Seasoned Woods poll

[erelkivtuadrater]

16 minutes ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Too bad they don't drop from chests you get from PVP...on the PVP server...

if the drop rate is correctly balanced so its not the preferred way to get them it could work

[Hullabaloo]

17 hours ago, admin said:

Costs of power growth will no longer be gradual and will be exponential. This is the only way to balance power in MMOs.

I accept that this is probably true. Perhaps we need to accept that big rich clans will always have better ships, maybe that's just what all mmos are like?

When people (examples on this thread) try to attribute their success on skill despite these advantages though, I find that amusing. It is a well documented trait of human behaviour and psychology that people tend to dismiss the obvious advantages they have and prefer to account for their success on their ability, often to the point of delusion. When you win a fight it is never because the you had better upgrades, woods, books, more slots, it is always: "We would have won anyway cos we played better and the bonuses didn't make that much difference". 

So a bit of a reality check is required: It is NOT a level playing field out on the seas, and it makes a bloody huge difference, that is something we are just going to have to accept I think.

The only thing I don't understand is why this added content must always confer advantage? Why can't it confer difference? If seasoned fir was even faster but also even softer and more prone to splintering, then yes that could be good. But when every introduction of new content just adds yet another stat bonus to be stacked, where will we end up?

[erelkivtuadrater]

6 minutes ago, Hullabaloo said:

The only thing I don't understand is why this added content must always confer advantage? Why can't it confer difference? If seasoned fir was even faster but also even softer and more prone to splintering, then yes that could be good. But when every introduction of new content just adds yet another stat bonus to be stacked, where will we end up?

Ironclads 😎 USS Iowa dlc coming in 10 years?  

Edited December 3, 2019 by erelkivtuadrater

[Rook]

If we could get a complete revamp of the damage model, where ship Hitpoints are not the deciding factor in a ship sinking, thus losing, then this idea of seasoned woods could be viable. As things stand now though, it's as others have said, the addition of seasoned woods is just widening the gap between low quality and high quality ships. Where high quality ships with their thicker sides and higher damage absorption (not to mention skill books and upgrades) stand a much better chance of winning in an, otherwise, balanced engagement.

Some thoughts on this revamp:

- Change structure to be the tankiest part of a ship, with a drastically increased amount of hitpoints. As ships fight battles, and take heavy damage, the structure reduces and is unable to be repaired to maximum value. Creating a kind of "durability". This makes structure important long-term, where, only ships that have seen many battles, or several very difficult battles, will have a reduced structure (invisible to the enemy) and are at risk of sinking, if subjected to more heavy broadsides. Here, seasoned woods could have their day in the sun, increasing overall durability and longevity of a ship.

- Armor is less important to tanking damage, and more about preserving crew and internal equipment. As armor is reduced, the crew begin taking heavier losses from unchecked cannon fire, and cannons become much more likely to be disabled in a fight. As well, systems like the pumps and rudder are much more likely to be instantly disabled by a well grouped broadside or raking fire. Think of armor simply as the planking and structure around the gundecks. While it is not rendered in game, repeated battering may eventually knock away entire sections of planking around gunports, exposing crew to grape shot.

- Damage: The deciding factor of a battle is the availability of cannons and men to fight them, as well as damage to critical systems (i.e. Masts, Pumps w/ heavy flodding). Upper masts (especially top-gallants and royals) could be made more fragile, while reducing effective range of chain-shot. Flooding from waterline hits and damage to structure could be more likely; while the flood rate would be reduced, but require more crew assigned to Survival to keep flooding in check. The key here would be, as long as there is a pump, and there is crew to man it, the flooding could be kept to a minimum for a prolonged engagement, but the reduced gun crews would be felt.

- Repairs: With the ability of a ship to sustain larger amounts of gunfire without sinking directly, the repair system can be updated to a reduced "tankiness". Instead of recovering a ship to perfect fighting trim, it could simply be a patch up. Some cannons are uprighted (a % of total cannons lost), holes in the armor patched. Crew repair would be a percentage of overall losses. Sail/Rigging repair would be limited (less mast replacement). Personally, I would like to see the entire repair system revamped as well. However, with the current system, simply reducing the effectiveness of repairs would be a good start, especially in the article of mast and cannon replacement. The trade off is a ship that stays in the fight much longer without the need for extensive repairs, if at a much reduced combat efficiency.

The goal of this system would be to increase the survivability of ships, without increasing their overall fighting ability and making 1vs1 battles take ages. Instead, a good fighting captain could still defeat an enemy in short order, by disabling them, reducing their armor, crew, and cannon, then boarding them. Boarding actions would then be the order of the day, if you truly wanted to silence a ship.

I'm sure there are some factors that I'm not considering here, but this is just a rough outline.

[Captain2Strong]

no to both questions

3 hours ago, Lukas97Austria said:

Lol well you made a point.  I personally would more enjoy when everyone has easy access to everything. Yes. It's like giving free candy's. But pvp would be more fun for me atleast 

that's what a game is supposed to be

Edited December 3, 2019 by Captain2Strong

[van Veen]

2 hours ago, Rook said:

If we could get a complete revamp of the damage model

Oh, please... !

[William Death]

6 hours ago, Durin said:

cmmon guys, its like youre saying "that fully epic equipped warrior is so much better in everything compared to my blue and green crap equipment, its so unfair. yeah he spend hundreds of hours in high end doungeon raids to get the stuff, but i as a new player should have all that epic goodness instantly so i dont have to fight an uphill battle"

Do you want to play a game that rewards skilled play, or do you want to play a game where fancy gear makes the difference in a fight?

 

Because one of these things is not like the other .

 

I can beat any noob in a seasoned ship, with my non-seasoned ship. Thats not an issue. One-on-one PvP fights aren't relevant to the discussion. Go to the battle results threads and see how many noobs lose frigates to Snows and Hercules. Or how many first rates were sunk with a third rate. 

 

Where the issue lies, is in RvR.  Naval Action punishes the losers in RvR so hard (you lose your main crafting port and its GG; there is no recovery from that unless some other nation comes to bail you out), that you must win every important RvR fight. And to ensure you win every important RvR fight, you must have your best players in that battle, all sailing the best gear.  Conclusion: to RvR, you must have seasoned wood ships.

Its quite a grind to get seasoned woods. From my understanding, you'll have to PvE grind quite a bit to get them. I hate PvE. Sure, I could take a fleet of players and sit next to where I think someone else is going to do that PvE, and attempt to hunt those, but we'd probably end up just sitting there for a few hours, wasting time. No fun.

 

Now, assume I have replaced my fleet of standard wood ships, with seasoned wood ships. I'll only sail seasoned wood ships then. Any player worth his salt will be in the same position. 

Adding these woods did not add any depth to the game. It only created a grind wall. Eventually that grind wall will be passed, and most good players and good clans will be in seasoned ships. 

Only the quality of combat will drop, because people don't like to lose expensive ships. Remember when ships were cheap, and upgrades weren't so overpowered? People sailed out, fought, sunk, said "GG," and came back out of port again in another ship. Because they had access to good ships, at a good price, and they wanted fights. I remember those times. I miss those times. Fine woods v2.0 was a step in the wrong direction.

Edited December 3, 2019 by William Death
This post got cut off, and it double posted below. But its fixed now.

[William Death]

What should have been done, is something like what Fluffy Fishy had suggested: the implementation of green wood.

I'd add a twist to that: Place green wood into the shops at free towns, in unlimited supply. When you select the option to build a ship with green wood, the requirement for a permit goes away.  So you could build any craftable ship in the game with green wood, but it'd have worse-stats than a player-built ship, but more reliable quality than what you might capture off of AI.

 

The historical argument against it has already been made too: ALL warships were built of seasoned wood (with a few exceptions). Building an expensive warship from inferior green wood wouldn't make a lot of sense, unless your nation was running out of wood.

Furthermore, seasoning isn't sorcery. You cut the timber, stack it in the shed, keep it semi-dry, and re-arrange it once in a while. After a year or three, your timber is seasoned. If you absolutely had to use some green wood in your ship, you could use it where it mattered less, like deck beams or interior planking.

Edited December 3, 2019 by William Death
Accidentally Double Posted, but I made it work.

[admin]

5 hours ago, Angus MacDuff said:

Too bad they don't drop from chests you get from PVP...on the PVP server...

I agree - they should drop from PVP

 

[s2bu]

On 12/2/2019 at 7:20 PM, admin said:

Costs of power growth will no longer be gradual and will be exponential. This is the only way to balance power in MMOs.

TBH I still firmly believe that the theory of improving balance by adding a new top tier even at ridiculous cost is utter nonsense. But as you claim this to be the only way (or standard procedure) to balance power in MMOs I would like you to name 1 or more examples of games that have successfully pulled this off.

So if your claim is valid there should be tons of games that have:
 - added a higher level of gear that was even harder to get than the "old" best gear and
 - doing this somehow improved balance (as in the introduction acted as equalizer)

As long as the economically more powerful side doesnt go all out on pouring its resources into this new top tier gear but matches the weaker side's investment into "old tech" and only puts the surplus into the new stuff it will never risk bleeding out economically and being overwhelmed by cheaper but inferior stuff that just comes in "huge" numbers (compared to the new top tier stuff). Instead they will eventually at some point have better gear, which then will tilt the balance even further in their favor. So if the addition of ridiculously expensive gear actually leads to the previously more powerful side to lose its advantage the root cause for this is not the addition of the new stuff but that side making a stupid nub mistake.

I'm always eager to learn - surprise me.

Edited December 3, 2019 by s2bu

[Proka]

@admin can you change so seasoned wood drop from sealed bottles too ? i opened few but just got normal woods

[Farrago]

1 hour ago, admin said:

I agree - they should drop from PVP

 

You should make that suggestion in the Suggestions section. Lol

But seriously,  I may never craft another ship because as a player in a low population time zone I can hardly control my own port destiny or ownership, but it would be nice to obtain some of these woods to sell.

[Hullabaloo]

17 hours ago, William Death said:

I can beat any noob in a seasoned ship, with my non-seasoned ship. Thats not an issue. One-on-one PvP fights aren't relevant to the discussion

There was lot in your post I agree with but not this. We can all beat noobs in inferior ships that's not the point. Solo and OW PvP is what most people do. Most play in small groups. They should have the option to be a small group of players who craft and play together if that's how they want to play (maybe they don't want to be in a big clan) AND be competitive! Sure, they won't be able to produce ships in the quantity a big clan will and perhaps they would be crafting mainly Wasas and Trincos etc but those few Wasas and Trincos that they DO make should be just as good as the ones the big clans make imo. ALL players should have access to these bonuses, just in smaller quantities.  This is the important thing for me. 

I've played this game for years and I tell you, if the day ever comes that I stop getting Port Bonuses at my shipyard or I have to play with people I don't even really like because it's the only way I can source competitive ships (believe me, I know MANY players in this situation already), I will quit the game until it's fixed. That cannot be healthy for player retention.

I used to play Eve online and was into the small ship solo pvp faction warfare stuff (i'm too old to compete in that now, its too fast!). I was in a small clan but we were all totally self sufficient. I had one account but with a bit of trading and looting I could pay my way. This meant that in the big scheme of things in New Eden I was a tiny speck of dust. But, when I was in my frigate in a plex against another guy, it didn't matter if he was Goon or Pandemic Horde, I was in a ship that could compete and I had a chance to win.

We are beginning to lose this in Naval Action.

[Angus MacDuff]

32 minutes ago, Hullabaloo said:

Most play in small groups. They should have the option to be a small group of players who craft and play together if that's how they want to play (maybe they don't want to be in a big clan) AND be competitive! Sure, they won't be able to produce ships in the quantity a big clan will and perhaps they would be crafting mainly Wasas and Trincos etc but those few Wasas and Trincos that they DO make should be just as good as the ones the big clans make imo. ALL players should have access to these bonuses, just in smaller quantities.  This is the important thing for me.

Me too! I'm in a very small clan and it's only thanks to the extended friends list that I can have a shipyard now.  With the introduction of SW, I don't want to build a ship till I can use the best mats.  I still don't know how long this will take, but I'm hoping the Shed permits will start going up for sale soon or start dropping from Captain's Chests, which is the best I can generally get.

[William Death]

12 hours ago, Hullabaloo said:

[snip]

Re-reading what I wrote, perhaps I wasn't so clear in that point. 

I was pointing out that several folks in this thread have come at it from the angle "Hurr-durr you need to stop metagaming so hard and just sail a regular [trash] ship, let skill win the day."  Well that sort of works on a very small 1v1 or 2v2 3v3 etc. scale; especially when the skill gap is large. I was just trying to emphasize that the biggest impact of seasoned woods is not on the solo/small group player, but rather on the players who do RvR. Where you absolutely NEED those good ships in your fleet. Because 25 seasoned ships vs 25 legacy ships isn't much of a fight at all, if skill is even remotely equal. 

I didn't mean that I promote excluding small group players from having good ships as being ok. Because its not.

But if port bonuses are here to stay (as I think they are, sadly), then I think the only requirement to craft a ship with port bonuses should be being on the friend's list. Now that the list is able to contain more clans, space isn't so much an issue. As long as your clan contributes to the nation's cause, you get port bonuses. I like that the friend's list provides a way to punish clans who actively work against the interests of the nation (interests which are defined by the most powerful clan in the nation). And it seems that most nations have a catch-all clan that will take in anyone who asks for an invite, and they're generally on the friends list because a few of them will turn up for screening at each port battle. So that part of it works out usually. But I still don't like OP port bonuses.

 

With that being said, I've always been of the stance that good ships should be easily accessible by all players. Remove port bonuses and seasoned woods and it'll be that way.

Let skill be the deciding factor in fights, not gear. It was this way a long time ago. Most ship upgrade stackings were maximum +/-10% from the base stats, and most were very easily accessible. I'm still not sure why we moved away from that...

I'd say do away with seasoned woods altogether, remove port bonuses, and maybe even remove some upgrades too. 

[Quiet Assassin]

We already have...

31 mods for speed/turning

35 mods for survival (hit points/armor increases, etc.)

27 possibilities for random ship trim upon crafting (Very fast, strong rig, etc.)

12 port bonuses having to do with speed, mast/rig, hull

49 knowledge books improving speed or survival

And dozens more having to do with boarding, gunnery, and crew capabilities

Most of these require grinding to obtain, some quite time-intensive. The risk of getting ganked & losing all that work is high, especially for new/occasional players.

And now, we need to add another level to modify ships just to be competitive?? But only big clans will have realistic access?

What is needed is to simplify, not add more! Please allow noobs, occasional players, and solo hunters to have a chance to be competitive in a reasonable amount of time, without the need to join a clan. Some like it, some don't, but all are paying customers and have a right to explore different play-styles.

Level the playing field and please stop the "clan push," or this game will remain a small clique of followers playing in an ocean that should have hundreds more.

 

 

[Mad Dog Morgan]

26 minutes ago, Quiet Assassin said:

What is needed is to simplify, not add more! Please allow noobs, occasional players, and solo hunters to have a chance to be competitive in a reasonable amount of time, without the need to join a clan. Some like it, some don't, but all are paying customers and have a right to explore different play-styles.

Level the playing field and please stop the "clan push," or this game will remain a small clique of followers playing in an ocean that should have hundreds more.

 

 

What's needed is no mods at all,  port bonuses are more than enough. The first couple weeks after release were some of the best PVP experienced in the game because the playing field was level, no books, mods and super ships. 

 Yes brutal for new and casual players. Solo hunting is very possible with some experience if you don't mind sailing cheap small ships Privateer, Prince or Snow with little or no mods.  Living off the sea so to speak has it's own rewards. I build, craft, buy nothing except a few medium guns on occasion. Not that I'm poor, just how I prefer to play the game. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Mad Dan Morgan

[Stars and Stripes]

What's wrong with aspiring to get better ships and actively using mods to give yourself a better chance. If I play this game for 20 hours per week and I earn the rewards in mods and woods etc why cant I sail good ships. I have put the work in for them.

If someone else plays for 5 hours and has lesser ships....that's their choice. Don't reduce my rewards for hard work because it's not fair on new players or casuals who don't put in as much time as me.

This is the PVP server. I was a noob. I sailed alone. I learned and adapted.

I now try to get the best ship I can and fight and win or get sunk trying.

I like mods. I like port bonuses. I like the new woods. 

I own the DLCs and I enjoy sailing them. (And they give noobs and casuals the S/Woods for free).

The arguments about less mods and less choice and using skill is silly.

If you have less of everything, you have less choice. Less choice means less individuality and less freedom. We want more of everything, not less. Games which have less...die much quicker than those which have more.

What some players REALLY mean is that having less mods will give them an even greater advantage over players which aren't as good as them. Like noobs and casuals or less confident players.

Leave my mods and woods and port bonuses alone thanks. I work hard for them.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Stars and Stripes

[van Veen]

9 hours ago, William Death said:

With that being said, I've always been of the stance that good ships should be easily accessible by all players. Remove port bonuses and seasoned woods and it'll be that way.

Let skill be the deciding factor in fights, not gear. It was this way a long time ago. Most ship upgrade stackings were maximum +/-10% from the base stats, and most were very easily accessible. I'm still not sure why we moved away from that...

I'd say do away with seasoned woods altogether, remove port bonuses, and maybe even remove some upgrades too. 

^^ This!

But, since the bonuses are probably here to stay, it would already help to reduce them by a factor 4. Same with the seasoned woods.

Stacking of bonus of the same type should be capped. For example, speed bonus should be capped to 5%. You still can get bonus from rig sail force bonuses, but then that should be it. This de-values individual sources of bonus and brings more variety how to get a good ship. 

[Mad Dog Morgan]

20 minutes ago, Stars and Stripes said:

Leave my mods and woods and port bonuses alone thanks. I work hard for them.

Working harder for a kill 1v1 in a junk ship vs something superior is more rewarding but each to their own. 

[Lukas97Austria]

47 minutes ago, Stars and Stripes said:

What's wrong with aspiring to get better ships and actively using mods to give yourself a better chance. If I play this game for 20 hours per week and I earn the rewards in mods and woods etc why cant I sail good ships. I have put the work in for them.

If someone else plays for 5 hours and has lesser ships....that's their choice. Don't reduce my rewards for hard work because it's not fair on new players or casuals who don't put in as much time as me.

This is the PVP server. I was a noob. I sailed alone. I learned and adapted.

I now try to get the best ship I can and fight and win or get sunk trying.

I like mods. I like port bonuses. I like the new woods. 

I own the DLCs and I enjoy sailing them. (And they give noobs and casuals the S/Woods for free).

The arguments about less mods and less choice and using skill is silly.

If you have less of everything, you have less choice. Less choice means less individuality and less freedom. We want more of everything, not less. Games which have less...die much quicker than those which have more.

What some players REALLY mean is that having less mods will give them an even greater advantage over players which aren't as good as them. Like noobs and casuals or less confident players.

Leave my mods and woods and port bonuses alone thanks. I work hard for them.

Thats not true. Most of the good pvp players will die to "noobs". But look at there structure. In front of sinking. It was hard to get the structure so low. He pops a rep and it begins from zero. So yes. No books mods and upgrades would cause a different playstyle. And good players will more often catch sinking than now. I Mean I can see it by myself. If a guy has the same skill books and upgrades it works like it was in the first weeks of the game. But if you fight someone that hasn't its nearly impossible for him.  Also it's nearly impossible to lose to him (beside boarding) 

[Lukas97Austria]

Btw. If you talk about you spend hours to get something.    We have a lot end games in this game already. First the lvl to crew ships. 2nd the line of ships where main target is mostly 1st rate. 3rd an working economy that you can replace every ship you have. 4. The super cannons like bloomefields etc. 5. The mods we have in the game. And now we are topping at with s wood? So if we cut the s wood out or make it aviable for all. Where does your endgame content goes, when there is still more things in this game. 

Btw in shooters (most that I know) the weapons are the same mostly. And your mods just do slightly differences to them that you can make the gun work for your personal type of gaming.   So why would that not work for NA? 

[erelkivtuadrater]

started my new character with no books or upgrades i notice there is a HUGE difference in the upgrades i therms of repairing.

The math is easy with no mods you repair 25% of your ship over 2 mins. But with all repair mods and port bonuses, if im not wrong the limit for % repair is 50%?

so you repair 75% vs 25% of your ship over 2 mins its an insane difference.

[Lukas97Austria]

4 minutes ago, erelkivtuadrater said:

started my new character with no books or upgrades i notice there is a HUGE difference in the upgrades i therms of repairing.

The math is easy with no mods you repair 25% of your ship over 2 mins. But with all repair mods and port bonuses, if im not wrong the limit for % repair is 50%?

so you repair 75% vs 25% of your ship over 2 mins its an insane difference.

Finally someone that is not blind or don't know differences. Thanks mate. 

 

PS no offense to others 

[Stars and Stripes]

4 hours ago, erelkivtuadrater said:

The math is easy with no mods you repair 25% of your ship over 2 mins. But with all repair mods and port bonuses, if im not wrong the limit for % repair is 50%?

so you repair 75% vs 25% of your ship over 2 mins its an insane difference.

So your facing someone with all repair mods and port bonuses.

(No shooting, boarding, speed, turning, reloading, or hull or sail hit points).

You can only repair hull or sail every 12 mins. With nothing else at all, your dead.

If you max out on repair mods that's your choice.

While repairing what's the other doing?

Is he maxed out on speed? He escapes or keeps catching you).

Is he maxed out on shooting? (He out shoots you or with pen mods demasts you).

Is he maxed out on boarding? (He boards and caps you.)

I suppose you would find it just as unfair when he boards your ass with 5 boarding mods....

In the end you have choices and that's what's great about this game.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Stars and Stripes