End ganking

[Simon Cadete]

The people defending the current mechanics are most likely the ones ganking.

Lets say you have 4 guys ganking people in an area with 2 surprises, a Trinc and a renommee or something like that. You get a couple guys in a couple connies to come engage them and they run away. Now multiply that by 50 and you pretty much get the current state of the game. 

There are barely any large engagements and it's all about hit and runs.

[Vllad]

10 minutes ago, Jean Ribault said:

 So Vllad what is your own definition of a gank? 

My definition goes back to the first time I ever saw it used in a game. The real meaning of Gank (outside of gaming) means "to steal". It was adapted for use in gaming back in UO and EQ1 when people would set up traps to kill people and steal there gear.

So basically if stealing something isn't involved than the term "Gank" shouldn't be used. i.e., a fight where one gets sunk is not a gank, that is just PVP. Attacking a trader and stealing his cargo, now that is the true meaning of a gank.

I am not trolling and I can accept that people may try to change what ganking means however players should be clear when attempting to make suggestions exactly what they mean. No where in the OP's statements did he describe actual ganking based on my definition.  Fargo makes some valid points but again no where in his statements does he describe ganking properly based on my definition. Any ship can kill a trade ship so by definition any ship can be used for ganking.

So given that players are not using the term gank like it was originally used I have to ask myself what do they actually mean?

If players can't agree on what ganking is then the developers certainly have no hope of doing so.

[Liq]

So sinking a ship in a 5v1 is not a gank; but capping a ship in that 5v1 is? huh

[Simon Cadete]

7 minutes ago, Vernon Merrill said:

LOL...  you write THIS and NOW complain about ganks?!?!?!?  

GTFOH

Next time you get ganked by 6 or 7 guys make sure you say thank you and good fight at the end. If me and some clan mates go out in big ships, nobody will attack us EVER. Gank squads only pick fights with no risk. That takes a lot of skill

Edited August 1, 2017 by Simon Cadete

[Hethwill]

So, if I am in a Pickle schooner and get attacked by a Belle Poule. Is that a gank ? If a LGV is attacked by a Cherubim and a Lynx joins, who is ganking who ?

Equal matches can be fun but lack memorable stories.

[Baptiste Gallouédec]

I think it's rarely a real gank problem, problem is that in naval action you don't always pick the fight you're in, the only way is being the fastest or in a larger group if you don't succeed you feel ganked.

 

 i can count on my hand the number of pvp i've been in where both sides where willing to engage the enemy. The side looking to escape will always feel ganked (some even feel ganked if they don't have more ships than the enemy.)  saltyness, frustration, rage comes from here.

 

The only solution to this problem i can see, would be the surrender button, tie it to a kind of insurance fee you can choose to pay each time you leave a port if ow pvp is such a fear for you. That way if you find annoying endless kite / run or fear not being able to replace your ship if catched, you hit surrender (after being hit at least one time), the enemy get the points, marks , your ship and it's cargo, and you save your time & crew plus get some decent money from insurance to buy another ship and guns.

No insurance for pirate (because of pvp mecanic)

 

[Fargo]

2 minutes ago, Vllad said:

Is it a gank ship when those fast agile ships are incapable of actually combating any sort of tank ship? Sure they can tag you and get you into combat but they can't actually sink you if everything else is equal.

Aren't gank ships based on your definition only really good at sinking other gank ships? If that is true then why call them gank ships? Why not just call them fast ships? You make it sound like there is one specific build out there that is killing everyone. Is that actually true?

Their are ships that are really good at escaping, however escaping is not really the same as ganking is it? You can make Pickles and Cerbs that will out run Surprises and stern camp them to boot.

Ofcourse they are. Rake down a tanky ship, sink or capture it. The tankier/slower your ship, the faster youre dead.

No, and how shall they catch them? Defensive tag, speedboost, gone.

No, but i said its also not capable of fighting anymore. You cant catch a surprise in a cerb or pickle. Ofcourse you can use a fast cerb for ganking, but why when there are way better ships. 

21 minutes ago, Vllad said:

Fair enough. So what is a gank?

The OP says we should get rid of it but if it can't be defined how does one remove it?

It doesnt matter how you define it for you, but it matters when certain tactics affect gameplay for everyone in a very negative way. When everyone is avoiding even combat, only picking easy targets, and you cant do something about it, thats a problem no matter how you name it. 

[Vernon Merrill]

I've been "ganked" more times than I can remember..  Sometimes I get away...  Sometimes I dont.   Its an MMO.   And yes, I always O7! unless the other person decides to shit-talk.  After all, we're NOT REALLY DYING HERE...  its pixels.

The DIFFERENCE is that one should ALWAYS have at least a 50/50 shot of survival if they get out of the instance...   THATS the compromise that players are required to accept with OW time compression.

 

I got away.  I win.  Deal with it and get me next time.

I got sunk.  I lose.  I deal with it and try and be better next time.

[Fargo]

5 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

So sinking a ship in a 5v1 is not a gank; but capping a ship in that 5v1 is? huh

You cant distinguish it no matter if the ship is sank or capped. The question is what happens when 4 ships join and it becomes an even 5v5. 

[Hethwill]

1 minute ago, Fargo said:

You cant distinguish it no matter if the ship is sank or capped. The question is what happens when 4 ships join and it becomes an even 5v5. 

A rout. That's what happens. 90% of the time.

[Jean Ribault]

17 minutes ago, Simon Cadete said:

The people defending the current mechanics are most likely the ones ganking.

...

Really?  I usually sail alone in a humble trader.  Am I a ganker because I don't agree with the premise of your original suggestion?

Again, the problem isn't ganking.  If ganking exists, then it's the result of the real problems in this game.  Find a way to populate these servers and you won't see many more ganking complaints.  The wisdom of the ages that says Idle hands are the devil's workshop is as true for this game as it is for your children.  If the dev's provide enough content in this game and the servers are populated with players then this kind of thread wouldn't even be happening, nor would ganks no matter how you define them.

[Vernon Merrill]

5 minutes ago, Fargo said:

You cant distinguish it no matter if the ship is sank or capped. The question is what happens when 4 ships join and it becomes an even 5v5. 

Again, the myth of reinforcements rears its ugly head....  Unless its your own clanmates (who should be sailing with you regrdless), there will NEVER be friendly ships that come and join on the weaker side of a 1v5....    What REALLY happens is that those 4 "reinforcements" either run or camp the battle and try and get another 12 guys to come and "revenge fleet" the original group of players...

Seen it a million times.  

[Hodo]

1 hour ago, Fargo said:

Read further. Fast and agile, with chasers, not capable of competing in combat, built for escaping.

LOL My Lynx and Privateer is my primary hunting ships, and they dont have chasers.   But I wont fight a "fair" fight if I can help it.

 

Even if I am out in my Snow I wont fight a fair fight,  I will seek every advantage I can get before the fight to assure victory.   But I guess my BR 50 Snow with chasers is a gank ship... even though all I have sank has been LGVs, Navy Brigs, and other Snows.  But I guess because everything that thing has sunk has been bigger BR or equal to mine I am a gank ship.

 

The problem @Simon Cadete isnt ganks, it is the person who is getting "ganked".   If you sail alone in a lumbering target and you cant operate it in a manner that you can defend yourself, then you are going to be an easy target for a hunting group.  Or a "gank party" as you call it.   

And a gank is when you jump a completely defenseless prey who has no chance at defending themself with such an overwhelming assault that it is over before they knew it began.   

Example, a Santisma joining a battle right next to a Trader Snow and unloading all 56gun broadside into it before the Snow can even raise sails.  That is a gank.   

Gank came from getting gakked, which was the sound most characters made in old MMOs when they died quickly.   The other possible origin is from shortening the term "gang rape" to ganked.   Not sure how it worked.. but it did.  

 

The current term is... you got WREKT or rekt for short.   

 

[Jean Ribault]

5 minutes ago, Hodo said:

...

The current term is... you got WREKT or rekt for short.   

 

That's hilarious, that is exactly what my son said to me when he sunk my ship, lol.  He said I got rekt.

And no, that was not a gank.  His Connie versus mine.

[Batman]

11 minutes ago, Fargo said:

You cant distinguish it no matter if the ship is sank or capped. The question is what happens when 4 ships join and it becomes an even 5v5. 

The attacking side (Gankers) get cold feet and turn around, making it a ninety minute chaining-running battle. A few days ago we lowered hostility in a certain region of the map against pirates. We saw them. We had less ships then the pirates, but some of our ships were heavier. While the pirates still had combat capable ships (yet all speed build ofc) and about double our numbers, they decided to run away as soon as the saw us. They want to fight, but only in their advantage.

[Simon Cadete]

1 minute ago, Jean Ribault said:

Really?  I usually sail alone in a humble trader.  Am I a ganker because I don't agree with the premise of your original suggestion?

Again, the problem isn't ganking.  If ganking exists, then it's the result of the real problems in this game.  Find a way to populate these servers and you won't see many more ganking complaints.  The wisdom of the ages that says Idle hands are the devil's workshop is as true for this game as it is for your children.  If the dev's provide enough content in this game and the servers are populated with players then this kind of thread wouldn't even be happening, nor would ganks no matter how you define them.

I agree that with a higher population this woul go away or become a rare thing but we're not getting a population boost any time soon

[Jean Ribault]

42 minutes ago, Simon Cadete said:

I agree that with a higher population this woul go away or become a rare thing but we're not getting a population boost any time soon

Not to belittle the suggestion of your OP, but if this statement is genuinely the case then we should be addressing the problem as a community of testers, not creating long-term workarounds for the real problems.

Edited August 1, 2017 by Jean Ribault

[Fargo]

2 minutes ago, Hodo said:

Even if I am out in my Snow I wont fight a fair fight,  I will seek every advantage I can get before the fight to assure victory.   But I guess my BR 50 Snow with chasers is a gank ship... even though all I have sank has been LGVs, Navy Brigs, and other Snows.  But I guess because everything that thing has sunk has been bigger BR or equal to mine I am a gank ship.

As i said, thats a valid tactic. But its a difference between just seeking an advantage, and systematically avoiding every combat without advantage. If youre systematically searching for bad players e.g., only picking those fights, i would call it a gank. No matter what your mindset is, just that people are allowed to do this without any risk is bad for gameplay. It sucks to be attacked by bad players that fall on every trick, and they dont get punished. You cant win anything, in the best case you just loose nothing.

[Hethwill]

Funny thing is the more population there is the more viable a hardcore option is as there are more options to steal what has been stolen, to sink and to get sunk. Low population recovery makes hardcore harder due to lack of targets so yeah... just sweep and go. After a while everything looks the same and all traders are alts. Gank or no gank this is the raw truth.

 

[Hodo]

2 minutes ago, Fargo said:

As i said, thats a valid tactic. But its a difference between just seeking an advantage, and systematically avoiding every combat without advantage. If youre systematically searching for bad players e.g., only picking those fights, i would call it a gank. No matter what your mindset is, just that people are allowed to do this without any risk is bad for gameplay. It sucks to be attacked by bad players that fall on every trick, and they dont get punished. You cant win anything, in the best case you just loose nothing.

If I dont have the advantage, I disengage.  

I learned a long time ago in ROTC at NMMI, a smart commander will seek an advantage before the battle.   A poor commander will seek to force an advantage after the battle started. 

So if I dont have the advantage before the fight, I wont try and force the advantage.  I will just leave.  

[Liq]

4 minutes ago, Hodo said:

If I dont have the advantage, I disengage.  

I learned a long time ago in ROTC at NMMI, a smart commander will seek an advantage before the battle.   A poor commander will seek to force an advantage after the battle started. 

So if I dont have the advantage before the fight, I wont try and force the advantage.  I will just leave.  

You dont like a challenge in an outnumbered battle? A little disappointing

[Hodo]

4 minutes ago, Liquicity said:

You dont like a challenge in an outnumbered battle? A little disappointing

Just because I am outnumbered doesnt mean I dont have the advantage.  

[Fargo]

1 minute ago, Hodo said:

So if I dont have the advantage before the fight, I wont try and force the advantage.  I will just leave.  

Nobody is blaming you for that. The problem is that game mechanics allow you to avoid all combat you want to avoid. You might be happy with it, but for a game that more or less only is about naval combat that is really bad. Nobodys asks for fair fights, but this is heavily promoting unfair fights.

[Slamz]

The problem is that "fairness" cannot be measured by BR.

Even if you are in a Surprise and I am in a Surprise, it's not necessarily fair. Ship build, cannon selection, who-hit-who-with-what-wind and most importantly, captain skill, all come into play.

This is why ultimately the solution to fairness is to understand points of sail, "defensive tagging" and having a pretty fast ship. This lets you decide what's fair and what's not. Run from ganks. Engage fair fights.

I find the OW to be fair most of the time because I'm very good at avoiding fights I don't like the look of.

[Vernon Merrill]

7 minutes ago, Fargo said:

Nobody is blaming you for that. The problem is that game mechanics allow you to avoid all combat you want to avoid. You might be happy with it, but for a game that more or less only is about naval combat that is really bad. Nobodys asks for fair fights, but this is heavily promoting unfair fights.

Fargo, you DO realize the penalty for speed is HP, right?  That BALANCE.   

I'll never understand why these big-ship captains allow themselves to be tagged when the other ship is right on top of them...  If I have to work my way up to a Connie in a speed Surprise, I'm as good as dead...  

Honestly, I'm not anything more than an average captain, and I know that big guns will win in  DPS situation..