Server Health is a Game Design Issue

[Tenet]

The main problems with this game and the reason the population is plummeting:

1. Developers decided to make the game into a Job. 

2. Developers implemented slippery slope mechanics that make coming back from losses increasingly harder

This is the claim in most of the bad steam reviews. Not "I was bored" but actually "It feels like a job before you can have any fun."

Legends was NOT the solution. Making the sandbox a actual GAME instead of an alternative-Life is the solution! 

In 2016 they claimed that you can spend 1 hour grinding to do 1 hour of fighting, that the hour will equal around 5 durability points depending on the ship. Where is this claim now? What is the current ratio? The last developer response to such questions was the LGV challenge. Do you know how many LGV's need to be captured to fund 1 OW PvP ship and how often they spawn relative to people that need the money? 

The problem is in a Conjunction of Detail changes that all combine into making the game a job, a waste of time:

1. SHIP COST / DOCK SPACE - Durability was removed AND we did not get equal increase in Dock Space AND kept PvP ships expensive to build. For the casual player it's near impossible to gain entry to viable PvP  in a reasonable time, and stay competitive over time  (unless you are one of the few players winning consistently, or one of the few people that can afford to AFK-trade a major route). Why is a PvP Light Frigate taking the same dock-space as a Heavy Trader or First Rate? Why don't we have a separate dock for 5th rates (w/o inventory for balance) ?

2. RNG PvE REFIT / SKILL NONSENSE - Rare refits AND skill slots AND skill-books are RARE PvE DROPS. The ONLY rare drops in modern games should be cosmetics. I recall a Developer answer Pre-Wipe that there will be no XP wipe - misleading statement if it takes longer to XP grind the ship slots and find the books. Refit rarity makes people reluctant to sink - promoting running and ganking.  

3. SAILING TIMES: Nothing is done about sailing times in open-ocean between the nations. Teleport ability was repeatedly nerfed, and NOT compensated by other speed-up mechanics. Where are the TRADE WINDS or OCEAN CURRENTS? Suggestions buried and ignored. Where is the ability to sail with multiple prize-crew (non fighting) ships to restock a frontline port? Suggestions buried and ignored. 

3. RESPAWN AFTER SINKING: Just now- after the server died the ability to capture 5th rates was returned - should never have been turned off, and barely covers the loss of durability and loss of Dock space. Where is insurance? Where are other comeback mechanics? 

4. NEWBIE EXPERIENCE IS GARBAGE: We still have the 2nd Lieutenant missions spawning 3x Rookie Snows/Brigs. It's not even acknowledged as a problem.  New players keep getting screwed in the game - every patch something awful, often by design!  Game is hard enough at high level, make it easy on people that just started! This is the main source of bleeding and no player effort can close that gash. 

5. BASIC CUTTERS  - Why are they still in a game about Age of Square Sails? When Twitch streamers advertise the game they sail in Basic Cutters instead of Frigates. They show a false picture of the game. The same with any new player's first few hours. Shameful. 

6. OW PvP KILLING BUGS: Why do AI fleets still provide Super Speed + Invisibility, despite a developer claiming it shouldn't be so? Why do AI fleets provide Defensive Tag ability instead of Green on Green (positional) style tags? These things are killing OW PvP.

7. GANKING of Newbies - Why are there no areas specifically for playing low-level PvE missions for players of under a certain rank? 

8. REPAIRS - too expensive and repeated use in battles is something no-one likes. It gives an advantage to people who win more often, or people who spend more time grinding Economy. They should have been single-use, single-item, and easy to use regardless of price. If you wanted to implement supply-lines effect, you could do that without making the item a crutch in actual battles. 

9. COMEBACK MECHANICS - the game is literally a winner-take all with too many sides and too many rewards for winning. If you win in OW you gain tons of repairs and often a brand new ship. If you lose in OW you don't even gain much XP. RvR is similarly broken. There are no built in comeback mechanics or Reset mechanics like in other Sandbox games (See Albion Online or Crowfall promo videos - both developers of Sandbox games talk extensively about comeback mechanics). 

10. PvE BASED RvR Mechanics, and RvR mechanics in General - no details, all the arguments are available in other threads.

Recently the Developers offered two reasons why some of these things are not yet fixed, and I want them addressed:

I) They claim that people get bored from a game and leave. - False - Sandbox games like EVE (2003) have some of the best longevity in the industry - when developers follow a smart plan of growing the community. There are countless other examples of PvP focused games that stay popular, particularly when they can be played in 1 hour bursts and not 6 hour sessions (EVE manages to fit in both). 

II.) They are Low Budget Independent - True, but why is there no clear Road Map and Game Design Priorities that everyone can see in advance?  (Not just the Road map threads - where is the statement of the end-goal design?)

Why are there clear steps back taken? Why is the game being Forked into Legends if you have limited resources? 

Why are you not crowdsourcing for funds if you want to keep the lights on? Where are the cosmetics - why is selling Alts the only income source?

Players have two main rules to follow:

If the game is good at high level, you have fun by playing to win - to keep innovating and developing new strategies and counters. A really good game offers many forms of winning, and many play styles. 

If the game is not good at high level, the winning move is not to play.

http://sirlingames.squarespace.com/articles/playing-to-win-part-1.html 

This post may sound very harsh for Developers, I hope it's taken as tough love. You hold the game we all love in your hands, and we all want to see it all succeed. I no longer want to hear weak excuses, or blaming players. I want to hear optimism and confidence, and small steps in the right direction constantly. I want to see the grand plan to give Naval Action the same resurgence and growth as experienced by EVE. 

Edited August 12, 2017 by Tenet

[Hethwill]

Moved to General Discussions, as it is indeed a very important subject to discuss by ALL.

[vazco]

In my opinion the main problem is not the ship cost - in Eve the cost is much bigger. The problem is that there is no real mechanism to support even battles in OW. They're important because they're engaging and give satisfaction, not because they're fair. Ganking, chasing, escaping ,getting caught in a defenceless trader - it's simply not fun. Fighting in an even fight, possibly with some use of strategy, is fun and unique in this game.

I was lucky enough to get to a few great fights when I rejoined the game. If I didn't, I would have probably quit already. Give people more chance for cool fights, reward for such fights, and they will get hooked. For now, boring PvE is much more rewarding than PvP - especially fair PvP.

Having to work for a 1st or 3rd rate is actually very good, it adds epicness to the game. People are just used to sailing and sinking ships often, that's why so many complain. This is not the real issue, that's not why new people quit. The issue is that you need to have some knowledge and spend a lot of time before you can get to a meaningful combat. New players don't get to those battles before they quit, old players quit if those battles are not often.

Another issue is security of new players, however it's already being handled.

Edited August 11, 2017 by vazco

[Cabral]

18 minutes ago, vazco said:

Give people more chance for cool fights

 Signaling must return.

[Tenet]

52 minutes ago, vazco said:

In my opinion the main problem is not the ship cost - in Eve the cost is much bigger.

There is no insurance and profit in EVE to offset the cost of losses? Getting money in EVE is easier, particularly for the Corps that end up doing PvP. 

The problem is that there is no real mechanism to support even battles in OW. They're important because they're engaging and give satisfaction, not because they're fair. Ganking, chasing, escaping ,getting caught in a defenceless trader - it's simply not fun. Fighting in an even fight, possibly with some use of strategy, is fun and unique in this game.

I was lucky enough to get to a few great fights when I rejoined the game. If I didn't, I would have probably quit already. Give people more chance for cool fights, reward for such fights, and they will get hooked. For now, boring PvE is much more rewarding than PvP - especially fair PvP.

Agreed. I would have paid 1 mil gold to be in the last George Town PB and other fun fights.  

OW PvP is not made to offer fair fights, and it's currently -very- unfair with the way join mechanics and defensive tags work - the most efficient way to sink someone is to gank them from another battle, preventing them from seeing the numbers they face. Pretty much everyone so far agrees it should be fixed, but has no control over the fixing.  

Having to work for a 1st or 3rd rate is actually very good, it adds epicness to the game. People are just used to sailing and sinking ships often, that's why so many complain. This is not the real issue, that's not why new people quit. The issue is that you need to have some knowledge and spend a lot of time before you can get to a meaningful combat. New players don't get to those battles before they quit, old players quit if those battles are not often.

Maybe - but then fights should be balanced with BR or slots to prevent 25-first rates from being the only legit strategy. 

The frequency of Port Battles means that if you lose one such fleet, you won't have one to defend the next port. It's a huge slippery slope, much worse than in EVE. People who like 25v25 first-rates will criticize me for such suggestions, but it's just not feasible in the long run. Something has to give. 

Another issue is security of new players, however it's already being handled.

Sorry but not yet. New player experience and security is at all time low. It's "handled" when we see results. 

Replies in purple. Thank you for the discussion. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Tenet

[Cabral]

16 minutes ago, Tenet said:

Replies in purple. Thank you for the discussion. 

 Your replies in purple are almost all around Port Battles and he was talking about pvp on OW in general. It seems you Global pirates only dream with port battles, no wonder why that server has come to that situation.

[Tenet]

5 minutes ago, Cabral said:

 Your replies in purple are almost all around Port Battles and he was talking about pvp on OW in general. It seems you Global pirates only dream with port battles, no wonder why that server has come to that situation.

This was not intentional at all, I noted the problems with OW PvP and actually had a fun one earlier today - only because it was a gank and the other side tried  to sink my ship to be able to escape. If it was just a normal chase and gank it would be boring and stale. It's the way OW PvP works now. Defensive tags should go completely, particularly from AI. The ability to join one battle after exiting another unfortunately has to go, it's too broken for ambushes ( I was wrong about that before ). The new BR and Battle-Group mechanics allow fleets to avoid being split up so there is no problem with fixing the battle joining. 

We both love the game, if we didn't we would quit long ago - so why should we discuss our difference in a thread where the main objective is to highlight overall issues with the game. 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Tenet

[Hodo]

25 minutes ago, Tenet said:

In my opinion the main problem is not the ship cost - in Eve the cost is much bigger.

1-There is no insurance and profit in EVE to offset the cost of losses? Getting money in EVE is easier, particularly for the Corps that end up doing PvP. 

The problem is that there is no real mechanism to support even battles in OW. They're important because they're engaging and give satisfaction, not because they're fair. Ganking, chasing, escaping ,getting caught in a defenceless trader - it's simply not fun. Fighting in an even fight, possibly with some use of strategy, is fun and unique in this game.

I was lucky enough to get to a few great fights when I rejoined the game. If I didn't, I would have probably quit already. Give people more chance for cool fights, reward for such fights, and they will get hooked. For now, boring PvE is much more rewarding than PvP - especially fair PvP.

2-Agreed. I would have paid 1 mil gold to be in the last George Town PB and other fun fights.  

Having to work for a 1st or 3rd rate is actually very good, it adds epicness to the game. People are just used to sailing and sinking ships often, that's why so many complain. This is not the real issue, that's not why new people quit. The issue is that you need to have some knowledge and spend a lot of time before you can get to a meaningful combat. New players don't get to those battles before they quit, old players quit if those battles are not often.

3-Maybe - but then fights should be balanced with BR or slots to prevent 25-first rates from being the only legit strategy. 

The frequency of Port Battles means that if you lose one such fleet, you won't have one to defend the next port. It's a huge slippery slope, much worse than in EVE. People who like 25v25 first-rates will criticize me for such suggestions, but it's just not feasible in the long run. Something has to give. 

Another issue is security of new players, however it's already being handled.

4-Sorry but not yet. New player experience and security is at all time low. It's "handled" when we see results. 

1- Problem with that is in EVE you start with SOMETHING... here you start with nothing.   There is even a starter corp you get shoved into based on the "career" choice you want to follow.  Then there is the fact there is a real world cash economy behind EvE that helps.     Yes ships in EVE are more expensive... some are worth thousands of real world US Dollars and there are less than a dozen of them in game.  Sure there is insurance but even that doesnt offset the cost of some of those vessels in a loss.  

Most of the major corps in that do PVP not because they want to but because they have to.  In order to control the big ISK regions in nullsec you need to fight.  

I am a 10 year EVE vet.... 

[Tenet]

15 minutes ago, Hodo said:

1- Problem with that is in EVE you start with SOMETHING... here you start with nothing.   There is even a starter corp you get shoved into based on the "career" choice you want to follow.  Then there is the fact there is a real world cash economy behind EvE that helps.     Yes ships in EVE are more expensive... some are worth thousands of real world US Dollars and there are less than a dozen of them in game.  Sure there is insurance but even that doesnt offset the cost of some of those vessels in a loss.  

Most of the major corps in that do PVP not because they want to but because they have to.  In order to control the big ISK regions in nullsec you need to fight.  

I am a 10 year EVE vet.... 

I'm not, but many of my friends are EVE veterans. Developers should learn from it's success, particularly where it has better new player experience because that is key. The first 30 to 60 minutes determine if someone stays playing for the next week, and the first week of experience determines if they stay for the next year. 

In Naval Action this experience is generally awful - I'm saying that as someone who actively worked with new players to try and reduce the shock. The difficulty curve in this game is inverted - it's harder to start than be at the top. 

[Fellvred]

Don't agree with some of OPs points but as stated there seems to have been a strange lack of direction for quite a while. The combat system is frankly hello kittying insanely good fun and has sold the game to everyone I've shown it to. Yet the open world and econ side has evolved to actively block players (old and new) from participating in the best part of the game with a mix of over-complexity and a winner takes all mentality where anyone lower down the tree gets shat on constantly. 

There are a few quality of life changes that should be fairly quick to implement - getting rid of the 'ship slot' and 'warehouse slot' limits which are just irritating and don't add to the game.

Few points for the future:

• Getting rid of labour hours and implementing a new system based around resources + time - even logistics simulators like EVE don't use an extra labour mechanic and their combat is nowhere near the NA level. LHs also seem to increase the use of alts. Players would need to sail to respawning 'nodes' on the coast to collect resources?
• Simplify the crafting system for smaller ships.
• Encourage even and enjoyable combat by aggressively balancing rewards (gold, XP and marks for damage/kills/assists) around BR.
• Look again at 'lobby battles'. I'd love to see some battles become community events with several instances of the same battle being spawned (balanced by BR/ship size). These wouldn't have to replace port battles but it would make them much more enjoyable for more people if we had 200+ players joining (from port if necessary) rather than the 50 super ships players are forced to bring at the moment.
• More 'realistic' repairs with much longer times and crew costs so a player needs to disengage from direct combat before repairing - bring back skill based combat
• Allow viable PvP leveling on PvP servers for more players - stop forcing players to PvE?
• Increase the usability of the smaller ships. NA is a bit shackled by history compared to EVE but there are a few things that could still be done such as massively increasing shot dispersion on the larger vessels or giving various bonuses to smaller guns/ships to make them more viable.

I've love to start playing again but I just don't have the hours to put into it  : /

[Batman]

33 minutes ago, Tenet said:

 The first 30 to 60 minutes determine if someone stays playing for the next week, and the first week of experience determines if they stay for the next year. 

 

This. When I first entered the game on Jan. 21st 2016 and loaded into the main Screen I was like "What is this?". Then I saw that tiny message about the UI being a placeholder. "Ok" I thought. "But what do I have to do now?" I had absolutely no clue on how the UI worked, what the first steps in the game were. I nearly uninstalled. Only my love for sailing ships kept my in the game at this point.

Nothing has changed for new players. They get this ugly placeholder UI without any notification on what their first steps should be.

New players don't leave the game because of conquest mechanics.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Batman said:

This. When I first entered the game on Jan. 21st 2016 and loaded into the main Screen I was like "What is this?". Then I saw that tiny message about the UI being a placeholder. "Ok" I thought. "But what do I have to do now?" I had absolutely no clue on how the UI worked, what the first steps in the game were. I nearly uninstalled. Only my love for sailing ships kept my in the game at this point.

Nothing has changed for new players. They get this ugly placeholder UI without any notification on what their first steps should be.

New players don't leave the game because of conquest mechanics.

Same here. And imo the UI isn't the worst part. The PvE missions are downright boring and when you start out you're pretty much stuck at PvE grinding. The rattlesnake was at least a ship you could take to hostile waters as a low level toon. As I see it it was a mistake to include the heavy rattlesnake at all and the devs should've gone with the rattlesnake. A minor point as the main issue is the terrible grind that is basically sending players off in throves.

When I started out the game was fun - because there was a lot of PvP. Now you have to grind PvE in order to afford PvP and while PvE grinding should be viable, the PvP really should be the deciding factor on the PvP server. Just take the skill books - you have to grind PvE in order to get them. Why not make the "books" unlockable with PvP marks instead us all praying to our favourite random number jesus?

[vazco]

A good solution would be a system that would give you rewards for fighting fair, eg. by increasing your renown in a similar way like ELO system does in chess. If you fight in a BR disadvantage, or with enemy better than you, you could get more renown. If you fight in an advantage, your renown wouldn't grow, and would lower if you loose.

You would want to fight fair or in disadvantage even if just for fame. Rewards don' have to give you anything except for fame.

This would generate interesting fights, also outside of PB's.

Edited August 11, 2017 by vazco

[Mike the Mongel]

The game is no longer player friendly to 75% of players.. the 25% or less hardcore gamers who spend 8 to 10 hours a day into a game is not who the Devs need to be feeding to or listening too, maybe find that happy middle ground.

Currently the game and its hardcore (what I mean by hardcore is the time needed ingame a day grinding) mechanics are what is running people off, I have seen countless replies to other threads pointing fingers at certain clans or individuals, but the bigger picture is the game is not casual player friendly and due to the casual gamer allways being behind the curve when they log back in...the interest in staying with the game dwindles...hell I am now a casual gamer due to work changes and family and I am now currently fighting the urge to not leave the game.

PvP...peeps scream about lack of PvP now, but the mechanics/changes do not encourage PvP..it only makes peeps want to stay away from losing their ships.......

1 Dura..yes good for the hardcore gamer, he or she can replenish it quickly, but your major playerbase has not the time....fix it by allowing players to purchase insurance  or something or even 3 Dura for 4th Rates and higher as most PvP are within those areas as an example.....don't let the hardcore low percentage ruin your amazing game that can have a future.

Cost to get established or even setup as a newbie is just way over the top, and due to the Players who camp at capitals for carebear PvP it ruins the gameplay and the newest players say screw it.

RvR has no direction and still the Pirates are left out in the cold with no real direction on how the Pirates actually are part of the game.....

 

Unity 5 will not fix the game mechanics as of late, gents seriously the game has went from fun to feeling like a job to pulling teeth to want to stay logged in .

 

 

Edited August 11, 2017 by Mike the Mongel

[Tenet]

43 minutes ago, vazco said:

A good solution would be a system that would give you rewards for fighting fair, eg. by increasing your renown in a similar way like ELO system does in chess.

This can work but is somewhat difficult to figure out a ruleset to prevent abuse - very interesting to discuss. 

46 minutes ago, Bearwall said:

When I started out the game was fun - because there was a lot of PvP. Now you have to grind PvE in order to afford PvP and while PvE grinding should be viable, the PvP really should be the deciding factor on the PvP server. Just take the skill books - you have to grind PvE in order to get them. Why not make the "books" unlockable with PvP marks instead us all praying to our favourite random number jesus?

I think that people should get some rewards based on the damage they dealt, with possibility of almost equal rewards if you dealt enough damage. This way the losing side of a fight still has some incentive to turn around and try their luck. 

Not sure how to implement to avoid some forms of abuse - also deserves a detailed thread. The amount of XP you get from PvP should definitely be increased by several orders of magnitude - x10 or x100, with similar rewards to anyone that sinks a ship.

Edited August 12, 2017 by Tenet

[Batman]

32 minutes ago, Bearwall said:

 

When I started out the game was fun - because there was a lot of PvP. Now you have to grind PvE in order to afford PvP and while PvE grinding should be viable, the PvP really should be the deciding factor on the PvP server. Just take the skill books - you have to grind PvE in order to get them. Why not make the "books" unlockable with PvP marks instead us all praying to our favourite random number jesus?

I think we also have to get away from this constant fighting. As a new player you are forced to combat, even if you are a dedicated trader (We know these types of players exist in every mmo). You start with zero money, zero information about anything related to gameplay. A real good first experience for a new player.

 

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 hour ago, Mike the Mongel said:

The game is no longer player friendly to 75% of players.. the 25% or less hardcore gamers who spend 8 to 10 hours a day into a game is not who the Devs need to be feeding to or listening too, maybe find that happy middle ground.

Devs need to learn from other games like The Division that try to do every to to make the 10% Elite (which was more like 1% of the game pop happy).  When they finally started to change things for the other 90% of the game and gear towards the 75% Casuals (making some numbers up here) the game started to get better, but the problem is the damage was done.  These where things they should of figured out in test before release, not a year later when the game is almost dead.

I kinda like the way War Companies was going for those that want the RvR an it lets the rest that want PvP in OW or just do econ to do that.  The RvR should not control all the map no matter how powerful one nation or the other is, so having set capture zones that they can fight over will be better.  

1) Xp gain through combat should be based off damage done, sorry you have enough system to stop alt abuse and such stop hurting the little guys and casuals.  Very few folks have the 2-3 slots open on ships that you said would be the norm. I get the the higher or last two should be hard to get, but it shouldn't be so much xp you level up 10 times over to get you r4th or 5th slots.  The casual player should be getting to 2-3 slots in one ship they play all the time fairly easly. 

2)  PvP Rewards need to be High Risk/High Reward.   Give the leader boards a paint chest so it rewards players for PvP of the day.  This can than be traded with the Econ guys that want pretty paints.  Give the x5 CM, XP and Gold for PvP over PvE.  Right now I can get more XP and gold from doing solo PvE fleet missions.  That is not a good system that encourages PvE leveling over PvP.   I feel Combat Marks are pretty much level out now, but just don't feel the x2/3 is enough for the XP/Gold.  

3) I honestly don't like the signaling perk over all, but I did like the ROE in the shallows.  They should do a zone like this around capitals regions.  You still have the green zone around the capital that is safe, but put the new ROE around the region.  This will give new players more fair chance at fights and won't cost any one any perk points.

4) Crafting needs XP form something other than ships.  It's very hard for a new player to get up and starting cause they have to get a shipyard and craft basic small ships.  While in the past some one could earn the first 10 levels simply by helping out higher rank crafters by doing simple things like mats and such.  They don't have to give much, but anything is better than nothing.  Separate our crafting perks from combat perks.  We get 10 perks points for our rank that should go to combat perks only.   Tie Crafting perks to your Crafting level.  So that way some one that levels up a char to be a combat char can do so and some one that stay's low ranks  in the combat side can max out there crafting and enjoy that part of the game.  We have 50 crafting levels so why not give them one point ever 5 levels?  Than you can have your level 50 crafters that is RA's that can do both crafting and fighting.  We have guys burning 

5) Cost of things, I get you want us to burn gold, but why is the cost of docks and new out post so expensive?  It's like insanely expensive and I'm not sure how some casual player could unlock more than a few losts. I have 8-12 docks open on all my char and I'm dreading the next slot on one of the, but I'm not a casual players.  I got freaking almost 6K hours (some of that is AFK and falling asleep at the keyboard to be honest) in this game....I'm one of those 1% (maybe 10%).   If it's hard for me it's insane for some one that is casual.  I think OP are more real as I'm at 6-7 for my chars and it's still under the 1 milling, but opening your docks is like over 20 something million.   The only guys getting this type of money are the econ traders that run 4 Traders after reset and make millions.  It's for sure not the guys that do tones of PvP and actually use those ships for combat and back ups. 

6)  PIRATE MECHANICS.....if we can get this some day than folks will shut up about us being a Nation.  They still will bitch, but we will not just be another bastard child of a nation.

[Captain Lust]

Agree with most but not with "ships are too expensive"... if you play surprise or other cheaper 5th rates its pretty much in the right spot... losing a ship isnt too big of a deal but it hurts a bit too, especially with some nice upgrades - and thats how it should be imo...

 

14 hours ago, Tenet said:

RNG PvE REFIT / SKILL NONSENSE - They kept rare refits AND skill slots AND skill-books RARE PvE DROPS. The ONLY rare drops in modern games should be cosmetics.

It's pretty sad that, they don't get this...

 

14 hours ago, The Red Duke said:

Moved to General Discussions, as it is indeed a very important subject to discuss by ALL.

Don't think it needs discussion, since most of his statements are facts that nobody can argue... thanks for moving it though.

[vazco]

7 hours ago, Tenet said:

This can work but is somewhat difficult to figure out a ruleset to prevent abuse - very interesting to discuss. 

It's not hard, it' elementary to create a system like this that is abuse-prone. You simply need to make abusive actions more time-consuming than desired actions. I created such system a few times before, including ELO-based system for groups, with random numbers - almost exactly what's needed in NA 

You can find one abuse-prone system described here:

Of course such system would have to be tested against corner-case scenarios and improved. Since I'm not employed in GL, I didn't do this with a system linked above, as it would take some time. It's just an example.

 

[vazco]

Getting back to X-dura ships would be a big mistake. This is not a problem, as you can earn for eg. a 5'th rate in an hour, or capture a 5th rate in a single battle with AI. It's ok if OW battles happen in 5th rate, as it is right now.

The real problem is time that you need to get to meaningful combat, not time that you need to get a ship.

If someone can't get a 5th rate in an hour, then maybe it's also an issue of a hard access to information.

 

 

On the other hand, grinding ship knowledge is an issue. Grinding should only give you something to brag about - eg. ship paints. It shouldn't take so long to be able to compete with other PvP players by having even bonuses as others. RNG drops of ship knowledge is also an issue. Those are secondary issues though. The main one is time you need to get to those fights that w remember, which we play for - meaningful combat, with more or less even odds, which require some skill, startegy and cooperation to win (as opposed to numbers).

Legends won't solve this issue, as combats won't be meaningful there. In NA now you can play for something more than just a brief combat. You have community, politics and goals.  In Legends it won't be possible. Legends can be a tool to get more players in, however NA should be fixed to keep them for longer.

Edited August 12, 2017 by vazco

[Zoky]

You people don"t know what you want. You want this game to be more like EVE but actually you don't. There is no protection for new guys in EVE. There is no protection from getting ganked in EVE. There are no equal numbers RvR in EVE. There is no handholding of any kind in EVE, and that's why its entering its 15th year on market. 

[Hodo]

4 hours ago, Zoky said:

You people don"t know what you want. You want this game to be more like EVE but actually you don't. There is no protection for new guys in EVE. There is no protection from getting ganked in EVE. There are no equal numbers RvR in EVE. There is no handholding of any kind in EVE, and that's why its entering its 15th year on market. 

So true. They complain about labor hours in crafting and how it needs to be more like EVE.  LOL no they dont. It takes DAYS if not weeks to build a titan in that game, and that is the closest comparison to a 1st rate in NA.  Do you want to wait several weeks to build a single ship.   No not the components to make the ship but the actual ship itself.   Most of the people here would rage quit LONG before that ship was done.   

Then the fact that there is NO safe zones, even in 10.0 High Sec you can still be podded and then bio massed by a group of gank frigates.  Sure they will all lose their ships, but seeing as they are cheap and replaceable and most likely on a jump clone, it doesnt matter.   That or they could just war-dec your corp and kill you at will without CONCORD intervention.  

You say you want to be more like EVE, no you dont... you want EVE lite.

[Tenet]

13 minutes ago, Hodo said:

So true. They complain about labor hours in crafting and how it needs to be more like EVE.  LOL no they dont. It takes DAYS if not weeks to build a titan in that game, and that is the closest comparison to a 1st rate in NA.  Do you want to wait several weeks to build a single ship.   No not the components to make the ship but the actual ship itself.   Most of the people here would rage quit LONG before that ship was done.   

We don't have a Titan equivalent in the game. The power level difference between a 1st Rate and other ships is much more even.

You seem to be intentionally comparing extremes instead of apples to apples. 

Quote

Then the fact that there is NO safe zones, even in 10.0 High Sec you can still be podded and then bio massed by a group of gank frigates.  Sure they will all lose their ships, but seeing as they are cheap and replaceable and most likely on a jump clone, it doesnt matter.   That or they could just war-dec your corp and kill you at will without CONCORD intervention.  

You say you want to be more like EVE, no you dont... you want EVE lite.

The actual ship combat in Naval Action feels great, and seems to require a more interesting skillset than EVE. 

This gives the game the complexity needed so EVE-lite might be the right approach for the rest of the features. Naval Action combat + EVE-lite might be a winning combination - Adopt the Best, Discard the worst is the basis of all improvement.  

EVE veterans could help determine which things are worth adopting and which should be improved. 

Edited August 12, 2017 by Tenet

[Hodo]

11 minutes ago, Tenet said:

We don't have a Titan equivalent in the game. The power level difference between a 1st Rate and other ships is much more even.

You seem to be intentionally comparing extremes instead of apples to apples. 

The actual ship combat in Naval Action feels great, and seems to require a more interesting skillset than EVE. 

This gives the game the complexity needed so EVE-lite might be the right approach for the rest of the features. Naval Action combat + EVE-lite might be a winning combination - Adopt the Best, Discard the worst is the basis of all improvement.  

EVE veterans could help determine which things are worth adopting and which should be improved. 

Seeing as you have never played EVE, there is a lot of skill that goes into that game.  Much more than I had ever realized until I had played over 2 years and realized I was still in the dark on a lot of things.  Even after 10 years I still dont know half of what I should know.  

And seeing as the Titan is the big bad "ship of the line" in EVE that can obliterate fleets of smaller vessels without even losing its shields, that would be the closest thing to a 1st rate in game.  

1 well sailed Santisima can destroy a smaller fleet of ships with some ease if it has the wind advantage.   The 68lb Carronades on the stern of the Victory is more firepower than some 6th rates broadside weight.  

[Zoky]

2 hours ago, Tenet said:

Naval Action combat + EVE-lite might be a winning combination

This is actually my vision for NA. But devs keep watering down NA so that EVE lite part is almost gone