An Argument For Dismasting

[TommyShelby]

Ye as far as i recall it was because huge inaccuracy (RNG) did not prove fun for the majority of players. 

And huge inaccuracy, in my point of view, only encourages 1 type of play; Brawling. 

Nonetheless, lets say we nerf Cannons and give them the current dispersion of Carronades. It will still take only 1 broadside to take down Top Masts at 300 Meters. Mid Mast's will be 1-2 Broadside at 200-250 Meters or so. Main Mast will be 2-3 broadsides at 100-150 Meters. 
 
Even if you eliminate "mast sniping" you will still see the Masts fall in about the same amount of time.
Why you may ask? 
Well, let me explain it to you; Demasting right now is all about being able to Penetrate the Mast. If you can penetrate the Mast it will not take more than a few broadsides to take down several masts. (Depends on your aim ofcourse, but if you know what your doing :p) 

So you will still be here complaining about demasting because "OP". And i will still be here complaining about demasting not being properly balanced. 
 

[CaptVonGunn]

13 hours ago, TommyShelby said:

I'm not a big fan of the current mod system either. 

But if i can snipe masts at 200 meters with Carronades and hit 3/4 shots then it is quite obvious that nerfing accuracy in itself will not fix the issue. It will be a step in the right direction, but many more things will need change before we achieve the balance everyone is looking for. 

Yes but if the system had a built in say 35% inaccuracy rate to simulate ship movement that might drop to 1/3  or even 1/4 since if done properly it would be random inaccuracy in all directions and anywhere from a foot off to 2-3 ft off at 100 yards..  SO no matter how good you are shooting at a ship side.. single shoting  a MAst would then be a LOT harder... 

[CaptVonGunn]

6 hours ago, Hethwill said:

At 800m, artillery batteries ( 6pdr - 12 pdr ) were expected to hit a frontage of 70m consistently. Pretty much artillery focusing infantry in line.

It is the age of mass fire into one spot. So, for you mathematicians, how much deviation from 0m to 70m at 800m in degrees, horizontal? 

Let's translate that to sea. 70m square area at 800m. What is the angle maximum deviation for X and Y at 50m intervals ?

Yes those are stats on Fixed positions not guns moving side ways and rolling u and down and to and fro . 

[CaptVonGunn]

13 hours ago, HachiRoku said:

accuracy mods are not as effective as people make them out to be. I use pellews but its for chaining more than for balls. 

when people stack them which some do they help a lot...  but the fact that we do not have to contend with all 3 axis of movement a ships gunner did makes it easier .. as we really only have 2 axis to deal with and neither of them is ever as sudden or large as a real on... sure you mistime the roll but you go to Battle sail or just hit depower (or both) your stable as a gun on dry land except for forward movement. Also there is basically Zero up down movement of the ship going through and over waves and into the troughs between them..  That is all... and only reasonable way to add that is a random inaccuracy factor as teh code for tracking that movement I am sure is and would me a nightmare.

[Hethwill]

22 minutes ago, CaptVonGunn said:

Yes those are stats on Fixed positions not guns moving side ways and rolling u and down and to and fro . 

Yep exactly what I explained. Although they move sideways they do not have the waving ground to contend with  

[Malachy]

5 hours ago, TommyShelby said:

Ye as far as i recall it was because huge inaccuracy (RNG) did not prove fun for the majority of players. 

And huge inaccuracy, in my point of view, only encourages 1 type of play; Brawling. 

Nonetheless, lets say we nerf Cannons and give them the current dispersion of Carronades. It will still take only 1 broadside to take down Top Masts at 300 Meters. Mid Mast's will be 1-2 Broadside at 200-250 Meters or so. Main Mast will be 2-3 broadsides at 100-150 Meters. 
 
Even if you eliminate "mast sniping" you will still see the Masts fall in about the same amount of time.
Why you may ask? 
Well, let me explain it to you; Demasting right now is all about being able to Penetrate the Mast. If you can penetrate the Mast it will not take more than a few broadsides to take down several masts. (Depends on your aim ofcourse, but if you know what your doing :p) 

So you will still be here complaining about demasting because "OP". And i will still be here complaining about demasting not being properly balanced. 
 

I never said that cannon accuracy would fix it all (if I did it's not what I meant. Lol) I believe that eliminating pinpoint accuracy, combined with an overhaul on mast thickness and hitpoints. I have an idea for a detailed overhaul but I'll post that in a separate thread.

[Quineloe]

On 29/11/2017 at 8:14 PM, HachiRoku said:

accuracy isnt an issue. Try hitting masts with carros. You can get 50% hitrate close range no problem

If you think it's no issue at all, how can one thing actually be the issue?

 

23 hours ago, Malachy said:

You get hit with fire shock and you can end up dead real quick. He went from half armor to zero health and structure in a very short time. I knew fire was more damaging now if uncontrolled but that was plain nuts lol. He had planned to use the fire shock to get them to back off a bit while he repaired. It backfired lol.

That has *never* worked.

[TommyShelby]

14 hours ago, Malachy said:

I never said that cannon accuracy would fix it all (if I did it's not what I meant. Lol) I believe that eliminating pinpoint accuracy, combined with an overhaul on mast thickness and hitpoints. I have an idea for a detailed overhaul but I'll post that in a separate thread.

I don't know how we have kept arguing then because i have, in several comments, mentioned that Accuracy on its own would not fix the issue. That the solution would include things like Mast Thickness and Hitpoints. 

Nonetheless i'm glad you suddenly agree to what i've been saying all along

That said, while i can deal with inaccurate cannons (I've used Carronades enough to overcome the inaccuracy of the guns), i doubt the majority of the playerbase can. 

I'd propose that the Devs simply reactivate the old feature where "Waves" mattered alot more. (Right now, when you click "Fire" all cannons will fire at the point you were aiming at when clicking. However this feature made it so that your cannons were "Fixed" to the ship, so if you clicked "Fire" and your ship is rolling, then your broadside will follow the ships roll.) 

The feature was taken out for a reason, but if we want guns to be less accurate do it this way, rather than implementing the ridicoulus "RNG". "RNG" removes skill where as this old feature actually promotes skill by making it so that you have to be aware of the waves etc. 

So a good captain who has "become one with the waves" will be able to keep a much higher hit-ratio than someone who cannot read the waves so to speak. 

(Thinking of the average player, i think nerfing accuracy is the wrong way to go. There is a reason why we've ended up with accuracy we have today.) 

[IndianaGeoff]

Tommy I can agree to this, but if they have waves reduce accuracy... they simply have to nerf repairs or battles would never end.

[Malachy]

2 hours ago, TommyShelby said:

I don't know how we have kept arguing then because i have, in several comments, mentioned that Accuracy on its own would not fix the issue. That the solution would include things like Mast Thickness and Hitpoints. 

Nonetheless i'm glad you suddenly agree to what i've been saying all along

That said, while i can deal with inaccurate cannons (I've used Carronades enough to overcome the inaccuracy of the guns), i doubt the majority of the playerbase can. 

I'd propose that the Devs simply reactivate the old feature where "Waves" mattered alot more. (Right now, when you click "Fire" all cannons will fire at the point you were aiming at when clicking. However this feature made it so that your cannons were "Fixed" to the ship, so if you clicked "Fire" and your ship is rolling, then your broadside will follow the ships roll.) 

The feature was taken out for a reason, but if we want guns to be less accurate do it this way, rather than implementing the ridicoulus "RNG". "RNG" removes skill where as this old feature actually promotes skill by making it so that you have to be aware of the waves etc. 

So a good captain who has "become one with the waves" will be able to keep a much higher hit-ratio than someone who cannot read the waves so to speak. 

(Thinking of the average player, i think nerfing accuracy is the wrong way to go. There is a reason why we've ended up with accuracy we have today.) 

 Carronades are not inaccurate though within their range limitation, they are just as accurate as long cannons are at longer ranges. The only difference between carronades and regular cannon is that they have a sharper ballistic drop off at longer ranges. When fired as a broadside they have greater dispersion, but fired one at a time they are just as accurate as any other cannon. 

Good captains will always be the best at anything, skill is always going to win out. Right now though, it takes zero skill to demast or aim your cannons. I think, if anything caused me to quit the game right now it would be the hyper accuracy of our cannons. Having fired smooth bore cannons in real life and going to be the proud owner of a 6 lb cannon come Christmas (yep that's my Christmas present), the lack of realism really gets to me. Ships of this era did not have rifled guns and that's what we have in game. If I wanted rifled guns, I'd be playing world of warships. 

Somehow, they need to reduce the hyper accuracy of cannons, I honestly don't care how they do it. Until they fix that, though, demasting will continue to be an I win button in pvp no matter how much you buff masts.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Malachy

[Malachy]

5 hours ago, Quineloe said:

If you think it's no issue at all, how can one thing actually be the issue?

 

That has *never* worked.

Actually, it used to work well. I actually escaped a battle once a while back before fires were more damaging, by hovering in fire shock. When he moved off to keep from being damaged if I blew, I came out of shock and exited the battle. You can't do that anymore lol.

[Quineloe]

he didn't shoot you for two minutes? That is comically inept.

[Malachy]

2 hours ago, Quineloe said:

he didn't shoot you for two minutes? That is comically inept.

He gave me enough distance to repair my sails and get clear. Wasn't the only time it worked either. People are really afraid of explosions lol.

[William Death]

On 12/1/2017 at 5:51 AM, Archaos said:

Regarding realism, I raised that because there was some talk in either this thread or others on the dismasting topic that in reality dismasting was a thing, and I just wanted to point out that although dismasting did happen regularly it was not because it was a tactic but rather because of the sheer weight of broadsides.

This is somewhat incorrect. Demasting was a tactic. Read the reports from historical naval battles, especially Constitution vs. Java. Cannons on ships were plenty accurate enough to have the captains tell the gunners to "fire for their masts" to attempt disable a ship that is trying to stern rake or out-maneuver them. Granted, shot cutting the shrouds had a significant impact on the ability of masts to stay upright, something we don't have in game.

That being said, balancing the game because of historical realism is not the way to do things. We don't have historically realistic tacking times, times to raise sails, weigh anchor, waiting on tides to leave port, etc. 

 

Unrelated to the above quote:

To fix the demasting "problem" that people seem to think exists, I suggest:

• Nerf mast thickness a little bit
• Buff mast HP
• Reduce mast thickness modifiers and give them HP buffs instead of or along with very small thickness buffs
• Reduce cannon penetration modifiers (you'll also have to reduce hull thickness modifiers because of this, but that is another point) 
• Remove lower mast repairs, keep topmast and topgallantmast repairs as they are (tied to sail repairs). I don't like it, it is completely unrealistic to grow a mast back in battle, but see the above point about realism vs. gameplay. 

This will yield masts that are able to be damaged by cannons one or maybe two sizes smaller than what the ship carries, but the masts will be significantly tougher and take longer to fall (because of more HP). Upper masts will still go down relatively easy, but they can be repaired once in the battle. Demasting will be a viable tactic, and a powerful one, but since it will take much longer to make a lower mast fall, you'll have plenty of time to try to get in some hull shots, rakes, or demasting shots of your own before your masts fall. If your opponent has been shooting your lower masts for 5-8 broadsides before they fall and you still haven't managed to sink him, disable him, or at least do considerable damage by then, that is a reflection of your opponent's skill at avoiding being shot, or lack or your skill at landing effective shots.

[Quineloe]

1 hour ago, Willis PVP2 said:

Reduce mast thickness modifiers and give them HP buffs instead of or along with very small thickness buffs

It is already trivial to run into the cap for extra hitpoints, and those do very little. I doubt the extra hp will allow the top mast to take an extra hit even when capped in many situations.

[William Death]

58 minutes ago, Quineloe said:

It is already trivial to run into the cap for extra hitpoints, and those do very little. I doubt the extra hp will allow the top mast to take an extra hit even when capped in many situations.

Very true, but since the overall mast HP will be increased (see my point about that), its already going to take quite a few more hits to take the lower sections, and at least 3 or so more hits for the upper sections (which you can repair). So having some mast buffs for HP could be useful if you don't want to be demasted. Also, I'm all for nerfing all mods, in my opinion, there should be fewer of each type of mod and each mod should be less potent than they are now.

[Hethwill]

Should we have mast damage induced by violent and extreme manoeuvers ? That's how both sides of the realistic coin comes into play.  

[Batman]

4 minutes ago, Hethwill said:

Should we have mast damage induced by violent and extreme manoeuvers ?

No more drifting lineships then?

Edited December 3, 2017 by Batman

[Hethwill]

4 minutes ago, Batman said:

No more drifting lineships then?

No more sharp turns on the frigates without losing gallants, maybe ? Or variable winds and strong gales and light winds, so to promote different OW and battle experience everytime ? I doubt the majority would love it...

I would enjoy leeway to be implemented.

Point was, claim realism credibility but only part of it... *sigh*

[Quineloe]

Is that even something that happened...

[Hethwill]

Yes. Quite often. Some 1st broadsides even hapened only after both ships having their top rigs damaged by wind dueling, but hey  it is a game, and a game it shall remain.

[Rhodry Heidenrich]

2 hours ago, Quineloe said:

Is that even something that happened...

Yep.

NA is by no means a sailing simulator. If it was, the population of players would be lower than it is now. There's so much that goes into getting the most performance out of a sailing vessel (while still respecting the wind enough to not damage the boat and its rigging) that it would be too tedious for a lot of players, I think. 

I can still remember the "lecture" I got from my father the first time I "gybbed" our 27 Foot Catalina in strong winds. Was lucky I didn't break the boom right off of the mast. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cmdr RideZ]

Tommy, I know that you want to find a good and balanced combat mechanism for NA.  I still think that you have been pushing mast meta too hard.

You have been playing so long that you should know what I meant.

[RedNeckMilkMan]

On 11/29/2017 at 11:57 AM, Delete This said:

It was always the meta, but before only the best could use it. Now we got the mid and top section demasting, we got also more penetration/accuracy mods which we didn't have before and mast thickness mods too. 

Demasting is stupid mostly because of wasa with 32s, able to demast all SOLs without big issue.

Wasa got a nerf and is no longer the king of the open world. In pb's it is still broken. Needs an increase to BR.