Ship request - 2nd rate

[Alex Connor]

Hello Captains.. 

 

We want to bring a generic 2nd rate into the game. 

Please suggest a model. Include references, paintings and links to tech drawings if they exist.

 

This is urgent - we want to start building it asap.

 

• Time period 1700-1800
• Guns 80-98
• Countries preferred: Sweden, France, Russia, Spain, Turkey, maybe Denmark, Britain is also ok but want to make some other nation
• We want it to be a generic ship - so would prefer vessels with less esquisite decorations

 

If you have already suggested a similar model in other topic repost here. 

 

To find a 2nd rate built between 1700-1800 that is not British, this is a challenge...

 

Almost every other nation in this period started to make only very big 3 deckers with 100 guns or more, the 90-98 gun 3 decker is a uniquely British type (and also the small 80 gun 3 deck 3rd rate). There are very few exceptions to this rule, perhaps only 2-3 ships built between 1700 and 1800.

 

I have found one suitable ship, the french "Ville de Paris", built with 90 guns in 1764 (rearmed to 104 guns in 1780) A very beautiful ship, but unfortunately I can find no plans.

 

 

If plans cannot be found for this ship, I would suggest building a British 2nd rate.

 

HMS Barfleur

 

Built in 1768, took part in many famous battles including the Glorious First of June and the Battle of Cape St.Vincent, lead ship of a class of four (first picture is one of her sisterships, shows stern decorations).

 

HMS Temeraire

 

"The Fighting Temeraire", famous for saving Victory from boarding at Trafalgar and then capturing not only Victory's assailant Redoubtable but also the Fougueux, fighting with one lashed to each side. Part of the 3 ship Neptune class, her sisterships Neptune and Dreadnought also took part in Trafalgar, Neptune being one of the ships that fought and captured the Santisima Trinidad.

 

Of these two, my preference would be the Barfleur, as the Temeraire will look very similar to HMS Victory and is only slightly smaller.

[Comandante Gómez]

I think now we need a french ship of the line. Spain has now the Escorial of the Seas, so there is no need for more spanish ships by the moment. I feel that the french fleet needs a complete and unique ship, as the Bucentaure or the Redoutable, or another one, but french at all case.

[Destraex]

Second Rate according to the British is 3 gun decks and 90-98guns

 

Russian

Lesnoe - 90 guns - launched 1718

Gangut - 90/92 guns - launched 1719

Fridrikhshtadt - 90/96 guns - launched 1720

 

Swedish 

Drottning Ulrika Eleonora - 86 guns - claimed to be a second rate

http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=10857

 

 

http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=ships_search

[BungeeLemming]

...and now show us YOUR favourite..

Its like posting google search results O_o

[Destraex]

The reason I posted this list was because people seemed to be saying nobody but the British had second rate ships.

Now we have a list and a good source I can research my favourite and so can others

[Destraex]

please delete this then and just check the list here for those that want to know about second rates from other nations:

http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=ships_search

[akd]

Second Rate according to the British is 3 gun decks and 90-98guns

Russian

Lesnoe - 90 guns - launched 1718

Gangut - 90/92 guns - launched 1719

Fridrikhshtadt - 90/96 guns - launched 1720

Swedish

Drottning Ulrika Eleonora - 86 guns - claimed to be a second rate

http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=10857

http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=ships_search

These older ships carried 24-pounders on their lower decks. If the devs are looking for something to fit in between the Bellona and Victory, the ship will probably need to be of later origin. This is why just looking at number of guns or rate is not particularly useful. Size of ship and broadside weight are better points of comparison.

[sterner]

We are selecting between St Pavel (80 guns) - Russia and Bucentaure ( 80 guns) - France. We have enough plans and references for St Pavel, but there is almost nothing for Bucentaure. If you have any plans for Bucentaure, could you please share them with us.

[D. Federico de Gravina y N]

Bucentaure for the french seamnes!!!

[Comandante Gómez]

Bucentaure for the french seamnes!!!

 

Napoleon approves this comment

[Comandante Gómez]

[akd]

We are selecting between St Pavel (80 guns) - Russia

Is this the same Pavel?

http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=21416

Listed there as 90 guns. Very interesting that Russian ships-of-the-line carried a small number of howitzers (edinorog) on lower (1-pood / 48-lb) and upper (1/2-pood / 24-lb) gun decks..

[sterner]

Is this the same Pavel?

http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=21416

Listed there as 90 guns. Very interesting that Russian ships-of-the-line carried a small number of howitzers (edinorog) on lower (1-pood / 48-lb) and upper (1/2-pood / 24-lb) gun decks..

Yes, exactly, this is the Pavel.

[Destraex]

We are selecting between St Pavel (80 guns) - Russia and Bucentaure ( 80 guns) - France. We have enough plans and references for St Pavel, but there is almost nothing for Bucentaure. If you have any plans for Bucentaure, could you please share them with us.

My vote would be Bucentaure ( 80 guns)  to begin with.

It I assume would look more generic than the St Pavel? But then again a second rate was never really generic... a rare thing actually.

[sterner]

We need plans and references to make a ship. If ship doesn't have plans or their quality is not good, then we select a ship with detailed plans and references. 

We are asking community for Bucentaure's plans to make final choise. The main issue with Bucentaure - missing plans. If plans are not found, then St Pavel will be started.

[Bart Smith]

Lot of Danish ships here:

http://www.navalhistory.dk/english/naval_lists/types/shipsoftheline.htm

[Mirones]

We need plans and references to make a ship. If ship doesn't have plans or their quality is not good, then we select a ship with detailed plans and references. 

We are asking community for Bucentaure's plans to make final choise. The main issue with Bucentaure - missing plans. If plans are not found, then St Pavel will be started.

 

http://godfreydykes.info/HMS_GANGES_BUILDING_PLANS_AND_PICTURES_OF_HER.htm http://godfreydykes.info/HOME_PAGE.html

 

there are plans of Le Franklin/HMS Ganges/ Duc de Burgundy 80gun  the original ship is an Frensh type that but you to get in contact with the host of that webpage because of copy right.

if you still want an French SoL and her stern isnt full decoration so usefull for an generic shipclass.(dont look at the stern of HMS Gangens of course)

cant remember how often i have sugested her befor.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_ship_Duc_de_Bourgogne_%281752%29

[Bart Smith]

Here:

http://www.shipmodels.com.ua/eng/models/elite/fenixs//index.htm

not sure that is 2 rate :

http://www.shipmodels.com.ua/eng/models/elite/le_rivoli/index.htm

a bit out of timeframe but...how beauty:

http://www.shipmodels.com.ua/eng/models/elite/le_ambiteux/index.htm

a bit before timeframe Dutch 80 guns 2 rate:

http://www.modelnet.pl/all_products/10/p/1130

[Leviathan]

I've tried to find something on the Bucentaure but the only thing I have found is people saying it's a ghost ship with no plans and only a few paintings. Perhaps someone else will have better luck or you'll have to pick an alternative.

[Ligatorswe]

There are plenty of UNIQUE and GOOD swedish ships from the period around the napoleonic war. But the largest swedish ships in the navy in the end of 1700s and early 1800s were ships with around 60-70 cannons. Ths swedish flagship in the battle of Hogland against the russians, 1790 had around 70 cannons, (HMS Konung Gustaf III)I That was a deliberate swedish policy and the work of the genius Chapman. Fast ships with the focus on mobility.

 

The 94 cannon-ship that was mentioned earlier in thie thread was never realized.
 

So you could pick a swedish frigate or 4, 3 rate ship, but NOT a 2:nd. If you dont move back to around 1700.

There are however some interesting danish, russian and ottoman once you could pick.

[Alex Connor]

We are selecting between St Pavel (80 guns) - Russia and Bucentaure ( 80 guns) - France. We have enough plans and references for St Pavel, but there is almost nothing for Bucentaure. If you have any plans for Bucentaure, could you please share them with us.

I have plans for the Guillaume Tell, half-sistership to Bucentaure.

 

 

Jacques-Noel Sane designed the Tonnant class of which 10 ships where built, and then made small modifications to this design to built the Bucentaure class. Guillaume Tell is therefore almost identical in appearance to the Buccentaure.

[akd]

Guillaume Tell would be a great choice for a 80-gun third rate. You could of course go with the name of any of her sisters as well.

[Mahlitz]

A Beautiful Danish Ship Called Christian VII

 

 

Christian VII (1767-1801)

 

 

 

Norwegian Wiki page about the ship http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C2%ABChristian_den_Syvende%C2%BB_(1767)

 

http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=654

 

 

 

Ship name : Christian den Syvende/Christian VII

 

Launch year : 1767

 

Out of year : 1801

 

Guns : 90

 

Gun Sizes : 28-36,28-18,26-12,8-6

 

Fate : Renamed Prøvesten(1799) 58 Guns  = as a blockship 1799. 28-36, 28-24, and 525 men. 40 men died, and 35 wounded in battle 1801. The ship was burnt.

 

Length (ft.) : 182

 

Beam (ft.) : 49

 

Draugth fore/aft (ft.) : 19-9/21

 

Laest (c.2 t.) : 1604 

 

Crew : 849

 

 

Ship plans/painting in Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Christian VII (1803-1807)

 

http://threedecks.org/index.php?display_type=show_ship&id=650

 

  

 

Ship name : Christian VII

 

Launch year : 1803

 

Out of year : 1807

 

Guns : 90

 

Fate : Taken by RN at the fall of Copenhagen 1807.

 

Gun Sizes : (keel :154-7,875, 2128 bm.)e 28-36 in main deck.

 

Length (ft.) : 184-6 187-2e

 

Beam (ft.) : 48-6 50-10,5e

 

Draugth fore/aft (ft.) : 19-9/20-9 20-10(dh.)e

 

Laest (c.2 t.) : 1452,5

 

Crew : 849

 

 

-- Source http://koti.mbnet.fi/felipe/html/sol_1700-1850.html

 

 

 

 

 

[KillBox]

If I'm to vote, I'd say go with the St Pavel (in her 90-gun setup).  Plans are more readily available, and at 90 guns, she's a little more snugly in between the 74 and the 104-gun Victory, whereas the 80-gunner would be very close to the 74.

 

I'm all for French ships, but alas, those hardworking serfs at Brest did their best work on the myriad of Frigates (and Corvettes), 3rd Rates and 1st Rates.

[Mayersand]

I'm voting for class Tonnant ships! It is a must have for this game.

 

The Guillaume Tell and the Bucentaure are both "classe tonnant" ships, a generic class of 80 guns ship of the line, coming from the work of Jean Noël Sané and Chevalier de Borda. 35 ships were built with the same plans. Here is a complete list at the end of this article:

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classe_Tonnant

 

The "class tonnant" could be the best choice if you want to built a generic 80 guns ship given the fact that ships of that class were captured and used by England several times. Almost like the previous class by Jean noël sané, the "class téméraire" (the most famous class of 74, with a least 100 ship built from 1780 to 1820) which was captured, used and then copied by the British.

 

Use the plan Given by Alex

I have plans for the Guillaume Tell, half-sistership to Bucentaure.

 

GuillaumeTell.jpgDeck.jpg

 

Jacques-Noel Sane designed the Tonnant class of which 10 ships where built, and then made small modifications to this design to built the Bucentaure class. Guillaume Tell is therefore almost identical in appearance to the Buccentaure.

By the way, where did you find those plans? because I tried to look in the archives of The National Maritime Museum, and I didn't find anything interesting... It's realy a pain to find Jean Noël Sané plans...

 

http://www.stephens-kenau.com/bucentaure-product-view-38.html

 

Le Guillaume Tell being captured

L'indomptable during Trafalgar