Seasonal Patch: The Missing Links Part 1

[Aquillas]

2 hours ago, amosblanco said:

Why Xebec needs to be further buffed? It’s already too overpowered as a 6th rate... 🥶

Did you try to use it recently, after this patch? I am not a fanatic user of LRQ, but I am using 6th rates most of the times. After testing to fight with and against Xebecs, I agree with development team for this tuning. The strength of Xebecs, 2 years ago, was in fact in small ship upgrades. This is not true anymore, upgrades for 7th and 6th rates were nerfed a year ago, and some of them again with this patch.

As a consequence, some tuning can be made without dramaturgy. 😉

[Urchin]

1 hour ago, Gregory Rainsborough said:

I'm sure we've had this before...

Around and around we go. 

[Urchin]

2 hours ago, admin said:

• Full sails receive a penalty to turning and slightly increased penalty to mast thickness and hp.

So for 6th and  5th rates you basically have a choice between slow with improved turning but very little acceleration/deceleration and overall maneuverability or being instantly demasted.  

While these changes might work for SOL battles it significantly degrades the performance of smaller ships especially 6th rates. 

[Frosty]

Now make it easier to grind flags (not so much, just a little bit), like increase the chance of dropping flags per ship to, let's say, 20%, and make them last 10-14 days so RvR is more affordable even for those that don't want 10 people to waste 2-3 hours doing privateers once a week

We're definitely going in the right direction, again.

[Genevieve Malfleurs]

56 minutes ago, Urchin said:

So for 6th and  5th rates you basically have a choice between slow with improved turning but very little acceleration/deceleration and overall maneuverability or being instantly demasted.  

While these changes might work for SOL battles it significantly degrades the performance of smaller ships especially 6th rates. 

a decent rattlesnake does 11 kts on battle-sails and is agile as hell. what you want more?

[Urchin]

40 minutes ago, Genevieve Malfleurs said:

a decent rattlesnake does 11 kts on battle-sails and is agile as hell. what you want more?

A decent rattlesnake that must be a 15kt snake. Agility doesn't mean turn rate. 

[Conte D. Catellani]

Any plan to make Leopard more interesting? She is so beauty but she doesn't  have the success of the Rattvisian 

[Commodore Sixty Four]

5 hours ago, admin said:

• Turning curves changed slightly for more turning penalty at full speed and at less penalties at low speed.
  • Optimal turning zone is from 50 to 85% ship speed. With increased resistance the ability of rudder to turn the ship becomes worse due to resistance of keel
• Full sails receive a penalty to turning and slightly increased penalty to mast thickness and hp.

Definitely experienced this in battle instance with a L'Hermione using full sail and at high speed. When turning, it was almost like I could feel the keel biting through the keyboard! The turning circle was... impressive too.

I'm really enjoying the most recent changes. Fighting in battle instance has a lot more nuance and character now. Keep it up!

Edited August 27, 2020 by Commodore Sixty Four

[Aquillas]

2 hours ago, Urchin said:

So for 6th and  5th rates you basically have a choice between slow with improved turning but very little acceleration/deceleration and overall maneuverability or being instantly demasted.  

While these changes might work for SOL battles it significantly degrades the performance of smaller ships especially 6th rates. 

Did you test it really? Probably just a feeling, isn't it?

I did fought in small ships, in Le Requin, Niagara, Snow or even Privateer, against fleets including ships of the line in enemy side, as in below video.

• I rarely was dismasted (one time only).
• I never was stuck by wind shadows,
• I sustained damages even by 1st rates without being obliged to break the fight (angulation, show bow to be a tiny target, etc.)
• I was often focused by enemy, as being an "easy target" (LOL).

On the fight below, I got 25% of the kill of a Wappen von Hamburg, while being in a Privateer.

• The player placed all his fleets on my sails to try and immobilize me: no way!
• He tried to dismast me: no way!
• @Genevieve Malfleurs was present too, he was not sunk and not dismasted.
• The other privateer in the fleet was not sunk and not dismasted.

But we do not pretend to stay sides by sides with a first rate and fight at pistol range... If you do so, obviously, you just go into the waves. 

With this patch, sailing in 7th and 6th rates is even more efficient than previously. It may be needs a bit learning some know-how... For being convinced of it, just try, in a Rattlesnake for example. By the way, to answer another post, no Rattlesnake can reach 15 knots by now, very few ship can do (probably not fit for fight, poor paper ships without repairs and without gun). For this test, don't use a fir/fir ship, unless you just want to prove that you can't survive...  

 

You can also check the video I placed here above in page 22 (linked below)

https://forum.game-labs.net/topic/36996-seasonal-patch-the-missing-links-part-1/?do=findComment&comment=741235

 

[Sir John]

I'm really enjoying advances in combat dynamics like wind shadows, and I am one of many people very excited to see what Sea Legends has to offer.  

On 8/21/2020 at 12:04 PM, admin said:

Wind shadow is perfect and all professional sailors said it is almost exactly the same in real life.

That being said, with respect, this claim is clearly false. 

Multiple professional sailors have posted in this thread, and all of the opinions I saw from them contradict what you say (and also went unanswered). Like I said in my last post, I appreciate the introduction of wind shadows, but they're too strong, and they weren't a significant factor in naval warfare. +1 to @CaptLouis' comments

For reasons outlined by CaptLouis, period sources (both scientific and anecdotal) are utterly silent about this. The circumstances in which wind shadow could have a significant effect are either not simulated in Naval Action or present a commander with much more pressing issues than some bad wind. Furthermore, contemporary sources describe standard methods for vessels to come within hailing distance, one to windward and the other to lee, and even things like boarding an enemy to windward, which should be the worst-case if what you say about wind shadows is correct.

Some effects should, of course, stay. While there are no sailing first-rates today, I think it's safe to assume that no sloop could safely sail under the lee of a ship of the line and expect to continue sailing. However, as I said above, the commander of a sloop who sails close enough under the lee of a larger ship for that to happen has more significant problems to worry about regardless of whether it be friend or foe.

 

On 8/21/2020 at 8:31 PM, admin said:

No. There will be a separate post on this tomorrow during hotfix. The sail power increase in proportion to sail raise is 100% perfect according to sources. 

On 8/22/2020 at 7:34 AM, admin said:

Sails work the following way.

Every additional square ft (meter) of sails give less and less power when added (lower utility). First 10% of sails give approximately 30% of speed. Last 10% of sails give almost no speed bonus and could even slow you down (by increasing heel, screwing your rudder position and keel position creating additional leeway that need to be corrected constantly). The specific relationship was described in several seamanship treatises and shipbuilding books. We have implemented this relationship.

As a result like in real life you don't need full sails to sail fast. Extra sails are needed if you need to squeeze extra half knot during chase, but during battle you can get everything at battle sails. Just like in real historical battles. 

This second claim is also ridiculous, for no period source would attempt to make such a rule or quantify that effect. It's impossible even today to make universal laws for the effect of different sails, since the actual impact differs almost as wildly from ship to ship as it does in different wind or sea conditions. 

It's not at all clear what you mean in your explanation: what are the first 10% of sails?  what are the last 10%?  These were by no means static or universally accepted things.

I agree with your final paragraph, and you're right about increased heel being a significant reason to avoid packing on extra canvas, especially such lofty sails as topgallants and royals.  I don't completely know what you mean by screwing rudder or keel positions. 

[DDZ_Vasduten]

@admin

These are all awesome tweaks to an excellent set of corrections.

Long missing and now they're IN!

 

I noticed a weird bug though... in the Le Req last night. As soon as you go to battle sails from full or stop, the ship immediately turns without any rudder input. 

Like 30 degrees just because the wind is hitting the front sail. I think it needs a look and a fix. Probably something relating to battle sail tweaks... but there is no reason the LE Req should lurch in any direction just because you change to less sail.

The 2 pounders were great for killing crew from behind, (really their only solid role,) but now you can't adjust sails at all while sailing behind someone or your ship spins out of control as soon as you hit "s".

Battle sails used to be the best way to get control on the Le Requin... what happened?

[admin]

21 minutes ago, Sir John said:

1 That being said, with respect, this claim is clearly false. Multiple professional sailors have posted in this thread, a

 

2 This second claim is also ridiculous,

No. Multiple pro sailors helped us design it and define its size and strength. Ideas of the armchair game designers are of no value to us. Our wind shadow is the only and the best representation and it works extremely well in game. This is how we want it to have proper impact.

On the battle sails
What are you talking about? - ridiculous? It was derived as formula in several period seamanship books and manuals. In fact in 2 early 19th century seamanships treatises there are special dedicated sections on this (sail area in relation to speed).  We know people know of this formula (including @Aquillas) The fact that you deny this, claiming the sources never give this formula shows that you have no idea what are you talking about.

Using phrases like "false" or "ridiculous" when knowing obviously show your true colors. Please avoid giving advice here from now.

 

[DDZ_Vasduten]

" they weren't a significant factor in naval warfare." LOL


Sure.. Sure they weren't.

[admin]

27 minutes ago, Sir John said:

I don't completely know what you mean by screwing rudder or keel positions. 

I will help you "Feudalism". Heel changes rudder angle in relation to water. Heel changes underwater shape and dynamics and old ships were not designed properly to counter for that in the correct way.

You should maybe read books on ship design and talk to sailors and sail yourself instead of playing a cheap student made family tree with banished. You dont have even to read books, the downsides of excessive heel are even on youtube in short comfortable form

 

 

[DDZ_Vasduten]

So... are the xebec battle sails going to get a second look? 
Please?
 

It was the first DLC I got... and it's one of my fave ships in the game. Please don't tell me it's gonna just turn violently every time I go to battle sails. I'm worried.

[admin]

49 minutes ago, Sir John said:

 

I am a professional tall ship sailor.

Professional sailors know how excessive heel affects the boat. If you are truly one you don't need to ask about downsides of the excessive heeling on Any boat. Because excessive heel screws up rudder work, changes course and makes other problems.
 I don't completely know what you mean by screwing rudder or keel positions. 

 

[admin]

16 minutes ago, DDZ_Vasduten said:

So... are the xebec battle sails going to get a second look? 
Please?
 

It was the first DLC I got... and it's one of my fave ships in the game. Please don't tell me it's gonna just turn violently every time I go to battle sails. I'm worried.

i will check

 

[DDZ_Vasduten]

Thanks!
 

[Liq]

5 hours ago, Koltes said:

@admin Is twitching Trinco fleet in planning? It is way too hard to be tied with RVR.
Flags = RVR activity
Chests = ability to fight PBs competitively

Specifically:
1. Tag is the problem (ship is surrounded by AI)
2. Tagged ship is cut off from the wind and cant move
3. With high pen from sharp angles the tagged ship is 75% chance to die
4. Sometimes to get a single flag we have to grind 3-4 fleets = potentially loosing 3-4 1st rates 

we have done a couple now with 5-9 guys and never lost a single ship (one got boarded but we captured it back), theyre still fine IMO

[Frosty]

Why did you ban Sir John for providing constructive feedback? Nice.

[admin]

33 minutes ago, Frosty said:

Why did you ban Sir John for providing constructive feedback? Nice.

Frosty you are blowing the wrong horn this time

sir john - ban evader- formerly known as feudalism is an active member and a supporter of a development team on a another sailing game. His chosen language was deliberate to insult and demean the product for the sake of insulting (like calling something false - like the battle sail formula - without providing facts or while knowing that that fact is true).

Because of his role on another dev team - The ban is justified and anyone who defends that guy will follow his way out of the door. 

[DDZ_Vasduten]

*deleted to keep my nose out of this bullshit*

Edited August 27, 2020 by DDZ_Vasduten

[admin]

11 minutes ago, DDZ_Vasduten said:

lol you mean "the pro racing tall-ship sailor"?

The guy who had "a couple years'" experience racing ships who didn't understand how heel would affect the rudder and assumed that nobody bothered to care about wind shadows in the age of sail as a combat tactic or even a factor in naval battles?

Big lulz
 

indeed. any basic search provides 10 beautiful short videos on how heel affects rudder. ser john definitely unmasked himself when he claimed rudder is not affected by heel 

 

I really hope that the other sailing game team does not get derailed by armchair designers like we were initially

[DDZ_Vasduten]

I had no idea there were competitors in here trolling.

[Yachteru]

I dont know what went on in the months im gone but for global to be removed I guess it must be pretty bad. 

Then I had an idea, what if we removed all the chats in pvp and only had signal flags to communicate primarily.

•  Eg. Pirate player A sees Pirate player B with a chase flag icon, and Pirate player B is behind British player A.
• British player A is flying the signal flag for reinforncement, Pirate player A and B can see that.
• British player B happens to pass and sees the reinforcement flag, and activates the attacking signal flag to tag pirate players.
• British player A sees that British player B has attacking signal flag and can change a flag to a "thanks signal" or also signal "attacking" so British player B knows A will be attacking too :3

Then when you enter a port, there is a local chat there but it is not global, everything happens in that port only.