in the future isn't unlikely. But it all depends on the state of the game and most importanly the size of its playerbase.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Sella22

[Wilson09]

There was little to none Prussian navy in that period. Most of their ships maybe all of them were small coastal patrolling ships for the Baltic. A small navy reformation started around mid 19th century.

 

You might refer to Prussia...but I was talking of Brandenburg...(later Prussia)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_Navy

 

--------------

During the 17th century, the navy was of great use in numerous battles in the Baltic Sea, and it also served

the interests of Brandenburg's colonies in Africa (specifically the Brandenburger Gold Coast) and the Caribbean.

By the year 1680, the Brandenburg Navy had almost thirty active warships.

 

 

List of ships in the Brandenburg Navy :

• Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde (frigate)
• Berlin (frigate)
• Dorothea (frigate)
• Rother Löwe (frigate)
• Carolus Secundus (frigate)
• Kurprinz von Brandenburg (frigate)
• Chur Prinz (frigate)
• Morian (frigate)
• Wappen von Brandenburg (frigate)
• Bracke (yacht)
• Große Jacht (yacht)
• Wasserhund (warship)
• Fuchs (warship)
• Einhorn (warship)
• Printz Ludwig (warship)
• Falke (warship)
• Jean Baptista (warship)
• Marie (warship)
• Spandau (warship)
• Stern (warship)
• Princesse Maria

Flagship Friedrich Wilhelm zu Pferde, Museum Berlin

Edited April 12, 2016 by Wilson09

[Wilson09]

I do not like this Nation creation thing to attract players that want to play their nation for historical nationalistic reasons. *shivers*

 

Sure, you assume the worst (attracting nationalist/rascists/fascists to the game).

You won´t find them here in any case as the game is too time-comsuming and some basic "intelligence" needed.

 

But it is easier for any English player (younger: to ask their parents) to make a trip to Portsmouth to have a look at the Victory,

as it is for a Russian player to look out for museums nearby, or a German to check the Berlin-Museum.

[thomas aagaard]

Please show us what colonies they had in the current game area during the late 18th century... Since we got the USA in the game and based on the ships, clearly that is the only periode that is relevant.

 

Also linking to a random wikipage that really don't back up its claims is pretty useless. And a very poorly written page at that.

 

It mention battles in the baltic, but don't name a single one.
t say that the Brandenburg navy was merged into the prussian one. That is just stupid. The Elector crowned himself as King in Prussia... there as no Prussian navy to merge with.
Also Prussia did not become the most important part of the domain. Not until around year 1800 did they officially change the name of the state to Prussia.

 

The list of ships is jut that a random list. It is not backed up by a source it do not in any way tell us that they were active at the same time or even when.

[maturin]

Uh, I'm pretty sure that Prussia was not the point of this idea.

 

Wilson suggested a faction for German players. And he showed that a 'German' state operated large warships. So let the faction be called Brandenburg instead... who cares?

 

The real issue is that all the ships are very old, and would fit better into a Baltic theater set around 1650-1730 for the Anglo-Dutch Wars and the Great Northern War.

[Roche Brasiliano]

Of course not! Not before the Portuguese faction!

[Wilson09]

Uh, I'm pretty sure that Prussia was not the point of this idea.

Wilson suggested a faction for German players. And he showed that a 'German' state operated large warships. So let the faction be called Brandenburg instead... who cares?

The real issue is that all the ships are very old, and would fit better into a Baltic theater set around 1650-1730 for the Anglo-Dutch Wars and the Great Northern War.

Main article is in german, sorry...

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurbrandenburgische_Marine

 

There are enough sources...

http://felipe.mbnet.fi/html/german_ships_1643-1700.html

 

You are right Maturin.

The Margraviate of Brandenburg run the navy, it was consequently merged into the Prussian Navy

by 1701 being occupied by Prussia that year. Frederick I of Prussia abandoned the fleet in 1711,

Frederick Wilhelm I sold the colonies to the Dutch by 1717. Finally, no Prussian Navy existed for

more than 100 years after.

 

So, no 1690th-ships are an issue?

 

Anyhow, as all factions "own" all ships, the issue with "old ships" is not an issue?

 

Let Brandenburg-Prussia run a faction with all ships and

only adding 1 special ship from that period...No?

 

Is it any different to tiny Sweden?

 

P.S.: Would not mind playing a small faction with 3-5 ports only, as world dominance dreams belong

to the British / French / Spanish by that time...and ofc the black flag nation..

Edited April 12, 2016 by Wilson09

[Wilson09]

Of course not! Not before the Portuguese faction!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Thomas_%28Brandenburg_colony%29

 

The Portuguese merchants were important and everywhere, but no Carribean colonies (?)

Please, correct me if I am wrong. It is not my main "research topic"...

 

Same applies to Brandenburg.

But at least, Brandenburg leased part of the Danish island of St. Thomas...

Edited April 12, 2016 by Wilson09

[Wilson09]

One point I forgot to mention. It has been argued that splitting up a small player base is NO good to the game.

 

Asumming, numbers might rise a bit, I don´t see the point.

 

The BIG issue has been the size of the map and OW travelling times. I don´t think the Swedes are complaining

too much about this issue, are they? Their territory is limited to a small size and if they feel like travelling any further,

they do so. But they don´t feel bad that they cannot "protect" or defend a port being too far away.

Introducing more factions might help solving this issue. It is worth a thought...

 

Having played on behalf of the big "black bloob" in the game, I´d certainly prefer to switch to Sweden next time,

being restricted to a smaller operation area.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Wilson09

[Marcomies]

Main problem I see with this is that both German and Russian player bases in this game are very large and having pretty much all of them in two factions could unbalance the already unbalanced balance of power between the server factions even further.

[Sir Robert Calder]

There is no reason to add a new nation into the game when the conquest mechanics do not support it. As a Spanish player on PvP2 where we were woefully outnumbered by our enemies, we were struggling for basic resource consumption against larger and more numerical foes.

 

In the future if conquest mechanics are more in favor of fewer, more meaningful engagements/changes on the campaign map then perhaps it may be more feasible to have additional factions.

 

Maybe even AI factions in the distant future?

[Pagan Pete]

No.

 

 

Portugal first! 

[Wilson09]

Main problem I see with this is that both German and Russian player bases in this game are very large and having pretty much all of them in two factions could unbalance the already unbalanced balance of power between the server factions even further.

I don´t think a Brandenburg-Prussia would attract 100% of the German speaking community. We are well known

to use our knowledge of foreign languages and play British / Dutch / French / Spanish (having checked the German

clan list). I doubt those German-Swedish  clans speak Swedish though. I am not sure about the knowledge of Russian.

 

Also, just introducing the nation with one of the next patches, not many would switch.

I would though...being resurrected from the graveyard the meaningless Pirate nation put me into...

 

Certainly, Pirates right now are appealing to the Russian/German playerbase.

Don´t see them switching in big numbers...

 

And honestly, I was more looking at the broader picture and from a marketing / playerbase - point of view.

 

A Brandenburg-Prussia can be advertised greatly and might attract many German speaking players.

It is just a huge PC-market. Moreover, many might fear not to handle the use of English in chat / teamspeak.

Certainly, Brandenburg-Prussia could be a "safe" haven for use of the German language and a later,

then worthwile, localisation patch.

 

Okay, one might argue, we have all the German-speaking clans (everywhere as I know), what´s

the problem?

 

Right. But let me put it this way. It is much more attractive for a new player to have more options

(more clans /groups to choose from), to make friends you need a wide selection to pick from.

Being myself in the 40+ age-group, I have witnessed a considerable group of older players

sailing in these waters. If you start as a new player, you simply are put in a mix of 20-60 (any older here)

aged players with no differentiation (also hardcore, casuals and so on).

 

I´d believe I could bring in a good bunch of older dedicated-guys who liked to play Brandenburg-Prussia.

In the mixture,  you get lost and finally quit the game (or never buy it). The older players are the players

who stay around longer and try to develop the game.

 

Same reasoning might apply to the Russian/Ukrainian playerbase.

 

Guess, I might come up with a solution for the size problem (but they are tiny, not relevant).

No, they should not be big, a few ports being enough to start...

 

Don´t count Brandenburg-Prussia out, please...

(you can easily, by giving an excact timeline when the game is supposed to start...1780? out..1810? out..)

Edited April 13, 2016 by Wilson09

[Wilson09]

 

I have no problem with the Russians having their own nation in game. They will kick all of our asses, and it'll be fun. But this is a poor excuse:

Denmark-Norway is already a nation with a vey mixed population. The only reason it might seem that there is a disproportionate number of Russians in the nation is because they are active players and committed PVPers. The RUS clans are the most active on the frontline, the most organised, and they are excellent players - many of them having played since well before Steam release. That does not make them the majority in the Danish nation, just the best part of it. I'm repeatedly surprised by the number of fellow Norwegians and Danes actually playing, but they are mostly sailing around Christiansted doing missions and fleets or trading.

 

So why would you make two new small nations, just to deplete the forces of two of the currently smallest and most disadvantaged nations? Make an Aussie nation then, and a Hanover one for all the Germans playing in the British ranks.

 

Yes, I want to see the Russian bear in action !

 

>>Make an Aussie nation then, and a Hanover one for all the Germans playing in the British ranks.

Nope. Checked it. Austrian-Hungary did not have an colony activities by that time in the Carribean, Hanover?

Nice idea. But there are alreaday well running German clans in British ranks. Maybe, they should be renamed?

British-Hanover. Good point Anolytic. Profound of history.

 

>>So why would you make two new small nations, just to deplete the forces of two of the currently smallest and most disadvantaged nations?

Now I am speculating. Only DEVS might know by IPs.

Germans? Mainly British, Pirates. then Swedish, Dutch, Spanish, French, few Danish-Norge.

Russian? Mainly Pirates, Danish-Norge

 

Brandenburg-Prussia/Russia would "drain" players from Pirates / Britain / Danes / Swedish mainly, if, IF they switched.

 

The rest is just about game-design. I´d presume the Russians would be strong in the west and giving US/Britain a hard time.

Brandenburg-Prussia would be small and certainly needed alliances with Danes/Swedes...(North-alliance)

 

Now, this is all speculative. I might come to my main idea later in another post...

 

But let me have a final word, all nations/factions (apart from pirates) are mainly run

by mother-tongue speakers. The French speak French, the Spanish Spanish, the Dutch Dutch

(and English as they do in real life), the English English, the Americans English, Pirates speak Esperanto

(sorry...forgive me...), not so the Danish/Swedish?

 

In my view, this makes the game unique ! Why the heck, do you force the Russians play a faction

they´d probably not choose if Russian empire would be available ? Ask them devs, please !

(resulting in resentments in the chat towards Russian speakers and to the game itself).

 

Why´d you force dedicated German Naval players to pick a nation where many German speakers

are likely to be around (being Sweden) and come up with some fancy clan names, saying, they´d

probably play something else

(Sweden: Holy Roman Empire, Deutsche Kaiserliche Flotte, Kontinentale Seestreitkräfte Germany;

Dutch: Deutsche Kaiserliche Flotte

US: Legio Germania, Germanisches Kriegsspieler Konsortium)

 

I am not talking of the clan names, showing that they entirely adopt to the nation/language.

Everyone should play, what they like to play for.

 

Coming back to the mother tongue argument.

English was not the predominent language by that time !

It is now, due to several reasons. By that time, 17th to 19th century, French was the language of diplomacy,

the royals and the European courts, not English (I am not talking of Latin now).

 

So, let not only the game evolve, but the languages

and not be dictated by the realities today.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Wilson09