>>>Core Patch 1.0 Feedback<<<

[Nick Thomadis]

2 minutes ago, o Barão said:

Won the 1910 campaign with the british but unlocked instead the 1920 german campaign.

If you won the 1910 then the next decade unlocked in 1920 and so on.

[o Barão]

2 minutes ago, Nick Thomadis said:

If you won the 1910 then the next decade unlocked in 1920 and so on.

No, the issue is i won the 1910 campaign with the british, but the game decided to unlock instead the 1920 german campaign for me.

I am still stuck in the 1910 british campaign.

[akd]

I see a pretty fundamental issue with the way battles are initiated in a campaign (rather than canned single battle) setting:

My first battle was an encounter between my 4x German CAs vs. 3x British CAs.  I entered the battle with only smoke sighted, and presumably it was the same for the British.  The British apparently started running as soon as the battle began, as I never gained visibility.  Also, they seemed to do the very artificial thing (based on the change in smoke bearing) where they constantly steer a course directly away from your nearest ship, rather than picking a direction of retreat that is connected in any way to the real world (e.g. a retreat in direction of home ports) that might allow you to make tactical decisions about pursuit, or complicate a retreat depending on the relative starting locations.

Questions this raises: How do I know exactly what I am facing if only smoke has been sighted?  How does the enemy know and make the decision to run before we even see each other?  Would 3x CAs retreat from 4x CAs in reality (or is this core problem of battles in a campaign being devoid of any real context, and so just artificially comparing some numbers)* Are the battle maps in any way connected to the campaign map, or will battles always take place in a strange open sea space with no connection to the campaign map?

 

*I would contend that the British would never have retreated in this circumstance historically, unless the cruisers were acting as a scouting force for a larger fleet and seeking to bring about a larger engagement by drawing the enemy deeper into friendly territory.  Campaign context matters more than comparing numbers in an artificial arena disconnected from the map.

Edited November 29, 2021 by akd

[Nick Thomadis]

20 minutes ago, o Barão said:

No, the issue is i won the 1910 campaign with the british, but the game decided to unlock instead the 1920 german campaign for me.

I am still stuck in the 1910 british campaign.

This is embarrassing... thank you we will fix tomorrow. 

[Nick Thomadis]

16 minutes ago, akd said:

I see a pretty fundamental issue with the way battles are initiated in a campaign (rather than canned single battle) setting:

My first battle was an encounter between my 4x German CAs vs. 3x British CAs.  I entered the battle with the only smoke sighted, and presumably it was the same for the British.  The British apparently started running as soon as the battle began, as I never gained visibility.  Also, they seemed to do the very artificial thing (based on the change in smoke bearing) where they constantly steer a course directly away from your nearest ship, rather than picking a direction of retreat that is connected in any way to the real world (e.g. a retreat in direction of home ports) that might allow you to make tactical decisions about pursuit, or complicate a retreat depending on the relative starting locations.

Questions this raises: How do I know exactly what I am facing if only smoke has been sighted?  How does the enemy know and make the decision to run before we even see each other?  Would 3x CAs retreat from 4x CAs in reality (or is this core problem of battles in a campaign being devoid of any real context, and so just artificially comparing some numbers)* Are the battle maps in any way connected to the campaign map, or will battles always take place in a strange open sea space with no connection to the campaign map?

 

*I would contend that the British would never have retreated in this circumstance historically, unless the cruisers were acting as a scouting force for a larger fleet and seeking to bring about a larger engagement by drawing the enemy deeper into friendly territory.  Campaign context matters more than comparing numbers in an artificial arena disconnected from the map.

Map Coordinates, at the moment affect the initial orientation of ships. Later they will affect retreat points and distant lands showing.

[o Barão]

2 minutes ago, Nick Thomadis said:

This is embarrassing... thank you we will fix tomorrow. 

No need to apologize. I am having fun in playing both campaigns. Important thing is to report this issues

[Defaultface]

Just trying out the 1920 campaign. Even after the buff it still seems to me that the germans don't get enough starting cash.

Even building outdated, slow and poorly protected ships (cheap as possible) you cannot even build half as many ships as the brits start with. Also I haven't checked but I guess the auto generate fleet probably still gives you more ships than designing yourself?

[Nick Thomadis]

5 minutes ago, Defaultface said:

Just trying out the 1920 campaign. Even after the buff it still seems to me that the germans don't get enough starting cash.

Even building outdated, slow and poorly protected ships (cheap as possible) you cannot even build half as many ships as the brits start with. Also I haven't checked but I guess the auto generate fleet probably still gives you more ships than designing yourself?

Can you show what you manage to build for a first turn, with Germans, in your custom fleet?

[o Barão]

5 minutes ago, Defaultface said:

Just trying out the 1920 campaign. Even after the buff it still seems to me that the germans don't get enough starting cash.

Even building outdated, slow and poorly protected ships (cheap as possible) you cannot even build half as many ships as the brits start with. Also I haven't checked but I guess the auto generate fleet probably still gives you more ships than designing yourself?

You are probaly building expensive ships. That is one reason i am enjoying so much the campaign. To build ships without going crazy in the budget, makes the whole process in design them much more interesting.

[SiWi]

1 hour ago, Nick Thomadis said:

This is embarrassing... thank you we will fix tomorrow. 

I had no 1920 campaign unlock (won both UK and german 1920)

thou maybe they don't count because I "won" though revolution 

edit: patch fixed it

 

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by SiWi

[SiWi]

24 minutes ago, o Barão said:

You are probaly building expensive ships. That is one reason i am enjoying so much the campaign. To build ships without going crazy in the budget, makes the whole process in design them much more interesting.

it surely gives more meaning to certain choices thou I think quality over quantity is still the way to go even if you are outnumber and blockaded for a while

[Hull_001]

I was playing as the British and I think the AI is definitely getting more funds. I built three battleships at 33 million each and 15 destroyers, five for 4 million and ten for 2 million. The AI builds 6 battleships at a cushy 45 million. He also made 11 light cruisers for 33 million which is nearly double the cost of my own. I didn't get a look at the price tag of 3 Battlecruisers and the 8 Heavy Cruisers.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Hull_001

[Defaultface]

53 minutes ago, o Barão said:

You are probaly building expensive ships. That is one reason i am enjoying so much the campaign. To build ships without going crazy in the budget, makes the whole process in design them much more interesting.

To some extent you may be right.... but I am trying to build economically. Maybe I will post a screenshot of what I manage later, I'm still fiddling with designs. but after the first run of designs, and then a second set of more budget designs I'm still struggling to see how to stretch the money much further.

For example right now the cheapest BB design I have is about 14 million, and it's all around mediocre. Maybe I could rebuild the ones I used in the 1910 campaign (btw it would be nice to be able to save the designs from Campaigns as well) which were around 11-13 million IIRC and were good ships in that campaign but might be undergunned with only 12" guns in the 1920 campaign. so let's say I build 3 of these for 35 million.

Then building a CA around the 9" or 10" guns, 25 kts, lowest tonnage, medium bulkheads, medium range, No barbette citadel or torp protection upgrades, no engine upgrades, no reloading or ammo upgrades, the most basic rangefinder etc and you're still somewhere close to 10 million. Putting basic versions of some of the upgrades in brings it to maybe 11-11.5 mill. That also isnt even using up the tonnage limit of the smallest tonnage version of the hull. lets say I build 4 of these for 40 million.

Thats 75 of 90 million spent  for 3 BBs and 4 barebones CAs. That leaves 25 million for CLs and DDs. Maybe you can build equally barebones CLs for around 6 million and DDs for around 2.5 or 3 (right now my CLs are coming out to 8 and DDs at 4 but they could definitely be made cheaper). So that gives me some mix of maybe 2 or 3 CL's and 4 or 5 DD's. I also have built 0 BC's.

In summary building mostly very very basic ships: 3BB, 4 CA, 2 CL, 5 DD

That gives me those ships vs the AI's current 5 BB, 3 BC, 11 CA, 17 CL, & 24 DD

From my experience in the other campaigns the AIs ships while sometimes poorly built and sometimes not, usually cost more than my designs, and also come with trained crews which I don't get either.

Edit: I checked and in this campaign the AI's CL's cost 15.9 million. At 17 CL'S thats 272 million just in CL's...

DD's cost 4.4 mill each. x 24 = 106 mill

Not that the campaign isn't winnable, it just makes the gameplay fairly unrealistic. In the 1910 campaign I basically built a similar ratio of ships as above to the enemy (although in 1910 I could build budget, but still pretty decent ships) and quickly lost 60% of transports because I got blockaded and didnt have enough presence to protect convoys I guess. But I was able to defeat their ships in almost every single battle without losses due to weak AI designs and bad tactics until there was a revolt from all the negative prestige I guess. The AIs poor ship design was RNG as in a previous campaign they had built the same amount of  much more dangerous ships which would have made things more difficult.

If you are able to come up with cheaper designs that aren't just totally barebones Id be interested to know how.

Edited November 29, 2021 by Defaultface

[SodaBit]

Alright, bit more feedback as I start the 1920's campaign.

Again, finances proves an issue. While the budget for the German navy has significantly improved, this still is not enough to provide adequate units to challenge the British navy, or even defend her own coasts from incursion. Since the goal is to challenge the Royal navy, and ultimately defeat them, it is only logical that German ships be superior to their British counterparts in order to give them a good chance at defeating their opposite number, and hopefully surviving long enough to either drive the enemy back, or sink more than a single British equivalent vessel, in a situation in which they are outnumbered. So, the notion that you can only afford 2 Battleships And Nothing Else at the start of the campaign is a bit ridiculous considering the long term goals in place here. While initial funds can be further increased to solve this issue, the fact that it is the exact same issue appearing a second time, after funding was increased to solve it the first time, I feel that a different approach should be taken. Until you get into battle against each enemy ship type, you simple don't know what it is they're fielding, thus it is reasonable to build your vessels to stand up to an absolute worst case scenario, that means designing your battleships to withstand 16" shells with a speed around 26 knots, having your cruisers proof against 8" shells and capable of 30 knots, and your destroyers being armed with the heaviest possible torpedos and having the fastest possible speed. (All these design considerations are with the 1920's campaign in mind) These measures would prove a waste of time if your enemy isn't fielding 16" guns, or only has a 20 knot battle-line, with cruisers at 26 knots, and lackluster torpedo defense across the fleet. In order to truly alleviate the issue of campaign finances, we Need To Know What The Enemy Has so that we can build our ships to counter it, and not over spend preparing for an absolute worst case scenario. This is how the Anglo-German Dreadnaught Race progressed historically, with both sides caught in a competition to build something better than the enemy, but neither side building anything lightyears ahead of the other, with the sole exception of Dreadnaught herself, which really sped things up a bit. The Germans didn't build anything with guns larger than 12" because they didn't need to until the British built something with 13.5" guns. I don't need to have a ship capable of withstanding 16" guns if all the enemy has is 12", and the money I save in reducing the armor to an acceptable level for 12" guns would give me more opportunities to expand other parts of my fleet.

[Hull_001]

I have about a million left over. The battleships costs 35 million each, the destroyers are the same prices as before, and the cruisers cost 15 million each. Also, do techs randomize? I swear I built modern cruisers on the initial run.

[Defaultface]

To build on what was said above: It would be fine if the germans even had enough cash to simply defend themselves at the start. If you could build a fleet so that you maybe don't have the capability to challenge the enemy, but good enough that you can at least defend your convoys to prevent the economy from collapsing, the first phase of the campaign could be spent gathering intel on what ships the enemy has built, while you research the techs and build the ships to be able to challenge them a year or a year and a half down the line. This would require better abilitys to control what your ships are doing/ how they are used or when they engage the enemy though which are currently not implemented.

[Nick Thomadis]

Problems with money after 1920 should happen with the own fleet creation, right? If you choose to auto-generate fleet, the results should be mostly sufficient.

[Defaultface]

 

Yes you get far more ships when you hit auto generate.

I just tested it and got 5 BB, 3 BC, 7 CA, 8 CL, & 7 DD.

If you add together the cost of these ships as the AI designed them you get to: 419 million.... far more than the 90 you get to build your own.

 

Edited November 29, 2021 by Defaultface

[Iuvenalis]

Love the little bit a got to try so far, but can someone help me out with some of the mechanics of the campaign map?

Why should I put a ship in port A vs port B?

Do I need to "defend" each port?

Do certain ports cover certain sectors of the sea? (Ex. my English channel ports only enter English channel battles?)

What does the "In being" vs. "Sea Control" choice do in game? (I understand the real life concepts)

If there's a guide post I missed and should be reading, point me to it.

 

Other than that, a solid start, Nick!

[Hull_001]

But why does the AI pull from a separate pool of funds from the player? I had 182 million, shouldn't both sides have roughly the same amount of funds regardless of fleet generation method?

[SodaBit]

2 minutes ago, Defaultface said:

 

Yes you get far more ships when you hit auto generate.

I just tested it and got 5 BB, 3 BC, 7 CA, 8 CL, & 7 DD.

If you add together the cost of these ships as the AI designed them you get to: 419 million.... far more than the 90 you get to build your own.

 

Quick suggestion here, but I think that for both factions in the campaign the amount you get to spend on designing your own fleet should be about the same as the total cost of the historical fleet.

[DougToss]

I'm also finding finances a bit tricky. I think auto-generating is somehow more efficient? A bit confused about it all tbh.

[SodaBit]

55 minutes ago, SodaBit said:

Alright, bit more feedback as I start the 1920's campaign.

Again, finances proves an issue. While the budget for the German navy has significantly improved, this still is not enough to provide adequate units to challenge the British navy, or even defend her own coasts from incursion. Since the goal is to challenge the Royal navy, and ultimately defeat them, it is only logical that German ships be superior to their British counterparts in order to give them a good chance at defeating their opposite number, and hopefully surviving long enough to either drive the enemy back, or sink more than a single British equivalent vessel, in a situation in which they are outnumbered. So, the notion that you can only afford 2 Battleships And Nothing Else at the start of the campaign is a bit ridiculous considering the long term goals in place here. While initial funds can be further increased to solve this issue, the fact that it is the exact same issue appearing a second time, after funding was increased to solve it the first time, I feel that a different approach should be taken. Until you get into battle against each enemy ship type, you simple don't know what it is they're fielding, thus it is reasonable to build your vessels to stand up to an absolute worst case scenario, that means designing your battleships to withstand 16" shells with a speed around 26 knots, having your cruisers proof against 8" shells and capable of 30 knots, and your destroyers being armed with the heaviest possible torpedos and having the fastest possible speed. (All these design considerations are with the 1920's campaign in mind) These measures would prove a waste of time if your enemy isn't fielding 16" guns, or only has a 20 knot battle-line, with cruisers at 26 knots, and lackluster torpedo defense across the fleet. In order to truly alleviate the issue of campaign finances, we Need To Know What The Enemy Has so that we can build our ships to counter it, and not over spend preparing for an absolute worst case scenario. This is how the Anglo-German Dreadnaught Race progressed historically, with both sides caught in a competition to build something better than the enemy, but neither side building anything lightyears ahead of the other, with the sole exception of Dreadnaught herself, which really sped things up a bit. The Germans didn't build anything with guns larger than 12" because they didn't need to until the British built something with 13.5" guns. I don't need to have a ship capable of withstanding 16" guns if all the enemy has is 12", and the money I save in reducing the armor to an acceptable level for 12" guns would give me more opportunities to expand other parts of my fleet.

The results of trying to built a fleet on only $90,000,000.

[beepboop6]

Unsure if you had patched it as the issue went away, but appears to have reappeared again. The update relationships bug is still prevelant. Like I said it disappeared, but has reappeared again halfway through another campaign

[ArtifaX]

Is it just me or the accuracy is completely busted... I'm not gonna argue how accurate guns were in 1890s (probably not that accurate), BUT:

1. Big ships sailing almost side by side within 1-2km should not be missing that much.

2. Miss pattern is a joke.. I was chasing a ship for a long while (like 1h in-game time). It shot over 1000 shells as i was slowly approaching and got 10 hits (which is weird but fine). But all those hits are 10-30m to the left or right. Spot on. It look ridiculous to the point that it felt like the ship had some kind of deflector field just guiding all shell to really close misses.

That 2nd one is killing immersion.. shells should be landing randomly in an area and not all be directed to immediate vicinity if rng calculated them as a miss..