Changes to PB and battles: "the 1st rate problem"

[Ligatorswe]

I can see that we are only days away from having only pavels and victories and above in Port Battles. Soon there will only be Victories and Santtis.

I cant say that I like that development and I hope the devs do something about it in the future. We need someting that makes the use of THIRD RATES and above in Port Battles the "end game" not port battles with 25 Santtis on each side, or something like that.

 I would simply propose a hard cap on the number of first rates and 2nd rates. 

Not more than three first rates and 10 second rates can participate in Port Battles. The buyer of the flag gets to decide over 15 of the players. Who he wants in. 10 slots are free.

The good thing with this is that it would make 3rd rates, not Santtis, the end game. 

We could also try to vary the ships that is required for every battle. lets say. one time 2 another time 4 1st rates. And sometimes even lower ships like 4th rates and 5th could be required. (The best thing would be to create events inside the port battle where lower rank fast ships are needed. IN REAL LIFE frigates and such was needed. For example to protect the supply lines.
 

[Stix]

No flags! No Br! No 1st rate cap.

The entire pb system needs a revamp, the current flag mechanic is fubar

[Anne Wildcat]

Maybe instead of 25 vs 25 the limit is set by BR? Once a certain BR is met, no more ships can enter. I don't know, just a suggestion.

[Ligatorswe]

Anne. That could be a solution too

[[MCC] Die Antwoord]

I proposed something last week for this. The ships should be predetermined and when players join they are assigned to them based on ranks. All unused slots filled with AI captains. This way it's always a fight based on skill and how many good players show up. Any captain not high enough for the ship assigned would be full crew.. so 25 santismas show up? 1 santis, 2 vics, 3 pavels, 5 3rd rates, etc.... 25 cerbs show up.. same thing...

[Vaan De Vries]

It sounds ridiculous when you have 25 Santis and can't capture the deep water port defended by 25 Cerbs.

 

The ability to gather all might force should be rewarded and the smaller ships still play their role in screening.

 

You are just looking at the problem from a wrong side. The problem of too many Vics and Santisimas in PB is just a problem of actually TOO MANY Vcitories and Santisimas.

 

Cause currently the economy is completely broken. The only valuable things are crafters level and labour hours. Gold and Resources means nothin. So when you get several crafters with Santi BPs and you organize a supply chain for them (or just buy large carriages in open market), because despite it's a Santi materials for it can craft anyone with 1 level in crafting. After that you can build several Santis a day.

 

So this is a problem. Fix economy. Make gold and resources actually valuable again (like decrease both resource production and gold rewards in 2-3 times). But for some reasons developers listen to carebears (and dumb carebears if they can't earn enough money from their missions) and actually do opposite things - like increasing resource production and gold rewards.

 

And now we have what we have.

 

Building a Victory or a Santisima should require a weeks work of 10 or more people. Then it will cost smth.

Edited March 25, 2016 by Vaan De Vries

[Mongoose McMoose]

Also the BP drop rate change completely ruined this. BP drop rate needs to be on a curve so that 5th rates and below drop easily, 3rd rates drop rarely, 2nd and 1st rates drop almost never. 1st rates in the Caribbean are nonsense anyway.

[maturin]

 

 

 1st rates in the Caribbean are nonsense anyway. 

When is this myth going to be finally strangled and thrown in a river?

 

Santissima Trinidad was built in Havana, along with many other SoLs.

[la Touche-Treville]

Mongoose, if we try to turn Naval Action into a true simulator, it's not going to be very fun. Only Spanish sailing on Santis, British on Victories, battles taking up several real life hours or even days, etc...

So no, let's not think of NA as a simulator but as a gaming platform that uses a historical theme as it's background.

 

The BR limit to PBs is something I suggested months ago, glad to see that my predictions at the time where correct in that PBs will now be dominated by 1st and 2nd class SOLs only.

Hopefully with the coast line and PB changes announced, attackers like defenders will have to bring into the battle shallow water ships as well in order to win. 

Simply imagine a fortress situated down a creek where no SOL can sail and only way to reach it is via smaller ships.

 

But I still think that the BR cap is the best way forward forcing teams to take strategic decisions based on the environment.

Last thought here:

• To avoid simple Joe's going out and buying flags without any team or intention of attacking, I suggested earlier that in order for the flag to be activated, the flag buyer needed to gather 24 signatures from players in the port of flaq acquisition. Once those signatures collected, the king signs the conquest order and the flag is activated. A BR could be modulated between a min and max value based on players signing the attack order.

[maturin]

 

So this is a problem. Fix economy. Make gold and resources actually valuable again (like decrease both resource production and gold rewards in 2-3 times). But for some reasons developers listen to carebears (and dumb carebears if they can't earn enough money from their missions) and actually do opposite things - like increasing resource production and gold rewards.

 

And now we have what we have.

 

Building a Victory or a Santisima should require a weeks work of 10 or more people. Then it will cost smth.

 

 

How expensive do 1st Rates have to be before we see historical proportions of SoLs?

400% as expensive? 500%?

Does anyone care to guess, and can they possibly have an informed reason for making that guess?

 

The price would have to rise with time and inflation. And you know that eventually a clan would put together 25 of them for a critical port battle (e.g., British vs. Rats at Jeremie).

 

Do we really want to make the cost of building 1st Rates soar far above historical levels in a never-ending quest for historical distribution of SoL sizes?

[admin]

When is this myth going to be finally strangled and thrown in a river?

 

Santissima Trinidad was built in Havana, along with many other SoLs.

 

this!

 

anyway.

where is the "grind is bad - make it easier please" player group. They seem to be avoiding topics like this like fire

 

Based on this book 

http://www.amazon.com/British-Warships-Age-Sail-1793-ebook/dp/B018YB7ZWW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1458912200&sr=8-2&keywords=british+warships+in+the+age+of+sail

 

In the end of 18th century in the royal navy

• There were 20 ships of 100+ guns (including 3 on great lakes)
• There were 40 ships of 90+ guns
• There were at least 200 third rates of 74+ guns

Total number of combat ready ships in commission was 700 with total weight of 470,000 tons (+300 in reserve)

Total Navy expenditures per year was 20 million pounds during war time

Current ability to build and bring a mix of 25 of heavy lineships is not completely a-historical.

 

What is currently unhistorical is the maintenance cost. 

but again. is this game a job or is it just a game?

[Slamz]

but again. is this game a job or is it just a game?

 

We have to climb ranks -- it's a job.

We have to produce and haul resources -- it's a job.

Everyone can be max rank -- it's a game.

Everyone will eventually be excluded from port battles if they don't bring 1st rates -- it's a job that turns into a game later.

 

The real question is to what extent we want this to be a "for funsies, log in, lolz PvP" game and to what extent we want it to be a Serious Business game where things matter and people feel invested.

 

Both types of games are valid and attract different audiences.

 

I feel like Naval Action has not entirely decided which it should be. If we don't want 1st rates to become the mandatory level of participation (with all new players relegated to grinding PvE bots until they can get there) then we'll have to figure out how to make that happen through game mechanics.

[Heibges]

Maybe from playing PotBS but it was my expectation that in Port Battles it would be all SOL's.

 

One of the things that I hated about PotBS that the PB's were all 3rd Rates because the 1sts were so expensive that players just used them for grinding fleets.

 

I think a 25v25 battle of first rates sounds pretty awesome.

 

At the same time, that fleet of 25 slow moving SOLs sound pretty vulnerable in the open world to a screening fleet , so I think this is the balance.

[Mongoose McMoose]

When is this myth going to be finally strangled and thrown in a river?

Santissima Trinidad was built in Havana, along with many other SoLs.

Yes, because that's where the lumber was! She spent her entire service life on the continent, as did the majority of 1st rates, as they all played the blockade/counter blockade game during the napoleonic wars.

The fleets that fought each other at Trafalgar briefly popped over to the Caribbean to amuse one another, but on the whole, (and anecdotal evidence besides) 1st rates were far too valuable on the continent to be pissed away with colonial bickering.

The end-game notion of NA is just 25 1st rates going at it with each other over some cannon towers, and that's what concerns me. I fully understand that NA is a game and is supposed to be fun, but if 1st rates aren't rare gems, they're being devalued as a game mechanic.

[Quineloe]

The issue is it takes 1465 hours to craft a bellona, but only 1280 hours for a Pavel and 1700 for a Victory.

 

It's basically no difference what ship you build. Each max level shipwright can craft a ship every two days. So why bother with a third rate when you can craft a Victory or Santissima? The slightly higher price is not an issue. The reduced Durability is not an issue - there are not enough actual battles happening to remove enough ships from the game, many port battles are 25 vs 0.

Artifical caps are not the solution here. If someone can field a fleet of first rates, they should be able to do that. However obtaining that fleet of first rates to begin with should be much harder than fielding a fleet of Bellonas.

 

The BP drop rate also does not fix this. All it does is make people pissed because they don't progress for weeks due to bad luck, but eventually everyone has the BP anyways. It's just delaying the problem for a few months.

[admin]

The issue is it takes 1465 hours to craft a bellona, but only 1280 hours for a Pavel and 1700 for a Victory.

 

 

 

per durability those numbers drastically different

don't forget that victory is 1 durability

pavel is 2

and bellona is 3

[maturin]

The fleets that fought each other at Trafalgar briefly popped over to the Caribbean to amuse one another, but on the whole, (and anecdotal evidence besides) 1st rates were far too valuable on the continent to be pissed away with colonial bickering.

110-gun Ville de Paris spent the better part of a year in Americas, taking part in three major battles. That's just the one I could remember off the top of my head.

The Caribbean and its sugar-producing islands were often the main concern in imperial warfare. Very far from a backwater. And these are ships. Crossing an ocean is not a big deal.

[Quineloe]

per durability those numbers drastically different

don't forget that victory is 1 durability

pavel is 2

and bellona is 3

As I said, not enough battles happen for the dura to be an issue.

[Slamz]

At the same time, that fleet of 25 slow moving SOLs sound pretty vulnerable in the open world to a screening fleet , so I think this is the balance.

 

Vulnerable how? To what? As long as they travel as a tight group, you won't even be able to tackle them without a significant force of probably at least your own 3rd rates.

 

They're really only vulnerable if they travel solo or too spread out.

 

But the real issue is still the way new players are excluded. Hopefully we can find other things for them to do, though. In POTBS new players could still help a lot with generating points for the port flip, even if they couldn't participate in the battle itself. Naval Action will eventually need something like that. In a world where most everyone is in a 1st rate, the newer player in a Surprise can't help with port flips.

 

Even operating as a "screen" is useless if the people you're trying to interfere with are organized.

[Peiper]

per durability those numbers drastically different

don't forget that victory is 1 durability

pavel is 2

and bellona is 3

 

I would suggest that this is a load of bullshizzle.  1. why would anyone put good upgrades on a ship they're going to lose?  Why can you repair a cutter that's exploded but not a Victory?  There's no logic, no history reasoning, and it really takes away from the desire to work your way up in crafting AND level to buy a ship that will lose everything if you lose.  I'm not here to debate, just to express my anger that this is a bullshizzle mechanic, especially considering the investment in crafting/gathering mats/etc...

[Yar987]

I would suggest that this is a load of bullshizzle.  1. why would anyone put good upgrades on a ship they're going to lose?  Why can you repair a cutter that's exploded but not a Victory?  There's no logic, no history reasoning, and it really takes away from the desire to work your way up in crafting AND level to buy a ship that will lose everything if you lose.  I'm not here to debate, just to express my anger that this is a bullshizzle mechanic, especially considering the investment in crafting/gathering mats/etc...

 That's the point though. The 1st/2nd rates were extremely valuable and a huge investment. 

[Peiper]

 That's the point though. The 1st/2nd rates were extremely valuable and a huge investment. 

Yeah, they were so valuable they didn't bother to tow and repair them after the battle, right?  Tell that to the REAL Victory.  

 

What they need, IF they're going to keep this limited durability shizzle, is a way to put your sunk ships into drydock.  You fabricate half the parts necessary to build a new one and use that as payment, along with labor hours, to restore a durability.  Then, at least, you can retain their upgrades and you'll have more fun playing them instead of never leaving port for fear of getting swarmed.  Fearlessness makes battles more fun!  

[Taranis]

Perhaps one should look at other types of games for guidance.  In Heroes and Generals for instance, while the game allows players to unlock certain assets - a given war battle has its own limitation on the number of such available deployable assets (based on what generals brought to the party).  So one could envision limiting the number of high tier ships allowed into port battles for instance. 

 

A simpler and more elegant way of dealing with this type of inflation (IMHO) would be to restrict the BR that each side can bring into a Port Battle.  Instead of (or in addition to) Shallow Ports and Deep Water Ports, you would have ports of 1000 BR and ports of 3000 BR (and other cap levels for the sake of variety) - allowing the players to determine whether they prefer showing up in 3 Santissimas or 30 Cerbs. 

 

As for the OW game - I think that as the game evolves (weather becoming more dangerous, restricting the use of lower deck guns to avoid flooding larger ships in heavier seas); relative speed of ships becoming more realistic (or at least proportional); ship supply costs becoming more of a factor....  that the temptation to all inflate to Santissimas will tend to go away. 

Edited March 25, 2016 by TaranisPrime

[Mongoose McMoose]

110-gun Ville de Paris spent the better part of a year in Americas, taking part in three major battles. That's just the one I could remember off the top of my head.

The Caribbean and its sugar-producing islands were often the main concern in imperial warfare. Very far from a backwater. And these are ships. Crossing an ocean is not a big deal.

Yes, as part of the American Revolution, a major land war which embarked armies and required the support of a legitimate fleet. That's not really what Naval Action is about is it?

 

To clarify my position: 1st rates are great. The end-game of Naval action where everyone simply shows up in 1st Rates is not great. Variety is the spice of life, as my big fear for Naval Action is that it will stall out and lose players when it's just 1st Rates waving their members at each other.

[Morashtak]

The end-game of Naval action where everyone simply shows up in 1st Rates is not great. Variety is the spice of life, as my big fear for Naval Action is that it will stall out and lose players when it's just 1st Rates waving their members at each other.

 

Prediction - There will be very few "upgrade-able" 1st Rates built. Reason being is that people already have a "throw away" mentality when tit comes to 1 durability ships. "Why go into battle with a bunch of upgrades on a ship that, when it gets sunk, loses all of your upgrades?" they ask themselves. Very little to no reason other than for "waving their members at each other." Hence a plethora of "grey" 1st Rates and very few, if any, green through golds (golden 1st Rates will be slightly less rare than a unicorn in this game).

 

A system that allows an HMS Victory salvage mechanic could help make battles more enjoyable as people try to survive instead of zerging their 1 durability ships. Dry docks with high, but not punitive, costs could be one of many mechanics that make battles better.