Are 3rd rates too disposable?

[Quineloe]

to be fair, it wasn't just a Santi that got third raided yesterday, also two pavels

[CptEdwardKenway]

Some guys are really only trolling. In this forum and in this game. One suggestion to all of you: if you have no interest in testing and help to develop this game and further before you report exploits you are abusing them till there is no tomorrow please leave this game and it's community and wait till it's released. Thanks.

Back to topic. We talked about this long before. Our first sol were also capped 3rd rates and our first pb were also with capped 3rd rates. This is from 7th march. Long time before the big loss of ports.

Actually it's a good idea. How many of us are fighting pb with capped 3rd rates? I guess many. And if there is also a thread about limitation of sol in pb (for all the trolls in here) so the smaller nations wouldn't be in disadvantage and the frigate class (5th and 4th rates) would be the most common ship like it was in real.

At the moment port battles will end 25 vs 25 1st rates. There is already lack in interests of smaller ships. And since sol were unique ships which also took huge resources to build it makes sense to make them unsailable or maybe completely remove ai sol.

[CptEdwardKenway]

The problem with the 3rd Rate is dual....

Positive

1) Players need them to level (great kill/assist) exp.

2) It's the first real lineship, a player uses and most frequently in game for grinding and port battles.

3) Makes a player lots of loot if sold along with guns.

4) Large amounts can be captured during several hours of team grinding.

Negative

1) To easily capped and in large amounts. This makes crafting and losing a 3rd rate in battle of little regard. No point crafting and taking care of a 3rd rate, like you would your trincomolee or bellona. I could just go cap another in 15min. Port Battles are getting silly, example. Pirates and Danes throw 2 fleets of 25/25 capped 3rd at Jeremy every night for almost a week defended by british. They lost 50 third rates attacking each night for 7 nights. That's 350 sunken third rates at 1 port. That is ridiculous...

It makes crafting kind of pointless in the 3rd rate catg. Unless your a cpt who likes good mods on your third.

Port Battles at will.... the capping of thirds and port battles all day with capped thirds is putting so much money in people's pockets and the amounts of thirds capped...that port battles are happening TOO MUCH. People are getting burned out doing 3-5 port battles a night.

I know thirds are a part of the world exp/port battle/money equation but my opinion is they need to go the way of the pavel. Port battles should be carefully planned battles where you SHOULD be scared to lose your crafted ship..not disposable ship that has 10 clones standing by. Make you think wither that attack is worth it.

This. Exactly this.

[Lestan de Lioncourt]

The problem with the 3rd Rate is dual....

Positive

1) Players need them to level (great kill/assist) exp.

2) It's the first real lineship, a player uses and most frequently in game for grinding and port battles.

3) Makes a player lots of loot if sold along with guns.

4) Large amounts can be captured during several hours of team grinding.

Negative

1) To easily capped and in large amounts. This makes crafting and losing a 3rd rate in battle of little regard. No point crafting and taking care of a 3rd rate, like you would your trincomolee or bellona. I could just go cap another in 15min. Port Battles are getting silly, example. Pirates and Danes throw 2 fleets of 25/25 capped 3rd at Jeremy every night for almost a week defended by british. They lost 50 third rates attacking each night for 7 nights. That's 350 sunken third rates at 1 port. That is ridiculous...

It makes crafting kind of pointless in the 3rd rate catg. Unless your a cpt who likes good mods on your third.

Port Battles at will.... the capping of thirds and port battles all day with capped thirds is putting so much money in people's pockets and the amounts of thirds capped...that port battles are happening TOO MUCH. People are getting burned out doing 3-5 port battles a night.

I know thirds are a part of the world exp/port battle/money equation but my opinion is they need to go the way of the pavel. Port battles should be carefully planned battles where you SHOULD be scared to lose your crafted ship..not disposable ship that has 10 clones standing by. Make you think wither that attack is worth it.

 

 

 

I agree with that ! Ship of the line must be precious ship, 3rd rate included. Lose 1 victory is a tragedy, lose 30 3rd rate ? No problem !... It's ridiculous.

[charognard666]

3rd is the basic for PB, it give an opportunity to unguilded players to play in Pb. When you can afford Bellona and greater ships, you don't command caped 3rd anymore. Well, again, it s a non problem. In few times we'll see only bello and + in Pb, and some 3rd if there is some free slot in Pbs....

 

And when you are commanding your gold 3rd full gold upgrade, it's precious ! 

Edited March 29, 2016 by charognard666

[G'Kar Rah]

Make captured 3rd rates nothing but derelict hulks.  

 

They should be in such bad condition, unable to repair above 50% armor, missing masts, missing sails, have permanent leaks that require crew on repairs and survival.

 

The Captured 3rd rate should also have much lower BR , maybe 250BR. (even this small change would make them unusable in PB's)

 

This would be visually hilarious, to see a fleet of captured 3rds roll up with the ship type "Derelict Captured 3rd" missing sails and guns.  

 

This would still give captains the ability to learn to sail a cheap ship and allow it to be used to some effectiveness if nothing else is available but would be less that half the quality of a true crafted 3rd rate.

 

With this change to the game, even 1st rates could be added back into AI fleets.

3rd is the basic for PB, it give an opportunity to unguilded players to play in Pb. When you can afford Bellona and greater ships, you don't command caped 3rd anymore. Well, again, it s a non problem. In few times we'll see only bello and + in Pb, and some 3rd if there is some free slot in Pbs....

 

And when you are commanding your gold 3rd full gold upgrade, it's precious ! 

 

I personally have Santissma's and Victories, yet often I choose only to risk one of my 25 captured 3rd rates as it will only take 5mins game time to replenish.  

 

I keep 3-4 captured 3rds in every port, when a PB comes up at a nearby outpost I'm often the first to give out free 3rd rates to fellow national captains.  This proliferation of cheap disposable ships makes the game fun however!!  So I don't want to see captured ships go away entirely.

[Ronald Speirs]

Maybe only crafted ships should be get the full double XP and gold while alternatively a captured AI ships get no XP and Gold to stop people spamming them in port battles, less incentive to use them to gain wealth but still a choice if u want to try gain a port.

[Crayon]

Give 3rd rates a buff to hull strength and reduce it to 1 dura. Connies through Trincs get 3. Everything else as is would be my suggestion.

 

Though third rates are disposable, making them ineligible for cap in pve isn't the answer.

 

 

[Balsafer]

I will remind folks 3rd rates were the most common ship in large battles, not frigates.

[Porpoise]

I will remind folks 3rd rates were the most common ship in large battles, not frigates.

 

yes, in battles that happened occasionaly 2 times per war

[Porpoise]

I will give one more oppinion on this matter. 

 

This game, the RvR environment and economics needs huge material and labour hours sinks to work properly. The ships of the line (SOL) are the very pinnacle of the ship building in this era. Owning one and participating in large port battles is an endgame content no doubtly.

 

Every ship in this game requires some effort to aquire. You can capture one or you can build one. But I think, that capturing ships for PVP is hurting the game too much. Let me explain.

 

There are only few ships usable for the port battles. It is Trincomalee, Constitution, 3rd Rate, Bellona, St. Pavel, Victory and Santissima. Only two of these can be aqcuired freely with minimal effort. They are Constitutions and 3rd Rates. The captured ships come with 1 durability only, so where is the problem? The problem is in effort in gaining them and creating free resources in the economy which should be player driven. Look at the labour hours and material cost needed to craft 1 durability (basic quality - no crafting notes) of each ship.

 

Trincomalee 2236  hours (5 dura) + 87k in materials

Constitution  3609  hours (4 dura) + 150k in materials

3rd rate 4118  hours (3 dura) + 170k in materials

Bellona 4246 hours (3 dura) + 170k in materials

St. Pavel 4915 hours (2 dura) + 210k in materials

Victory 5931 hours (1 dura) +270k in materials

Santissima 7111 hours (1 dura) + 332k in mats

 

that makes cost of 1 durability ship as follows:

 

Trincomalee 447 + 17k

Constitution  902 + 37k

3rd rate 1372 + 56k

Bellona 1415 + 56k

St. Pavel 2457 +105k

Victory 5931 +270k

Santissima 7111  + 332k 

*labour hours for extracting the resources are not included, so the real expenses are even bigger

 

So you can see that even losing a 1 durability on your ship of the line is losing more than 1 day of your labour hours and a solid amount of gold.

On the other side capturing of AI 3rd rate or Constitution will take less than 15 minutes and you get the value of 1,5 days crafting + possitive gold.

That is insane and must be gone.

The other argument is missing crafting hours and resources sink. Now as you can see in port battles, more and more players are sailing Pavels, Santissimas and Victories while they have also nice stash of captured 3rd rates ready. This is OK because more and more players are reaching high levels. Players actually do not take the risk of losing ship too seriously because there are always 3rd rates available for 15 minutes effort. If they are produced, like any other PVP ship, there will be real increase in 2nd and 1st rate ship value, because players will spend insane number of crafting hours and resources to build them.

 

Imagine how many crafting hours, materials and gold is spared by capturing 3rd rates. I saw screens from battles where 15 3rd rates died while killing 2 Victories. If the ships were crafted it would be like 12 000 labour hours and 540k loss for the Victories and 20 500 + 840k for the 3rds. A slight economic victory for the 1st rate team, but in current situation it was huge gain for the 3rd rate fleet because in real life they lost only 4 hours of effort compared to the 12 crafting days of the 1st rate team. 

 

12 days vs. 4 hours this is ridiculous and it needs to go if you want RvR to work!!! ...and basically the 1st rates have won the battle...

 

When players will spend their crafting hours and resources replacing even 3rd rates and Constitutions, there will be more diversity in port battles in the means of ships used. Now it leads to the situation when only 1st rates and Pavels are present. Yes, it will happen too, but after such major clash it will be serious problem to replenish the losses. Losing 10 1st rates in will have impact even on the biggest of nations. 

Edited March 30, 2016 by Porpoise

[Wilson09]

Interesting how players quickly figured out how to "use the system" in order to be succesful.

 

I still prefer to wait until I can craft a 3rd rate, because I want to put upgrades on (fit it well)

and sail my own craftet ship. I know, it is not "efficient".

 

Guess, if you want to "win games", you should not have me in your team...

[Almirante Jimi]

All ships should be included in ai misions but not capturable.

[Sir Henry de Montfort]

Its very obvious that the Capped 3rd Rates are a problem that needs to be eliminated or fixed in some way.   I would like to see EVERY SHIP IN GAME, crafted.   I don't even believe in capped 1 dura A.I. ships of any type.  If you do missions and attack A.I. Fleets you make money and it makes you work towards saving for that nice crafted ship you want to advance to your next rank with.  Capped ships should be broken up for parts, BP drops or money to admiralty.  That simple.

 

I am a level 50 crafter and I have almost every ship i could want, due to stock piling resources and good trade routes.  Sant, Vic, Pavel, Bellona, 3rd Rate (yes its crafted, love my mods), trinc..etc.    I do not drag my 1st rates into EVERY port battle.  Why becuase of the tons of frigates and screening ships.  I do bring my crafted 3rd rate.  I don't believe in capped 3rds at all and I am tempted to leave the game for a time period in the hope that when I come back..things will be fixed.

 

Everyone wants there everything, but unfortunatly to make the game better we need to sacrifice the 3rds and easy capping and saving our good ships..so the game can grow and become a better game.  Will people be upset if it happens, yes.  Will some people be happy yes.  But in the end it will make it a much better game and to be honest, i don't want to sale a easy ship. I want a sense of accomplishment, I want a goal in game and a sense of danger.  

 

I really hope if everyone was to sit back...they should look not at what makes them happy, or the next guy happy.  What makes this game seem in all aspects...REALISITIC?    The end goal of the game should be realism and make you feel like you are back in 1785 and your fighting for your nation and trying to climb the naval ladder to glory.  I think we all have said all our points on this thread, but i  have not seen one Admin or Mod make a statement on this topic and it seems to being ignored or its being followed. I just hope it is being monitored and being taken into consideration.

 

Booty

[Wilson09]

I understand all Sir Henry.

But I guess we expect too much from the DEVS / ADMINS, as, I believe,

 

1) they have not figured out yet, what way to go and also if they like our suggestion

2) they need to find out if its programmable (workable) and playable

3) they programming speed differs drastically from playing speed.

 

Due to the last point, I think, players having reached max. lvl will need to put a break

on their playing time, as no one can expect the programme and development to catch up.

 

It is just the way it is 

[Migui]

What if we get rid of the captured IA ships alltogether from Frigate onwards?

They have been removing missions because "people massive captured X ship". Bring them back!

[charognard666]

Too easy to talk about this subject when you are already in 1er rate ship and lvl50 in craft ! Too easy to talk about this subject when you are member of a +30 captain clan where you can build 2 gold 3rd or more a day. I'm not concerned by this subject, cause i prefer for every pb, my crafted and upgraded ship to a caped, but i think about all lone players or lone crafters. By your game vision, you simply exclude them form the RvR and greatly handicap small nations.

 

Just looking the chat nation, all clan members haven't problem for their 3, 2, 1rd, but how many captains don't find a poor crafted 3rd or bellona or find it at 2 millions ? My team begin to produce his own line ships, we can now provide pavel and 3rd ships to all our members, it's not a probleme anymore for me, but without caped ships, i wouldn't make several Pbs and i would miss a lot of fun.

[Eishen]

 I am mostly with Sir Henry , use of captured ships should be heavily limited... but as it would heavily change the game it must be serouisly considered in relation with other aspects/interest of the game.

 

A few examples: 

 

1- Pirates with no captured ships? really?...   seems quite obvious that pirates  cannot  have same capture limitation...but cannot be left with such huge advantage ,  so this have to wait until pirate re-designing (i.e. no big ship crafting / port raid only)

 

2-Snowball effect/conquest pace  : when a nation (specially a highly poppulated) reaches a certain point (depleting SoL reserves of the enemy) it would overrun minor ones to extinction very very quick. 

 

3- Unaligned/casual  players are mostly banned from current "high end"

 

4-Fun factor:  definitevely not everybody is a realism-grognard, and with the inability of adquiring "free" boats fight will be a more serious proposition, this can easily traslate into less willing to PvP and  posibilities to quick actions.

 

 

All of them can be avoided at least partially ( ie, 2. forced peace impoed by European goverment, 3- emergency ships from admiralty , 4- Arenas) but it doesnt look wise creating the problem by changing the current capture behaviour alone.

[Sir Henry de Montfort]

     I understand your point Eishen and I agree that the pirates need to have some special needs attached to removing captured 3rd rates, we need to keep the pirates competetive in the game.  With that said it will make people now craft a little more.  I am level 50 and I did it all on my own.  I was a member of SLRN and i did so outside the guild crafters.  I grinded on my own, I saved credits on my own.  I found my own resources and did all my parts for the most part on my own and I reached 50 on my own. So it can be done.  I didn't want to be at the mercy of other crafters or guild crafters who would make me pay a arm & leg to have a ship crafted or wait on a crafting guild list 20 people long.  People need to stop depending on others and if you want something bad enough work for it.  I also do not charge people an arm and a leg to build a ship or sometimes nothing at all if they have mats.  I give away free bp's and I give ships and money away to help people coming from PvP2 or PvE servers.  Everyone should be helping other in nations to get ahead.

 

I also didn't use the cheat mechanic spawning 25 3rd rates like Stars/ss/sorry did in the gulf of mexico.  I simply attacked A.I fleet after A.I. fleet by myself or with 4 or 5 other random players.   I also have to say that sailing a 1st rate all the time is boring.  Taking that speed trinc or remi out and patrolling in teams of 3-6 players is the most fun i have in game. People that get to the 1st rates know this.  Once we get more ships in game ... large number of 6th rates to 4th rates.  You will see the number of 1st-3rd rates go down.  

 

The spanish and french fighting against us british spam 50 frigates infront of our 1st rates and although they may lose most of those frigates..they give those 1st rates a hell of a fight and even sink a few.  So as you get high up you start to realize that 1st rates aren't the end game, its actually the BEGINNING of the game and you start to understand each ship has its place tactically and strategically.  

[Potemkin]

Taking away capped 3rd rates will make smaller nations utterly unable to defend themselves against more populated nations. Its already a joke fighting against the english muzzle to muzzle, fun yes, but alot of the battles are over before they begin due to the sheer firepower England's crafting population can pump out on a given day. PvP1 spain is fighting fleets composed of 5-6 1st rates pavels and bellonas with a handful of pavels and capped 3rds. Many of our high level crafters defected. I understand there may be alternatives down the road but why do you want to make the national firepower gap even larger than it already is. This would only bolster the ranks of the pirates because people tend to want to have a fighting chance in large scale, organized combat. Suicidal defense in depth will only work if you can get enough players to an area in a small time window, this is why it worked around corrientes for the spanish and it was our only option because if you were allowed to open the PB you would have just won on BR and left.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Potemkin

[Quineloe]

Then it needs to be made easier to craft third rates vs first rates. It currently isn't. Crafting a Santi is a mere 6900 hours on the parts, a Bellona 4000. So a Santi is not even twice as expensive and labor intensive to craft as a Bellona.

 

Maybe significantly reduce the amount of hours required for third rates and below on the shipwright would allow them to pump these ships out in greater number while first rates become rare again. Right now, they're simply not rare, they're very common.

 

I don't buy you Spanish have a hard time keeping up, though.

I think your issue is your shipwrights are too busy building Renommees and Surprises over and over so you get fir+speed ships for everyone.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Quineloe

[Potemkin]

All i meant by that was that even if GB and Spain had the same percentage of people crafting, you would have more output in the long run. 15-20% of 800 is alot more than 15-20% of 300. Fyi im just making up numbers here as far as population and percentage of crafters. On top of that when we lost high level crafters from RACC and RAE we lost BPs as well. Maybe you have a clearer picture of whats going on in spain then i do lol. Im not opposed to limiting capped 3rds down the road but as of right now im saying we dont have anything we can replace them with. I mean, vote for by all means if you want us defending ports with frigates and a few player capped SoLs.

Edit: no one is asking for handouts or pity but dont advocate taking away our only CURRENT sustainable means of self defense.

Edited April 2, 2016 by Potemkin

[Quineloe]

Yes of course you are just making the numbers up. Nobody has numbers, but from what I see when I fight up there by Mugeres Spain seems to have a lot of players who are not interested in fighting PBs or using expensive ships. I see a load of Banderas and Brigadiers in Belle Poules, Frigates, Surprises and Renommees.

We are not a 100 man clan, yet we can sustain two  shipwrights putting every single labor hour into SOL. I'm pretty sure you could do the same if you only wanted to. But that requires some of your time put towards crafting, and not sitting in front of a Free Town with 5 Cutters and Yachts for 12 hours.

I wonder how many of your players are craft level 0.

[Potemkin]

I cant speak for all of us really but from what ive experienced, this game is alot more fun when you play it the way you want, even if that means dicking around in smaller ships and not desperately trying to keep up with bigger powers in terms of crafting, organization etc. Not all of us can sink serious hours into this game. Im not going to change your opinion just like you wont change mine. Agreed to disagree.

[Quineloe]

Well you can Yacht club if all you hold is Havana. You don't need to stand up to a SOL fleet if that is how you enjoy the game.

 

You can't have the cake and eat it too.

 

Not all of us can sink serious hours into this game

 

I find that statement hilarious when RAE can blockade free ports with 10 players for 12 hours straight. RAE, a clan you mentioned that can't craft big ships.