Lets Make a Point for Crafting Medium Cannons

[LIONOFWALES]

Hello Naval Action Community.

Just thought to bring out an idea for making medium cannons more viable for trade and craft.

Medium cannons as they are now, hold very little economic value in game. They are craftable, yet these great cannons tend to only be available automatically in port. Of course there is the issue that NPC ships come with them but I think this dulls in respect to the value they could have in the trade/selling arena. Medium cannons are special to me because they have a shorter reload than longs and deliver even more applied damage to targets in game... they are a very good choice to have on frigates for those players that like to slug it out at medium range. The medium also has more range than the Carronade and can load double shot. A very viable choice indeed, the only advantage the Medium has over the 1 Pood is "double shot".

My suggestion for bringing a tradable value back to Medium Cannons in game is as follows...

#1 Remove the Medium Cannons from auto port availability.

#2 Replace with Cannon Seconds, or Used Cannons as the available in port cannon. They would look weathered and used, perhaps also consider limiting them so as not to allow these seconds to use double shot , or double charge. The use of old cannons is relevant because historically poorer nations would buy old cannons or even traders would buy older cannons or cannon seconds to equip to their trade ships. These older cannons were generally prone to malfunction as well, hence seconds... but cannon malfunctions may be a little too much to add in game for a cannon that already can not use "double shot", or "double charge" perks.

#3 Consider making the 1 Pood and 1/2 Pood craftable in game. " Optional".

Well... that's it, plain and simple.

Please post any of your thoughts regarding ideas for bringing a better value to mediums in Naval Action.

Three cheers for the frigates and their gallante Captains!

Edited March 16, 2019 by LIONOFWALES

[Cetric de Cornusiac]

Good idea. And as long as used cannons are always available at ports, nobody can complain about not finding cannons.

However, the claim which will probably be made here is, newbies who just can afford used cannons/ cannon seconds face another disadvantage when fighting the pros (on PvP war server) or NPC (on PvP peace server) who have the better artillery at hands.

[Ortac]

One way to make  a market for medium cannons is to craft them and undercut/sell by contract against the ai cannons listed in any port.

It does work if people can be troubled to do it.

[Anne Wildcat]

No.  You lose your ship, you may go to a port where you don’t have a ship and then buy a ship off auction.  Then cross fingers someone is selling medium cannons? Please no, do not get rid of ai selling medium cannons at port. If you want more selling of player made medium cannons, then just raise the selling price of the medium cannons sold by AI. But please do not get rid of AI selling them. 

[Liq]

10 minutes ago, Anne Wildcat said:

No.  You lose your ship, you may go to a port where you don’t have a ship and then buy a ship off auction.  Then cross fingers someone is selling medium cannons? Please no, do not get rid of ai selling medium cannons at port. If you want more selling of player made medium cannons, then just raise the selling price of the medium cannons sold by AI. But please do not get rid of AI selling them. 

perhaps current medium guns could get re-named as "default" guns; still being supplied by NPC

and allow players to craft a type of gun between current mediums and longs - guns which have a benefit to default guns but not that much focussed on range and precision

[Teutonic]

I personally like how it is now. You can sell medium guns at lower prices than the NPC store and still make a good profit.

I'm not against a change however.

[Socialism]

Would be nice if ports auto generated contracts for cannons and repairs and paid out decently.  Same thing for basic quality ships.  Hot spots like shroud or la tort would generate a bunch of contracts and players could just sail in and sell them directly to the shop.  

[Raekur]

4 hours ago, Anne Wildcat said:

No.  You lose your ship, you may go to a port where you don’t have a ship and then buy a ship off auction.  Then cross fingers someone is selling medium cannons? Please no, do not get rid of ai selling medium cannons at port. If you want more selling of player made medium cannons, then just raise the selling price of the medium cannons sold by AI. But please do not get rid of AI selling them. 

While I understand your perspective I would like to point out a few things.

If is is a new player than chances are he will have to go back to a basic cutter and beat on some 6th and 7th rates to earn enough reals to buy a ship, crew and guns anyway. During that time he would be able to collect at least a small variety of cannons from the ships he beat. 

If the player is a experienced one than chances are he has other ships that are already outfitted and the gun sale option is mute.

The real issue is for ship crafters who for some reason do not have a forge yet. This can occur with low rank players who are also low level crafters and do not have the money yet as building cannons is an all or nothing kind of deal, no option for partial loadouts due to lack of resources. 

On the other hand as was mentioned for medium guns, just craft and sell them for a little less than the AI. it just means that you have a hard ceiling for the price you can charge.

[LIONOFWALES]

10 hours ago, Ortac said:

One way to make  a market for medium cannons is to craft them and undercut/sell by contract against the ai cannons listed in any port.

It does work if people can be troubled to do it.

Yes... this is true, however if you do the math... the value for Longs and even Carronades is far higher than Mediums... Medium Cannons cost more to produce than Carronades, yet Carronades sell for higher in game prices do to the players being able to set higher prices for them. Also... Mediums are only slightly less expensive to craft than Longs... Medium Cannons, in order to aid cannon crafters in making profits in game, need to be built by the players, not just auto available for super cheap.

A super cheap cannon could be reflected in... Used Guns, or, Cannon Seconds instead of killing the medium market.

Also... the "base" cannons in port could be limited by... not being able to use double shot or double charge. This makes Mediums relevant for trade and commerce in game, and also supplies players with a cheap alternative, albeit at a cost, as the cheap in port guns would not be able to use the "double charge" or "double shot".

I understand how the undercutting works... its just that Carronades sell for very high... and Mediums very low. To offset the cost of risk involved in transporting Medium Cannons in an open world full of people wanting to take your stuff, the risk must be justified by being able to sell the Medium Cannons at higher prices.

I hope you understand.

Thank you for your input.

Edited March 16, 2019 by LIONOFWALES

[LIONOFWALES]

10 hours ago, Anne Wildcat said:

No.  You lose your ship, you may go to a port where you don’t have a ship and then buy a ship off auction.  Then cross fingers someone is selling medium cannons? Please no, do not get rid of ai selling medium cannons at port. If you want more selling of player made medium cannons, then just raise the selling price of the medium cannons sold by AI. But please do not get rid of AI selling them. 

I understand you concern entirely actually, this is a good point... perhaps all cannon classes could be available but... as Cannon Seconds only, having a limitation compared to mediums in not being able to use the Double Shot and Double Charge perks.

The craftable mediums on the other hand could use said perks...

This would ensure Cannons being available as a very cheap in port merchandise, perhaps even half the price of the mediums in port now. This would open up the market for Medium Cannon sales driven entirely by players.

I hope you can see this, as the economy is likely going to be the backbone of this game. At least that is what I see.

Thank you for your input.

[LIONOFWALES]

6 hours ago, Raekur said:

On the other hand as was mentioned for medium guns, just craft and sell them for a little less than the AI. it just means that you have a hard ceiling for the price you can charge.

I understand how this works very well, and appreciate you bringing this up... but the low prices just doesn't justify the means of risking an entire shipload of these medium cannons... the cost to profit bracket is too tight. Unless you are just taking them off NPC ships... then the cost to profit equasion is some what different. But coming from a player that always crafts his own cannons and sells them, there is little point right now in crafting them except to use. Right now the Longs and the Carronades are the only two ways for cannon crafters to make their money, the cannon crafters really need the Medium trade to help with economy.

I really appreciate your input, thanks for ideas.

 

Edited March 16, 2019 by LIONOFWALES

[LIONOFWALES]

11 hours ago, Routan said:

No auto get everything. 

The auto get everything does hurt the economies of games like this one...

[LIONOFWALES]

6 minutes ago, Routan said:

But why should everything be avaiable in every port? It is up to the players to find ports that make sence to go to. It will also be a great motivstor to the clan that have a single port, to build it up so other players will use it.

To create a central trade hub? I like this... this will likely be a side effect of clan based port control as well... cant wait to try that out.

I just really want the Medium Cannons back in the players hands regarding trade control... it is something we can craft, but has very little trade value, so low a trade value in fact that the cost to risk is not worth it. Especially on the PVP server. When this game becomes more populated, the only trade runs being made will be those that are worth the risk.

Edited March 16, 2019 by LIONOFWALES

[Marquês do Bonfim]

I definetly agree, medium cannons right now are not really loved as it should be, since it has perks that should be considered a good-rate cannon for that matter. About the used cannons idea, I think it would be cool to have something like that, make it SOLs and frigates uses medium cannons and 6th~7th rates NPCs, trade ships uses used cannons. 

Used cannons could also be lighter to carry, hence giving a speed boost for new players aswell. Mediums a little more heavier, could add 1~2% more damage and leave the reload rate as it is. Just rename it to something else. "Medium cannons" are really getting old.

[Thonys]

i agree with OP

for making medium guns only by players.

and mediums do not drop in the shop as if it is Christmas every day.

 

its better for trade and crafting

 

only the guns for the basic cutter should be free (available) in the shop.

 

 

[Sir Texas Sir]

17 hours ago, LIONOFWALES said:

#2 Replace with Cannon Seconds, or Used Cannons as the available in port cannon. They would look weathered and used, perhaps also consider limiting them so as not to allow these seconds to use double shot , or double charge. The use of old cannons is relevant because historically poorer nations would buy old cannons or even traders would buy older cannons or cannon seconds to equip to their trade ships. These older cannons were generally prone to malfunction as well, hence seconds... but cannon malfunctions may be a little too much to add in game for a cannon that already can not use "double shot", or "double charge" perks.

#3 Consider making the 1 Pood and 1/2 Pood craftable in game. " Optional".

As some one that has made a profit on cannons specially after wipes.  I really like the #2 as we all ready have basic cannons for the basic cutter (it's now a 3lb and takes no other guns).  I would say got with Used or Second hand Cannon are made by the Port and only supplied in the most common cannon size, anything else you need to buy from a player crafting them.   

#3 Poods should not be craftable unless they are restricted to only certain ships (like the 36 and 42 lbs cannons should be restricted to certain ships that used them only).   If they where to also do this they need to bring in other cannons made by other nations through out history with there own perks.  Some might have better accuracy others might have better pen, while others might do better at short range.   Though they need to be limited in some way.  The problem with Poods right now is they are supper cannons in there class and other than random drops or NYE gifts there is no other way to get them.

[Sir Texas Sir]

Just now, Routan said:

But if they could crafted all can have them.

They still need to be limited, like have to do a special mission to get the PB and can only use them on certain ships.  Other wise they would be all every one used.

[LIONOFWALES]

On 3/16/2019 at 6:07 AM, Sir Texas Sir said:

#3 Poods should not be craftable unless they are restricted to only certain ships (like the 36 and 42 lbs cannons should be restricted to certain ships that used them only).   If they where to also do this they need to bring in other cannons made by other nations through out history with there own perks.  Some might have better accuracy others might have better pen, while others might do better at short range.   Though they need to be limited in some way.  The problem with Poods right now is they are supper cannons in there class and other than random drops or NYE gifts there is no other way to get them.

Yes, the Poods are very strong in game... how can they cause so much damage anyway? I understand balancing mechanics, and these Poods can not use "Double Shot" or "Double Charge". But they just seem to do way more damage than they should. I mean... do these Poods have explosive shot or something?

Any way... my main concern is the mediums, why have something craftable and tradable/ sellable if we as players can not justify the trading or selling of said cannon because of PVP, open world risk. The potential profit must at least reimburse for the loss of the equipment and the open world risk in order for players to be willing to move goods in PVP ravaged waters. As of now, the mediums just aren't worth the risk to haul and sell in the PVP environment... if you know what I mean.

As for the Poods… I am ok with them being like a special combat reward or something... I just prefer being able to craft everything in game... but I am not all the players.

The Poods are really good for frigates, if you want to save weight and gain a little speed... use Poods, the DPM applied is insane.

Thanks for your input.

Edited March 18, 2019 by LIONOFWALES

[LIONOFWALES]

12 hours ago, Routan said:

And why would that be a problem? Could the same not be argued abouth carros ore long.

This is a logical response. I am with you when you state that all things should be craftable… at least with cannons/ guns. I am also not against having special PVP or mission rewards in game either... I am sure the Developers would need to take this one step at a time... even though I want this like yesterday. I apply the in game play time... the Devs apply their development plans, and hopefully consider some of these ideas.

Thank you for your argument. All input is appreciated regarding this.

[Thonys]

something to consider:

 

1.poods are most effective for certain frigate size ships.

and should only be used with the combination double charge...

2.guns are separate items what is not necessarily an item what is needed, you can sail without them if you want.

3.iron is very expensive in the days of sail and mostly if a ship was captured, they took the guns and sunk the ship ( apart from the trade what was on board.)

4.medium guns drop if it is rain in the game it is unnatural to be one of the most expensive items and become meaningless items because the price is dropped to zero.

this is not logical and actually.... well...dumb. (we throw a trading and meaningful item in the ..... overboard )

5.for the beginners in the game with the basic cutters and the 6 pounders medium gun that ship can have his guns for free, but only that ship.

perhaps we need      " basic cutter 6 pdr medium"      guns.(new in the game).

6. by not dropping mediums like flys, you making medium guns a part of the building and trade community what is an extra dimension and extra content useful to the game 

it is right under our nose and we aren't using it,

7.captains and players and outsiders see the opportunity but it is not used the

reason for that is the help the pvp guys got ,  as if they are a separate breath of people. who need instant help... (asked by those shouters, and given by the kind-hearted developers.

it is not needed. it cranks the trade business.

 

8. if you capture a ship:  you actually should have the option to take the guns out of it and sink the ship...

that could and should be.... the replacement for the drop of medium guns what we have in the game.

 

9. make medium guns recyclable....(in some way)  those guns wore out when used.

i have seen guns who became almost  double caliber ( 12pdr >18 pdr barrel diameter ) and were used for metal and glass only (they became unusable for a 12 pdr ) ball)

10. the game needs more gun types, brass and bronze guns, and howitzer sized guns.

with their own characteristics. 

11. in the ui of the ship (ship picture) we should see the type of guns we sail on the ship .

so we don't have to guess when we are in the OW sailing around seeing what kind of trade you have in the hold but not able to see what kind of guns you sail on your own bloody ship.

perhaps a separate tab for the layout of your ship? (like we have in EVE) 

not so difficult to code use the port icon also  in the  OW UI (and you can see the guns and upgrades on your ship anytime and throw them overboard if you want to do so for making speed if necessary) ([destroy]

 

greetings.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by Thonys

[StuntPotato]

On 3/15/2019 at 8:34 PM, Anne Wildcat said:

No.  You lose your ship, you may go to a port where you don’t have a ship and then buy a ship off auction.  Then cross fingers someone is selling medium cannons? Please no, do not get rid of ai selling medium cannons at port. If you want more selling of player made medium cannons, then just raise the selling price of the medium cannons sold by AI. But please do not get rid of AI selling them. 

You could check market for cannons before buying the ship. Or every ship can have basic guns equipped when 'empty'. I don't think AI should be crafting or selling anything at all.

Edited March 17, 2019 by StuntPotato

[LIONOFWALES]

14 hours ago, Thonys said:

4.medium guns drop if it is rain in the game it is unnatural to be one of the most expensive items and become meaningless items because the price is dropped to zero.

this is not logical and actually.... well...dumb. (we throw a trading and meaningful item in the ..... overboard )

This is the primary problem... I agree with you.

 

14 hours ago, Thonys said:

7.captains and players and outsiders see the opportunity but it is not used

Yeah, many players forget that this game is about economy as much as it is about combat and the wargame. After all the driver of war … is it not usually affiliated with wealth and culture? The economy is very important and will be perfected if we can gain control of it.

 

14 hours ago, Thonys said:

9. make medium guns recyclable....(in some way)  those guns wore out when used.

I like this idea... may be too much to ask for right now though. The developers would need to solve these issues one step at a time. Excellent idea though, excellent indeed. It would take a very long time for the guns to age this way too.

 

14 hours ago, Thonys said:

8. if you capture a ship:  you actually should have the option to take the guns out of it and sink the ship...

Skipped this one... didn't I... aren't you just full of good ideas. Perhaps this mechanic could be added further down the road?

 

14 hours ago, Thonys said:

10. the game needs more gun types, brass and bronze guns, and howitzer sized guns.

with their own characteristics. 

Not sure about this... I feel that the current layout for guns is enough... however... I like lots and lots of content and options sooooo… I am also in favor of this. I am sure there are other players that are hard core crafters that would like to have more gun types in game also. Maybe the brass guns wouldn't last as long as iron guns, and so on.

 

14 hours ago, Thonys said:

11. in the ui of the ship (ship picture) we should see the type of guns we sail on the ship .

I am trying to see the benefit of this... I am in favor of being able to see the guns in the open world though... and would also like to be able to close the gun ports, and open gun ports for the cool asthetics. you know... you start the fight and you see each others gun ports rolling open from stern to stem, or vice versa.

 

14 hours ago, Thonys said:

not so difficult to code use the port icon also  in the  OW UI (and you can see the guns and upgrades on your ship anytime and throw them overboard if you want to do so for making speed if necessary) ([destroy]

This is a fun idea... perhaps it would take time to do so.... and you can see the men throwing them over board in instance.

Thanks for the support and ideas... what can be added into the game is only limited by the developers, how they want their game in the end will be how it turns out... but hey if we can generate ideas that are wholesome and well grounded I am sure they will do what they can if the entire community is in support of something specific.

[LIONOFWALES]

12 hours ago, StuntPotato said:

On 3/15/2019 at 12:34 PM, Anne Wildcat said:

No.  You lose your ship, you may go to a port where you don’t have a ship and then buy a ship off auction.  Then cross fingers someone is selling medium cannons? Please no, do not get rid of ai selling medium cannons at port. If you want more selling of player made medium cannons, then just raise the selling price of the medium cannons sold by AI. But please do not get rid of AI selling them. 

You could check market for cannons before buying the ship. Or every ship can have basic guns equipped when 'empty'. I don't think AI should be crafting or selling anything at all.

see there is so much to this awesome game... why limit the economy with trifles like this. After all... wouldn't you like a shot at cornering the market if you made cannons to sell. Besides the more players that play, the more cut-throat the economy game will get, I am sure the competition will be vicious. All in the name of good fun of course.

Edited March 18, 2019 by LIONOFWALES

[Anne Wildcat]

Full player driven econ with this low pop wouldn’t work.  Just look at free ports now, only a few people have ships for sale and none are those that can’t be captured on OS. And I cannot find carros for my Snow for the life of me  

 

Take away AI sold ships and AI sold cannons and you get over inflation and killing of casuals on a low pop game. 

 

Even POTBS realized this towards the end when the pop was low and had AI selling raw materials. And that was a free to play game where you could have as many alts as you wanted. 

[Thonys]

6 minutes ago, Anne Wildcat said:

Full player driven econ with this low pop wouldn’t work.  Just look at free ports now, only a few people have ships for sale and none are those that can’t be captured on OS. And I cannot find 6th rate carros for the life of me 

 

Take away AI sold ships and AI sold cannons and you get over inflation and killing of casuals on a low pop game. 

 

Even POTCO realized this towards the end when the pop was low and had AI selling raw materials. 

i dont agree 

ever played EVE ?

the problem is , now you have to think what you are going to do, instead of taking goods (push random button) from the shelf and load it in a trader and  push the sell button.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Thonys