Pirate Mechanics Vote

[Tremor]

I love the pirates as a nation aspect.
Keep that

 

If you don't like pirates driving huge ships : hunt them, sink them.

Form alliances.

 

But don't force it by game mechanics.

[WhiteWalker]

(sorry for any grammar mistake)

 

i was reading the posts and ppl arguing that pirate historically cant make-sail 3rd 2nd 1st rates  and  cant take ports and that is very true

BUT

historically Victory is Brits  ship other nation cant craft it only capture it *

Santimisima is Spanish other nations cant craft it only cap it *

coni is USA etc etc

etc

* historically speaking  capturing a ship under a nation flag the ships belong to the nation not to the captain or admiral

historically speaking capturing a town requires a nations fleet power to do  so this leaves that nations other ports more vulnerable

piracy happened because a lot of  sailors where unemployed after the war was over so they needed a way to make money and cause of the war  ending

nation was able to hunt pirates .... what if war never ended and pirate got so much power and big ships  cause no one bothered them?a lot of pirates where exceptional

sailors navigators captains commander.And  they had a common goal  get wealthy .

 

if you want pirates to not have 3rd and above ships wich is historically accurate

then the nation cant capture ships and keep them ,they have to give them to the nation

 

here in  the game that is still war pirate have gain a lot of power  cause now one is bothering them ....lets say the game is another is a turn buck to 18th century where war is not over and the history is writen again. if you dont want pirate in you way go hunt them furiously  and make the same history as in real life

[Disavowed]

This poll should be changed to, "Should Pirates only get half the game?".  If people insist on making pirates abide by historic standards then ALL nations must abide by history as well, think about what that would mean for half a second and you will see how it is a bad idea.  There is a point where you have to let go of historic realism and acknowledge it is a game.  No offense to the OP, but this is a bad poll in my opinion...

[Blackie]

This is basically a realistic vs. balanced gameplay discussion. No game is ever completely realistic or balanced perfectly. It a design tradeoff as to what works best. To take the position that no one cares about realism or historical context in this case or the position that no one cares about game balance doesn't understand the goal of gaming. Sure everyone wants to have fun, but what that really comes down to is personal preference.

 

So is this problem impossible to resolve? Of course not, even though many will take that position. But any issue like this can be resolved with some compromise. The main problem I see is that so many refuse to even consider a compromise. The best possible course of action is almost always a compromise that everyone can agree with.

 

Just to be clear, I am a pirate and have played as a pirate in numerous games since 1996. I'm also very interested in history and have read extensively.

 

There have been a number of very good suggestions here by other history loving players that also like to play historical simulations. That's what Naval Action was advertised to be even though from the beginning the devs were thinking of using a map of fantasy islands. They have however listened to the players and at least given us the really detailed historical map and extremely accurate replicas of historical ships and the best sailing simulation I've ever played. Sea battles are so much fun primarily because of the attention given to realistic ballistics and physics of weapons, ships, wind, and seas.

 

But now we have the open world released and suddenly the attention to realism is greatly compromised for game balance. To make everything equal and fair with a completely level playing field. But what do we have? Unfairly balanced factions with Brits dominating with Pirates a close second and the rest with few players. That's not fair and not even close to being fun for anyone except the two largest factions. That's ridiculous by definition. Furthermore there is no reason to play any particular faction other than player preference, and players will always choose the most powerful factions to join if given no other incentives.

 

My suggestion is the same method used in Total War games. Give each faction unique special resources, abilities, units, etc. that gives players reasons to play them. This will encourage much more participation in the other factions and provide numerous ways to play the game which will increase replayability over time. Historically each faction had advantages that made them unique. The Brits had their discipline and crack crews. The French had their fantastic ship building and reputation for adventure. The Dutch their advantages in trade and diplomacy. The Spanish with their large American empire, huge fleets, and gold and silver. The U.S. their ship building, freedom, and fighting spirit. But there is nothing in Naval Action that plays up the unique characteristics of these nations. Naval officers didn't get to keep their prizes but had to turn them over to the admiralty. Just like they didn't buy their ships or even build them. They were far too expensive for a mere naval captain to do so. Only nations could afford to build navies. Only rich plantation owners, merchants, and traders could afford to buy ships.

 

Pirates were known only for their brutality, greed for plunder, thirst for rum and wild women, and complete depravity. They were not a nation, but a separate brotherhoods of single ships who elected their own captains every few months for the most part. Sure they banded together from time to time to plunder a treasure ship or sack a town. But they were nothing like the pirates in Naval Action.

 

So here are my suggestions based on history that will greatly increase the enjoyment of everyone playing Naval Action:

1. Make the factions unique with certain advantages and abilities that were known national traits.
2. Each player will choose a nationality as their own. That's who you are and you can't change until you start a new character. Pirates are no longer a nation.
3. Remove national identity as the focus of the game but emphasize the ship captain instead. Allow players to choose a career such as naval officer, merchant, privateer, or pirate, and allow them to switch from one to the other as the mood strikes them. So if someone chooses Brit naval officer that's what he would be for the duration of the game unless he turned pirate and attacked British shipping, in which case he would no longer be welcomed in British ports or the ports of British allies. Other ports should be open this pirate.
4. Your career choice will have certain advantages and restrictions too when it comes to ships and crafting. Naval officers don't own their ships, nor do they have to buy them. They are awarded based on experience by the admiralty. Nor do they get to sell their prizes or keep them but will receive a share of the prize money to use to upgrade their ships. Merchants, privateers, and pirates must buy their ships and outfit them from their profits.
5. Privateers operating on letters of marque must pay a large percentage of their prize money to the admiralty for any ships they capture. Say 20 or 30%. Or pay that amount in order to keep the ship as their own. They may sail, buy, or build any ship in the game if they have the money and experience.
6. Pirates would be free to sail anything up to a frigate with the restrictions already proposed in this thread.

Those existing pirates who want to sail the biggest ships should choose the privateer career. They get exactly what they want, can sign up with any nation as a privateer, even change nations anytime they want, always sail for the largest faction, buy, build, or sail anything in the game regardless of nation. The difference in pirate and privateer is only one thing, a piece of paper issued by one nation making the privateer legal. He can attack any shipping, merchant or naval of enemy nations and for all intents and purposes is still a pirate. Except they won't have every nation in the world hunting for them and will be able to access a great many more friendly ports. It's the best of both worlds for big ship player.

 

That should solve everyone's problem. Everyone gets what they want, a truly open world game with infinite variety with different factions with different abilities and the option to play any faction in the game with a unique gaming experience. There will be sufficient numbers of players in every faction to make the game really competitive. This is a game that everyone should be able to agree on.

[Kedge]

The issue with making the pirate faction unique is making them play differently without restricting them so much that it isn't fun or effective. 

[Kawa Ahangar]

Pirates should not be excluded from anything, and should be allowed to be a major power if the players playing the faction are better and more skilled than the other factions. To be arbitrarily limited because the other factions don't have good players is moronic.

Agreed.

Why Free people without a traditionnal Nation can't be powerful? Smart people unify themselves, know what are they best interest, etc.

As exemple i should say that almost no pirates are attacking other pirates. Because they are not dumb as other faction want them to be.

[Haratik]

Agreed.

Why Free people without a traditionnal Nation can't be powerful? Smart people unify themselves, know what are they best interest, etc.

As exemple i should say that almost no pirates are attacking other pirates. Because they are not dumb as other faction want them to be.

Freedom comes with a price, always does. Pirates were free to do as they wished, but as hunted men, they carried a price on their heads.

I don't know of a single game, movie, story, etc where pirates were able to build massive ships and crew them as effectively as organized nations do. As far as I am aware, every large ship that has been featured in a pirate plot has been commandeered by a disgruntled navy officer or captured by a pirate or smuggler. Construction of such large ships also requires manpower and time that no band of "free men" unbound and unrestrained by law have ever single-mindedly accomplished. Or have y'all forgotten how quickly such men grow bored of an enterprise that fails to reap quick reward? It's no different than the casual gamers seeking a finished product, then throwing a fit when they're told to be patient longer than they want to be. So why, why indeed, should this game be any different?

[Tremor]

Love his idea :

 

too much text for quote..

[Azzak]

Because to be able to crew ships of the line, you need :

 

- a big industry capable of designing, collecting ressources and assembling them. Even small nations can't do that. Even so less pirates, that lacked many ressources needed for ship building. Do you see vast forets in the carribean ? No. No ship of the line was ever built in the carribean if I'm not mistaken, most of them were assembled in Europe, some in Asia (English India for example), and some in the USA later on.

- a naval academy capable of giving officers the training required to handle such ships. I'm not sure there was ever a "pirate naval academy", or at least one that was capable enough of training skilled enough captains.

- logistics that enabled very large vessels to operate. Where do you get all rations, ammunitions, repair "kits" etc and money to pay all this crew ? Pirates couldn't at all. Same for small nations.

Besides pirates didn't need big ships because they would be slow, incapable of capturing merchant ships,the activity where they got most of their money. if they can't capture ships or raid ports, no money, no ships. Nations didn't had this problem, because most of their money came from taxes from Europe, where all cities etc where. What we see in the carribean is the display of european powers (we can consider american cities to be nearly the level of development as european ones). Can you raise enough taxes for war fleet in the carribean ? No. That's why pirates nations didn't exist at the same level as big, powerful nations. 

Edited February 10, 2016 by Azzak

[Haratik]

Because to be able to crew ships of the line, you need :

- a big industry capable of designing, collecting ressources and assembling them. Even small nations can't do that. Even so less pirates, that lacked many ressources needed for ship building. Do you see vast forets in the carribean ? No. No ship of the line was ever built in the carribean if I'm not mistaken, most of them were assembled in Europe, some in Asia (English India for example), and some in the USA later on.

- a naval academy capable of giving officers the training required to handle such ships. I'm not sure there was ever a "pirate naval academy", or at least one that was capable enough of training skilled enough captains.

- logistics that enabled very large vessels to operate. Where do you get all rations, ammunitions, repair "kits" etc and money to pay all this crew ? Pirates couldn't at all. Same for small nations.

Besides pirates didn't need big ships because they would be slow, incapable of capturing merchant ships,the activity where they got most of their money. if they can't capture ships or raid ports, no money, no ships. Nations didn't had this problem, because most of their money came from taxes from Europe, where all cities etc where. What we see in the carribean is the display of european powers (we can consider american cities to be nearly the level of development as european ones). Can you raise enough taxes for war fleet in the carribean ? No. That's why pirates nations didn't exist at the same level as big, powerful nations.

Azzak, some errors in your post.

1. The Spanish had the resources readily at hand in the New World to float new warships. Our very own Santisima Trinidad was launched in Havana, Cuba, and she wasn't the first or last great ship to be floated in those waters.

2. Small nations could afford ships of the line. There have been plenty of plans submitted by members here from such seagoing nations as Venice, Portugal, and even the Knights of Malta (previously known as the Knights Hospitaller, heck they weren't even a nation and they had their own Navy including ships of the line!).

3. Logistics and money. Hrm, I can think of any number of ports in this game that are based off of historically rich and well supplied ports from history that were capable of feeding and paying for the crews of ships that paid visit to their harbours. The difference is it was easier to do for organized nations than it was for a motley crew of rabble rousers. The ONLY exception, that I'm aware, to this is Jean Laffite, and even then, his crews did not use large craft.

TLDR: do some research next time, it helps immensely. ????

Edited February 10, 2016 by Hairy Fishnuts

[Azzak]

1. Didn't know about the spanish ! French didn't at least, and I don't think english ever did. Can you name some ports with shipyard capabilities like Havana ? (which is the capital of spain IG and can't be captured by pirates anyway...)

And about the spanish... have you looked at all this empire they got ? No way pirates would have territories like that right and access to that many ressources that could be taken from all these to the carribean.

 

2. Venice and Portugal are small nations ?? Venice, portugal are not small nations like pirates, in fact they were extremely wealthy minor powers. You can't really compare them to cities around the carribean....

About knights of malta... where do you think they got money from ? from themselves only ? Not really a good example my good sir.

When I talk about small nations it's not really minor powers around the globe, but something that can be compared to ports captured by pirates. And no, small nations like that ever fielded a fleet of ships of the line.

 

3. Okay, so why did nations left ship of the lines in waiting at ports and used only frigates to patrol seas etc ? Because it was awfully expensive, that's one reason. 

Of course, maybe pirates could crew one or two... but will they be able to make a full line of battle of them ? Nah. Denmark-Norway had 20 ships of the line in the 17-18th, and they had a whole kingdom to support that.

 

About ports being wealthy... didn't they get wealthy because of investments from the european nations and their trade with them ? If pirates get their hold on them, I'm not sure they're going to be that wealthy anymore.

 

And last thing... you don't need to taunt me with "do some research next time", just talk politely right ? Isn't that too much to ask ?

 

Another point : and then finally... ok so pirates form a nation around the carribean. Who will be the leader of outlaws ? What if they can still attack each other ? Who can guarantee trade fleets will arrive safely ? Who will lead ship of the lines ? Who will organize all that stuff ? Seems awfully complicated, even so when all other nations around the globe will just want to crush them asap because they won't have any legal existence.

Edited February 10, 2016 by Azzak

[Haratik]

TL/DR

 

 

1. I happen to enjoy military history, as well as certain periods in history overall, so yes, I'm well aware of how the Spanish achieved their empire.  From what I can tell, only the Spanish built any ships of the line in the Caribbean, but that's irrelevant, the point was made in my previous post concerning whether ships of the line were built in the Caribbean at all.  Next.

 

2. Last time I checked, yes, Portugal and Venice were small nations.  Granted, Portugal had an empire, but it's very easy to control so much with so little, especially when you're light-years ahead of any hostilities in the way of technology.  Just ask Pizarro and Cortez.  Small nations = minor powers.  You can't say one is not like the other.  Also, since when were pirates ever a recognized nation?  That's right they weren't.  Please don't distort history with the fiction in this game.  Next.

 

3. Again, a little brush up on research would help you with your posts.  Third and fourth rated ships of the line consistently escorted merchant fleets and patrolled waters in the Caribbean.  The only ships of the line that wouldn't consistently patrol were larger vessels such as the second rate flagships that the British were known to have built for the express purpose of serving overseas in such a capacity.  Regardless, your point is again, disproven.  Next.

 

4.  There's nothing to debate here, you're just picking at straws.  NEXT.

 

5.  I'm not taunting you.  A common misconception is that I'm "out to get you".  I just enjoy "rising to the occasion" more than the usual forum user.  I also shake my head, literally and figuratively, when I see someone posting something they know next to nothing about.  I know I'm not the only one who sees it that way, though about different subjects of course.  If you want me to talk impolitely, good luck, Brigand or one of the other mods will clean up the mess, and I don't want to be the one that started it.  Finally.

 

6.  Do some research instead of firing back with unsupported statements on history as well as criticism about how someone structures their post.  It's tiring to deal with.

 

I stand firm on my previous statements.  Limited access to ships of the line.  Raiding only.  Make pirates feared for their skill against the odds.

[Cauldronborn]

Of course anyone not actually playing the pirate faction is going to vote against them.

[DeathGenie]

I stand firm on my previous statements.  Limited access to ships of the line.  Raiding only.  Make pirates feared for their skill against the odds.

 

 

Of course anyone not actually playing the pirate faction is going to vote against them.

 

I agree, even as a pirate, limited access to ships of the line doesn't remove anything from anyone, if we pirates cannot craft ships of the line it does strongly limit our port capping and large pvp battle capabilities, but you know what? No one is required to be a pirate if you dislike the idea of pirates being limited by nature don't be a pirate, if we do limit pirates to raiding and make their few ports across the map uncappable then we'll see pirates doing.. well piraty things, raiding ports, attacking traders, attacking naval officers who can't stand up to them. If you want nation play, play as an established nation, I'm sure the US and brits could use assistance as they obviously can't stand up to the current pirate faction, right now its just a nation like every other nation, we have other nations, if pirates become different than nations then we won't really lose people... we'll see some of the current pirates switching to a nation, but thats not exactly a bad thing huge nations with small amounts of pirates around the map in their strategically placed locations disrupting the trade lanes would be interesting. Right now what we have is a huge black nation crushing actual nations, not being pirates.

 

If we do see changes like this I'd also like to see an option to defect from the pirate faction to any nations, perhaps it costs a large amount of gold, but you have the ability to buy a pardon from a nation and become that nation. Enough gold that its not worth exploiting, but not so much that its impossible for a player to do.

[CptClutch]

If you remove pirates ability to craft larger ships i will uninstall game

[Blackie]

If you remove pirates ability to craft larger ships i will uninstall game

 

Way to go there CptClutch. That's the spirit. My way or the highway. That always works. Not. In fact no one wins with that sort of attitude. Only a compromise in which everyone gets what they want and everyone wins is the only solution worth pursuing.

 

I proposed a workable solution. No one else has proposed an alternate. Either no one can come up with anything better or they simply don't care. They just want what they want and everyone else doesn't matter. Which is apparently your position. So let's say you get exactly what you want. Many interested in historical simulations will leave. If history buffs get exactly what they want to the detriment of everyone else, then many wanting an arcade game will leave. Either way the company loses customers and fewer players means less future profits and the game doesn't last very long. It cost money to maintain multiplayer servers and without support from everyone who wants this game, it's not going to last.

 

So what's it going to be? Compromise or self-destruction?

[Haratik]

Closest thing I've seen to a proverbial warning shot across the bow.

Blackie's made the most valuable compromise I've seen so far, and DeathGenie's post echoes much of what anyone with a sentiment for the underdog would want. Props to you guys for your stance.

[Lord Roberts]

Pirates have it way too easy right now, they are just another faction and a lot more ways to exploit to get more xp/gold, they need to have a handicap and not be as power or more powerful as a nation.

[Ruthless4u]

Pirates as implemented currently are a bad joke.

I was hoping to switch over once I learned the ropes for something more challenging, unfortunately it looks like change is unlikely.

[Black Bart]

only rading.. crafting should be only for frigates, and not a crafting 3rd rate of the line   and a pirate vision would never be with larger guns. it would get mobility and speed.. you cant get and cap another ship if they sail from you aye maty !!!

 

what hard would it be, if pirates just craft there ships of the line ?? nahhh they never done that... its "very hard" and demands a grp to take down a line ship and cap it, wich means teamwork.  els pirates are just another nation in black

 

 

unable to craft line ships, gets -% in crafting/trading and +% in sailing/boarding.

 

ups and downs

 

 

Safe winds

Edited February 14, 2016 by Black Bart

[drogoran]

uncapturable pirate ports spread out across the map

 

no port capping only raiding

 

crafting everything that can be found in the port store

 

posibly pirate versions of ships like the pirate frigate

 

bam pirates just went from a nation to a unpredictable menace that could in theory strike from anywhere at any time

[Black Bart]

If you remove pirates ability to craft larger ships i will uninstall game

 

lol bye maty, go play a carebear game, or world of warships....  you a that type of person who ruin most games because "to hard for casual" seen it over and over.. cry cry and cry until Dev makes it faceroll, quest mission crafting or all shall have acces to end game.

[Lyteros]

I find it pretty ridiculous how some people seemingly just want to push pirates down by whatever means, then call for pirates beeing more "historically accurate" and invoke "realism" as reason. It seems to summarize and translate into: weak and useless.

The same people then get mad when pirates actually play like pirates and take abusive game mechancis for their advantage.

 

There is absolutely no problem at all having different (!) game mechanics to make factions unique etc, but plain taking away options is boring and stupid, it is no meaningful addition in the game and will weaken and over time kill the affected faction.

It makes a faction just boring and weaker, thus it will not be taken due to better options and bleed players until it reaches a point where it is so weak everyone will leave. All the "historically it was..." argumentations are kind of cute when you realize this is a online game, where people paid money to have fun...

You want to play hardmode? Well its your decision to buy / build ships of the line or set for yourself the restriciton to do not. You don't want piratse to attack ports? - Then Don't participate?

If you really wanna go historical, by all means do that. For the beginning I suggest: for the next 3 weeks consume stale and occasionally bacteria infested water while eating only hard and somtimes moldy bread, and if you are lucky there might be some insetcts as protein sorce in it. And don't forget to spend time outside at night in wet clothes while it is raining and a cold wind blows. Oh and no more medicine, that would be cheating.

 

 

Now to beeing a bit more constructive:

If there is meaningful choice and customization per faction yes, but not just by only taking stuff and options away. It becomes autowin for one side while the other dies.

• Pirates should not get higher tier line ships? Fine, but provide alternative mechancis to combat the lack of strength there. Probably improved frigates that are really mean when going for captures (like: fast, overcrewed with bonus to boarding combat so they can take on 2nd / 3rd rates with their huge crews... priates live from boarding and got experience with that after all. Combined boarding / additional pirate-boarding equipment or something also would help).
• Reduced availability and strenght of line ships automatically changes the port battle mechanic anway, since raw firepower will be lower, so if pirates manage to capture a port it was harder and more work than nationals with a load of lineships. Just raiding ports for loot becomes probably the better (time/effort/reward combination) option automatically.
• You want pirates to be weaker when building big ships? How about improving the ship capture and modification options to offset it? (Since you have to capture you cant select what exactly you want to minmax on build, which everyone else can)
• You want pirates to not become deathblobss (aka what every national group does daily)? Probably strengthen the game mechanics for solos or small pirate groups and make sure they can not just be wtfblobbed and ganked in minutes. This is happening all the time, because people can simply communicate in chat, in real time, form monsterfleets and go gank someone. They can just organize a good defense against a single pirate looking for 1v1 fights in seconds and blobb him to oblivion. (Hey how about the realism topic here? Remember how nelson used his trusty chat console to coordinate trafalgar? Good times.)
• And while everyone can become a pirate anytime, switching from pirate to something else is impossible right now. There could simply be an option to first become a privateer for a nation and after a while where only the nations enemies were attacked and not the nations ships, you can join up.

 

TL;DR: Different mechanics are fine, but there have to be meaningful choices with a somewhat balanced foundation and tradeoff for every weakness, or its just utterly wrecking one nation which will die off because it's just worse than any other option.

[Black Bart]

I find it pretty ridiculous how some people seemingly just want to push pirates down by whatever means, then call for pirates beeing more "historically accurate" and invoke "realism" as reason. It seems to summarize and translate into: weak and useless.

The same people then get mad when pirates actually play like pirates and take abusive game mechancis for their advantage.

 

There is absolutely no problem at all having different (!) game mechanics to make factions unique etc, but plain taking away options is boring and stupid, it is no meaningful addition in the game and will weaken and over time kill the affected faction.

It makes a faction just boring and weaker, thus it will not be taken due to better options and bleed players until it reaches a point where it is so weak everyone will leave. All the "historically it was..." argumentations are kind of cute when you realize this is a online game, where people paid money to have fun...

You want to play hardmode? Well its your decision to buy / build ships of the line or set for yourself the restriciton to do not. You don't want piratse to attack ports? - Then Don't participate?

If you really wanna go historical, by all means do that. For the beginning I suggest: for the next 3 weeks consume stale and occasionally bacteria infested water while eating only hard and somtimes moldy bread, and if you are lucky there might be some insetcts as protein sorce in it. And don't forget to spend time outside at night in wet clothes while it is raining and a cold wind blows. Oh and no more medicine, that would be cheating.

 

 

Now to beeing a bit more constructive:

If there is meaningful choice and customization per faction yes, but not just by only taking stuff and options away. It becomes autowin for one side while the other dies.

• Pirates should not get higher tier line ships? Fine, but provide alternative mechancis to combat the lack of strength there. Probably improved frigates that are really mean when going for captures (like: fast, overcrewed with bonus to boarding combat so they can take on 2nd / 3rd rates with their huge crews... priates live from boarding and got experience with that after all. Combined boarding / additional pirate-boarding equipment or something also would help).
• Reduced availability and strenght of line ships automatically changes the port battle mechanic anway, since raw firepower will be lower, so if pirates manage to capture a port it was harder and more work than nationals with a load of lineships. Just raiding ports for loot becomes probably the better (time/effort/reward combination) option automatically.
• You want pirates to be weaker when building big ships? How about improving the ship capture and modification options to offset it? (Since you have to capture you cant select what exactly you want to minmax on build, which everyone else can)
• You want pirates to not become deathblobss (aka what every national group does daily)? Probably strengthen the game mechanics for solos or small pirate groups and make sure they can not just be wtfblobbed and ganked in minutes. This is happening all the time, because people can simply communicate in chat, in real time, form monsterfleets and go gank someone. They can just organize a good defense against a single pirate looking for 1v1 fights in seconds and blobb him to oblivion. (Hey how about the realism topic here? Remember how nelson used his trusty chat console to coordinate trafalgar? Good times.)
• And while everyone can become a pirate anytime, switching from pirate to something else is impossible right now. There could simply be an option to first become a privateer for a nation and after a while where only the nations enemies were attacked and not the nations ships, you can join up.

 

TL;DR: Different mechanics are fine, but there have to be meaningful choices with a somewhat balanced foundation and tradeoff for every weakness, or its just utterly wrecking one nation which will die off because it's just worse than any other option.

 

the only purpose for all these treads are that when you create a chart there is nations and (easy-very hard) to play... and atm none is easy/very hard to play... all are equal so either remove that (mode) and all are nations, or make nations unique, typical like you say, crafting for pirates would lead to faster ships, cuss needed.. and bonus to board.. we all tryed to capture AI bigger ships with smaller ships. so its not a problem  for pirates to get line ships.. 

[tipsypo]

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/10656-what-if-pirates-were-the-neutral-team/page-1#entry189103

gets my vote