Battle system core ruleset discussion

[Licinio Chiavari]

12 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Again, my impression from most of this leaves me with the feeling that developer time should be spent on the disease, not the symptoms here: We need more content.

PvE content. Meaningful politics, economy, EXPLORATION, active fishing mini-games/battles. This.

PvP server spicy up everything. Plain and simple.

Quite a bunch of not so hardcore PvPers (like me) choose a PvP server in any game simply for the thrill.

Pure PvPers often looks after instanced arena games.

NA should not reduce its OW to something like a loading screen of an arena.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Licinio Chiavari

[Licinio Chiavari]

5 minutes ago, z4ys said:

What needs changing is spotting range currently I can tell from trillion miles friend or foe and run away.

...

To judge friend or foe should only be possible within tagging range. That would bypass the need of ultra fast tagging ships.

REALLY GREAT POINT.

6 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Then structure dmg slow down effect is so weak that some ships can still escape with 20-40 structure. Start making it a penalty. Repairs should only repair structure back to the point were it can't sink 15% or so. But never 100% that would make this fake looking circle of death so unnecessary.

Infinite repairs issue. Almost all the same.

7 minutes ago, z4ys said:

And I know it's skill but this I angle my ship and bounce broadside is stupid.

Like mast snapping. It's skill. But definately unreal like so effective bouncing (that leads to bow rakes being 90+% totally un-effective).

[Iroquois Confederacy]

16 minutes ago, admin said:

Commerce raiders?

They are pvp players they will manage.

Commerce raiders are the ones who play for immersion and a feeling of history.  Players beaming in, and time and space no longer mattering will make this feel less like an Age of Sail game and more like an Honor Harrington (sci fi ships with sails) game.  This will drive the commerce raiders away.

[Capn Rocko]

35 minutes ago, admin said:

It can be something else - not a circle. 

Karma system
Point system
Timeouts
There are lots of options that can work if we through away this original mantra "You can attack with no consequences"
And i think we should consider throwing it away. 
Because Attack must result in a score and if you attack to just run around you better not attack at all. 

And this must be implemented even if there is only one reason
Reduce griefing, time wasting and other related negatives related to useless battles.

 

PS. Example of a simple point system
Attack results in an attacking battle for you, points scored in an attacking battle (points mean any points scored in that battle even against you).
If during some time attacking points are below attack results you lose rank. 

I agree that griefing and time wasting should be punished and that holding the attacker in battle is the best solution offered so far.

The only problem I see with the points system is that if your enemy escapes, you get negative points. Or maybe I am looking at this wrong? 

P.S. I am still curious how you plan to implement the join circle feature.. if a large ship joins the weaker side (making the battle unbalanced now for the opposite team) will the other team's join circle open to give them a chance to make the battle even again? 

[z4ys]

Quote

Then structure dmg slow down effect is so weak that some ships can still escape with 20-40 structure. Start making it a penalty. Repairs should only repair structure back to the point were it can't sink 15% or so. But never 100% that would make this fake looking circle of death so unnecessary.

8 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Infinite repairs issue. Almost all the same.

Not really I couldnt care less if he repairs his side. But structure and the weak structure slow down penalty is so stupid.

Its always...

go down to structure -> start sailing away (at almost full speed) -> angle your ship - bounce everything -> repair structure -> sail away slightly faster

Edited January 20, 2019 by z4ys

[Licinio Chiavari]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

Draconian measures to punish the attacker for attacking don't make any sense.

Making attackers... Attacking less and less. Only when 99% SURE about the situation.

Not to forget you see a ship, even the same of yours, but she could be far better geared/modded/gold/armed (poods)... And in case of similar skill it would be a plain suicide keep fighting.

So leading... To LESS PVP.

Edited January 20, 2019 by Licinio Chiavari

[Sir Texas Sir]

58 minutes ago, admin said:

It can be something else - not a circle. 

Karma system
Point system
Timeouts
There are lots of options that can work if we through away this original mantra "You can attack with no consequences"
And i think we should consider throwing it away. 
Because Attack must result in a score and if you attack to just run around you better not attack at all. 

And this must be implemented even if there is only one reason
Reduce griefing, time wasting and other related negatives related to useless battles.

 

PS. Example of a simple point system
Attack results in an attacking battle for you, points scored in an attacking battle (points mean any points scored in that battle even against you).
If during some time attacking points are below attack results you lose rank. 

While many have suggested a reputation system.  That would be something your mentioning here. You keep getting a bad reputation (run from battles all the time) maybe force them to become out laws.  Bring back the FFA for outlaws, have them only use free towns (no Mort that should be a neurtal zone any way for all to use). They can't do RvR and they can't attack any one in green zones (this keeps them from griefing newbies and casuals).   Just OW fights and maybe limit them to only capture ships as they can't buy any thing other than 5th rates and below or something.

Yes alts can be a way around this, but you could block out trade with other nations too for this class.  They have an option to gain reputation back and not be outlaws or they wipe the char and make a new one and start over.  (Forge papers will be a tricky thing maybe not able to use with outlaw class).

Though honestly I think our combat system is fine for now, RvR needs work though.  This is something we can work on changing after release  and finish up other things though.  

As for battles I"m all for any battles out side of green zones be the old two circles.  If your in the small circle you get instant pulled. If your in the big circle you get the option to join at that spot or not, this you can leave if you don't want to join the battle.  What you see is what you get with the battle.  Other wise wait until it's over than a new one can start with who ever is out there at that time.  In green zones leave Nations side open until battle is filled on that side.   None nationals side of that zone locks when battle opens.  That will make it very risky for gankers and newbie/seal clubbers to hunt in green zones.  Make the reinforcement ships one tier higher and buffed so if they attack a solo player they have a chance.  Green zones should not be a hunting grounds.  Give crappy rewards for any mission done in them and make it so you have to go out into the other ares of the map to get any of the good rewards.

[Hullabaloo]

Atm there is a balance to be struck between speed: so you can choose your engagements, you can disengage if things go bad, you can prevent others from disengaging if things go well and 'tank' so you are strong enough to brawl. This is central to theory crafting ship builds and fittings, fleet compositions and tactics.

When you are winning a fight, preventing your opponents from disengaging is a skill and tactical consideration in the battle as is disengaging if things go badly. It's fun! I have had many many really enjoyable 1v1 fights where neither ship sank in the end. Sometimes ships escape and sometimes they don't. A circle of death or a mechanic that prevents disengaging would kill all this. If you need something to prevent griefing then ok, but let players play in the style they want to and sail the ships they want to, please do not turn the whole game into a patrol zone/legends brawl to the death with just tanky ships. It gets boring really quickly. Patrols are already there for players who want this. But in OW you should be able to leave the battle if you are able to get away.

No one has ever explained to me why the control perk is not simply used all the time for every ship? If you are too far from an enemy ship then you or it can simply leave. This would prevent being able keep ships in battle at range by sail tagging and if you are tagged into battle by a player who has little intention of fighting then at least he will be close enough for you to shoot at him, if not, then you can simply leave. This seems such a simple and obvious solution I wonder if I am missing something?

Edited January 20, 2019 by Hullabaloo 'The Thief'

[Sir Texas Sir]

19 minutes ago, z4ys said:

Not really I couldnt care less if he repairs his side. But structure and the weak structure slow down penalty is so stupid.

Its always...

go down to structure -> start sailing away (at almost full speed) -> angle your ship - bounce everything -> repair structure -> sail away slightly faster

I suggested a fix for this 100 times......REPAIRS CAN NOT BE DONE WHILE AT FULL SAILS.  You must go to battle sails to reapair your ship.  This will stop the hit and run thing folks do. 

Can't remember who suggested it a few days ago but it could be a tier thing.  If your at Battle sails you get 50% repairs.  Full sails you get 10-25% repair.  Your slow/full stop you get 100% of your repair.  This will stop the running and put you at advantage than some one going full balls to the walls and repairing 100% of the damage they took.

Most stupid stuff I seen is a Herc take a full broad side that goes into structure and it sails away, repairs while the others play tag game.  Had 5 vs 2 one day and the only reason we killed a Herc was cause I demasted one and put is dead in the water. They would just pull back after a broad side and repair.  That or make it so that that much diffrent in Broad side hits puts your into a special shock that doesn't go away as fast.  So your pretty much dead in the water or turning like a lame duck.   A broad side that strips almost all a ships armor and goes into structure should pretty much sink a ship.

 

And drop the super laser accurate stern guns....I mean they where ment to give trade ships an avantage and suddenly every ship had them......I think no ships should have them since game mechanics has been changed so much since that was done.

[Hawkwood]

In my opinion, there is a vast misproportion between gain/loss in PVP.

Higher insurance sums needed for lost ships.

Speed mods need to go away, because magic speed mods make no sense to me in a "need more PVP, should not runaway" sphere/mindset.

Balance the wood characteristics. Less teak thickness and speed bonuses,(prices too high for teak), more mahogany,sabicu bonuses.(easier available)

Cheaper, better woods might lead to cheaper, but more equal ships. Higher(trippled) sums for insurance also might encourage more players to shoot eachother, and once again, in a game which wants "more PVP" in almost every 10th post, speed upgrades need to go away, because they are a runaway insurance, if things go wrong.

As long as  these things aren´t in balance, there will be no "more PVP". Otherwise i am all for slaughter in open sea.

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 hour ago, Hawkwood said:

In my opinion, there is a vast misproportion between gain/loss in PVP.

Higher insurance sums needed for lost ships.

Speed mods need to go away, because magic speed mods make no sense to me in a "need more PVP, should not runaway" sphere/mindset.

Balance the wood characteristics. Less teak thickness and speed bonuses,(prices too high for teak), more mahogany,sabicu bonuses.(easier available)

Cheaper, better woods might lead to cheaper, but more equal ships. Higher(trippled) sums for insurance also might encourage more players to shoot eachother, and once again, in a game which wants "more PVP" in almost every 10th post, speed upgrades need to go away, because they are a runaway insurance, if things go wrong.

As long as  these things aren´t in balance, there will be no "more PVP". Otherwise i am all for slaughter in open sea.

 Something I thought of before about mods and thought we would get.  You get 3-5 per slots right.  Allow only one speed mod, reload mod and turn mods  mod in the first three slots or others.  Do the same with skills, but add rare books to the three.   Than you have two other slots on ships that aren't normal 3/5's or fully unlocked 5 slots that can be used for others.   This means you can't stack three speed perm mods, three perm reload mods, three perm turn rate mods.   This will cut it down to two mods of one special type and the rare book if some one gets them so you pretty much limit on what you can stack on the ship.  Others can take up a slot as for other mods that have multi skills adjust on them. 

Edited January 20, 2019 by Sir Texas Sir

[AeRoTR]

I think that veteran players commenting here, even though their suggestion do not favour themselves, made very very good, realistic suggestions.

@admin please condiser this last page, especially. Most of the stuff here, like crazy stacking mods (naval clock + copper +...) , single shot mast sniping !, repairing full structure, repearing on the full speed / full effectiveness, increase of insurance amounts, wood difference adjustments, control perk instead of single shot tagging and many others, are very important.

 

[Licinio Chiavari]

20 minutes ago, Hullabaloo 'The Thief' said:

No one has ever explained to me why the control perk is simply not used all the time for every ship? If you are too far from an enemy ship then you or it can simply leave.

Very simple idea.

Control perk for all. No tagging to keep people in battle.

BUT... The higher the rate (or the BR) difference the closer you have to stay?

So a Prince will have to stay very close to a Bellona (200? Less?) to keep her in battle. That's exactly (TBH even closer) he wants to stay if wishing a battle. But infinite tag griefing will immediately ends.

 

Edited January 20, 2019 by Licinio Chiavari

[Licinio Chiavari]

16 minutes ago, Sir Texas Sir said:

Can't remember who suggested it a few days ago but it could be a tier thing.  If your at Battle sails you get 50% repairs.  Full sails you get 10-25% repair.  Your slow/full stop you get 100% of your repair.  This will stop the running and put you at advantage than some one going full balls to the walls and repairing 100% of the damage they took.

Me. 😎

[admin]

7 minutes ago, AeRoTR said:

I think that veteran players commenting here, even though their suggestion do not favour themselves, made very very good, realistic suggestions.

@admin please condiser this last page, especially. Most of the stuff here, like crazy stacking mods (naval clock + copper +...) , single shot mast sniping !, repairing full structure, repearing on the full speed / full effectiveness, increase of insurance amounts, wood difference adjustments, control perk instead of single shot tagging and many others, are very important.

 

How is it relevant to increasing kills per hour for new player (30 real days in game or less)? How is it going to reduce fake battles? How is it going to reduce ganking?
Here is the simple guide for the veteran players commenting here.
In the suggestion you propose is explain how it is going to address those 3 issues (we are interested in). If your suggestion does not address those issues - do not post it.

[Licinio Chiavari]

3 minutes ago, admin said:

How is it relevant to increasing kills per hour for new player (30 real days in game or less)? How is it going to reduce fake battles? How is it going to reduce ganking?
Here is the simple guide
In the suggestion you propose is explain how it is going to address those 3 issues (we are interested in). If your suggestion does not address those issues - do not post it.

May be it's relevant because a 5/5 t/t v.fast Constitution with Clock+Copper+NHR+AoSH+Loodsman would outrun any casuals' fleet and catch and sink any casual's frigate?

Edited January 20, 2019 by Licinio Chiavari

[admin]

7 minutes ago, rediii said:

@admin if the problem is fakebattles why not rework the taggingmechanics instead of changing RoE completly?

Evening out BR will favor the skilled players a lot atm but yea it might be better

Tagging remains - its a circle and a pull - not planning to change it.

[staun]

2 hours ago, admin said:

You said easy demasting was granted based on player suggestions (despite the fact that it was constantly nerfed and nerfed and nerfed over time). Some mods make it impossible now. That is why your comment on demasting did not make ANY sense to me and i asked to rephrase it twice.

I am one of those guys to that hate demasting. If you first lost a mast, game over. So I actually tried to see if it is possible with rather common upgrades to make demasting impossible. I tried it on my herc. I put a: 

- French Rig Refit 15 %

- Pino Ocote Mast 5 %

- Navy Mast treatment 10 %

It gave my mast a thickness of 103 cm. A herc 32 carronade may penetrate 103 at 100 meter. So you are right. It would be almost impossible to demast my herc for other ships in the shallow, I guess it will show the same for other ships to, though i havent testet it. It is rather commen upgraders I think. 

 

[z4ys]

7 minutes ago, admin said:

fake battles

what is a fake battle for you?

• A battle when the defender tries to run away?
• A battle when the attacker just starts the battle so his friends can assamble and retag can happen
• A battle when attacker noticed that he is not strong enough and disengages? Leaving defender with a tactical victory?
• or something else

[admin]

1 minute ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

May be it's relevant because a 5/5 t/t v.fast Constitution with Clock+Copper+NHR+AoSH+Loodsman would outrun any casuals' fleet and catch and sink any casual's frigate?

Upgrades have no influence to rules of engagement. And fast ships will be always in game (some ships will be faster or slower). And will always disengage at will even if they attacked.

Thus they are irrelevant in the ROE Discussion because a Simple ROE change will remove the desire to fit for speed for an attacker.

[Licinio Chiavari]

5 minutes ago, admin said:

Upgrades have no influence to rules of engagement. And fast ships will be always in game (some ships will be faster or slower). And will always disengage at will even if they attacked.

Thus they are irrelevant in the ROE Discussion because a Simple ROE change will remove the desire to fit for speed for an attacker.

Are you kidding?

Let me know how is espected to fit a reasoning lone raider.

For thickness and HP? So unable to tag fleeing enemies (being too slow) nor out run gank/revenge fleets (being too slow - again)?

Every game feature is relevant as soon as you're touching the most relevant feature of a PvP server: the ROE.

Or do you think that fast and light raiders are a fact like LO/WO+Kiritimati Surprises in PZ too by chance?

Edited January 20, 2019 by Licinio Chiavari

[admin]

4 minutes ago, z4ys said:

what is a fake battle for you?

• A battle when the defender tries to run away?
• A battle when the attacker just starts the battle so his friends can assamble and retag can happen
• A battle when attacker noticed that he is not strong enough and disengages? Leaving defender with a tactical victory?
• or something else

.
We said it before and it was the source of the comment (that was then moved to a separate topic by mods).There are a lot of battles where people tag a target with no intention to fight. Or with the intention to run as soon as they did a couple of shots. The only way to bring honor to the attack is to bring it by design - which means - attacker must always bear consequences of the attack. He must actively engage the enemy or get punished for passivity (like admiral Byng)

ps - i understand that some people have friends in enemy nations - Ally and dont attack those nations then. Or move together. 

[z4ys]

4 minutes ago, admin said:

 He must actively engage the enemy or get punished for passivity (like admiral Byng)

Does that apply to the defender as well. Statistic might be blind to it because most people who are attacked just run and never fight. But in the end sink.

If not it clearly favors the defending side. So equal grps will never attack each other becuase they want to get attacked while it will give them more options.

Edited January 20, 2019 by z4ys

[staun]

On 1/18/2019 at 11:48 AM, admin said:

 

• Battle is always open for the weaker side 
  • This is a war server - this is a pvp game with the goal to increase amount of pvp for all. There is no point to close the battle for the weaker side. Let them escalate. This becomes the goal. 
  • Then you can come to help your own, and know someone will come to help.
  • Then you can build more friendships and get assists 
  • Then you will stumble to more battles and will have more pvp kills per hour. 

 

 

I might have missed where you explained it. Lets say I go out to hunt with another player. We both are in trinc, see another trinc. I tag and get in to battle, my body is just outside the circle when the fight begins, will he be able to join?

If we base it on Br for players to join the weaker side, will it not give some issues with traders taking up br? They dont bring the same fight as a warship. How high a different do you think about for the lower side to join with? x 1,5, 2,0 5,0.

[admin]

24 minutes ago, Licinio Chiavari said:

Are you kidding?

Let me know how is espected to fit a reasoning lone raider.

For thickness and HP? So unable to tag fleeing enemies (being too slow) nor out run gank/revenge fleets (being too slow - again)?

Every game feature is relevant as soon as you're touching the most relevant feature of a PvP server: the ROE.

Or do you think that fast and light raiders are a fact like LO/WO+Kiritimati Surprises in PZ too by chance?

You seem to be ignoring my points based on our jumping straight to repeating your previous post.

Upgrades are irrelevant because there always going to be a fastest ship with fastest upgrades. If we nerf them - some ships will still be faster and will be used for solo hunting.
For example - imagine the game where only 2 ships . Lynx and Victory. Will upgrades matter for ROE discussion (stopping lynx from attacking victory and running)?

Same in your case. If you sail solo you will fit for speed to be faster than your target and your potential gankers. If roe allows one side to run - solo players will sail a faster ship. So we can ignore upgrades because nothing will change and we should just focus on ROE