Port Battle Fleet Composition

[Captiva]

Now that we're on the verge of going hardcore in NA, I believe it's time to have a serious discussion regarding fleet composition in port battles. The attached photo is included just as a visual (substitute a 1st rate for the carrier, and two 2nd rates and two 3rd rates for the remaining ships).

We've argued to strive for as much reality in all other aspects of the game. I believe it's time to tackle this one.

To use a deep water port battle as an example, I suggest having 5 separate battle groups that make up the fleet; each of the five battle groups within the fleet would be made up of: One 1st rate, Two 2nd rates and Two 3rd rates.  

Fleet total: Five 1st rates, Ten 2nd rates and Ten 3rd rates per side.

Fellow Forum member z4ys has been supportive of the idea and encouraged me to think it through and submit an idea. He thought that the biggest flaw would be that the majority of players would always want to be in the 1st rates, and therefore there would be a constant conflict for who gets in the biggest ship. I say, the game should simply make it mandatory to have a composition similar to this, and the players will just have to adapt. After all, we're just used to 25 L'Oceans vs 25 L'Oceans port battles out of habit. If diverse fleet composition had been mandatory for port battles since their inception, we would have been none the wiser, and would have always played by those rules. We all will adapt to this change just as we will adapt to no teleports, single dura ships and all of the other upcoming changes to the game.

I encourage everyone to submit any other suggestions that may further improve on this idea. My thought was that it would add a touch more authenticity to port battles.

Thanks for your time.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2017 by Captiva
wording

[Sir Texas Sir]

only way to do this is with a loby, you will get your loby game with the arena game.

[Hethwill]

Return to simple shallow and deep ports.

Deep Ports control areas - one area can only be controlled by 5th &4th rates ( and anything below ), another area only controlled by SOLs, another area by all rates.

Shallows - one area for 6th rates, another for 7th rates, the third by all.

[Vernon Merrill]

Bathymetry

 

[Sir Texas Sir]

1 hour ago, The Red Duke said:

Return to simple shallow and deep ports.

Deep Ports control areas - one area can only be controlled by 5th &4th rates ( and anything below ), another area only controlled by SOLs, another area by all rates.

Shallows - one area for 6th rates, another for 7th rates, the third by all.

Yah the only way to do it I would say is set the BR limit for the port battle of what ship can come in and below.  It wouldn't be a slot limit as if you have a 2nd rate port than only 2nd rates and below can be at that port battle.  If you have a 7th rate port battle ......I better get a gunboat BP lol

[Captiva]

1 hour ago, The Red Duke said:

Deep Ports control areas - one area can only be controlled by 5th &4th rates ( and anything below ), another area only controlled by SOLs, another area by all rates.

Shallows - one area for 6th rates, another for 7th rates, the third by all.

I was hoping there could be a solution so that  the ship rates wouldn't be separated; back to a single circle maybe?. I thought of a battle you witnessed, Duke, where the smaller ships were acting as protectors of a larger ship. 

So, at least in the early stages of the battle, there would be 5 battle groups; each group initially protecting it's 1st rate. As the battle progressed the individual groups would probably slowly disperse due to mayhem and loses.

Just thought a system such as this would add deeper layers for strategic and tactical options. 

[Norfolk nChance]

 

Have a look at this, more to do with the OP Image than NA....    

http://analytics.csis.org/fpds/navybeta1/       

 

Build your own US Navy....   

 

 

[Christendom]

I'd definitely like to see less SOL battles, maybe centered around the capital areas.  

[Grundgemunkey]

2 hours ago, Captiva said:

I was hoping there could be a solution so that  the ship rates wouldn't be separated; back to a single circle maybe?. I thought of a battle you witnessed, Duke, where the smaller ships were acting as protectors of a larger ship. 

So, at least in the early stages of the battle, there would be 5 battle groups; each group initially protecting it's 1st rate. As the battle progressed the individual groups would probably slowly disperse due to mayhem and loses.

Just thought a system such as this would add deeper layers for strategic and tactical options. 

I dont know how many port battles youve actually taken part in ... but my experience it  seems  hard enough for a commander to fully control a 25 ship fleet  of the same rate . just different builds give different speeds  and turn rates .and make it hard .. one of the reasons ..there was a meta for port battles .. if everyone has the same ship and the same build .. it becomes much easier to manouver and keep control of the battle ...

limiting the br or only allowing for example 5 first rates  in a battle will just alienate  some players ,, why shoulld some players have to sail a 3rd rate ,,,when others get to sail a 1st ..

I want to be in the best ship I have ..that gives me the best chance of  1. sinking someone and 2. not sinking myself

i dont want to be in a 3rd ratte up against a santi ...... i dont want to be in a essex v a connie etc etc .... I dont want to lose my ship ..that is now hard to replace just because  a mixed rate fleet is more  aesthetically pleasing to someone

 

 

[William Death]

They could add shallows into the PB instances. Make one of the circles be positioned over shallows. That way, if its a first rate PB, you can bring all first rates and still have a chance to win, but you'll be giving up one circle automatically (because no first rate will be able to float in that circle). Or, you could bring a mixed fleet and have enough shallower ships to float in that circle, giving you a chance to take it.

The shallows would have to work like they do in OW: the closer to land, the shallower it is, and the smaller the ship you need to be able to get there.

For example, in a "deep water" PB, the outermost regions of the shallower circle can be accessed by third rates, the middle of the circle by fourth rates, and the very shallowest parts by fifth rates. Also, the area around the circle would have slowly-increasing depth, meaning that first and second rates have to keep their distance from the circle: they can still hit ships at range that are in the circle, but they won't be able to camp the edge of the circle and take out fifth rates sitting inside the circle. Furthermore, each ship has a draft: an Indefatigable has a similar draft to the Constitution, so it will only be able to float in slightly shallower water; but a Belle Poule is considerably shallower on the draft than the Agamemnon, so it can get much closer to shore than the Agamemnon can. All of this is basically already present in OW: a first rate can't get as close to land as a brig can. 

I'm not sure how much work it would be to code this into PBs but I do think it would be a good system. It allows you to bring 25 first rates if you want to, but it encourages you to have a mixed fleet that will be able to conquer and fight the shallower areas. 

I am 100% against any lobby PB system: it prevents people from sailing the ships they want to sail. For this game to be successful, you can't be forcing people to sail ships they don't want to sail, or play roles they don't want play. So no BR caps, and no limiting the number of each class of ship. Instead, let the clans and players form a strategy and make a fleet that will work with that strategy.

[Busterbloodvessel]

8 hours ago, Willis PVP2 said:

They could add shallows into the PB instances. Make one of the circles be positioned over shallows. That way, if its a first rate PB, you can bring all first rates and still have a chance to win, but you'll be giving up one circle automatically (because no first rate will be able to float in that circle). Or, you could bring a mixed fleet and have enough shallower ships to float in that circle, giving you a chance to take it.

The shallows would have to work like they do in OW: the closer to land, the shallower it is, and the smaller the ship you need to be able to get there.

For example, in a "deep water" PB, the outermost regions of the shallower circle can be accessed by third rates, the middle of the circle by fourth rates, and the very shallowest parts by fifth rates. Also, the area around the circle would have slowly-increasing depth, meaning that first and second rates have to keep their distance from the circle: they can still hit ships at range that are in the circle, but they won't be able to camp the edge of the circle and take out fifth rates sitting inside the circle. Furthermore, each ship has a draft: an Indefatigable has a similar draft to the Constitution, so it will only be able to float in slightly shallower water; but a Belle Poule is considerably shallower on the draft than the Agamemnon, so it can get much closer to shore than the Agamemnon can. All of this is basically already present in OW: a first rate can't get as close to land as a brig can. 

I'm not sure how much work it would be to code this into PBs but I do think it would be a good system. It allows you to bring 25 first rates if you want to, but it encourages you to have a mixed fleet that will be able to conquer and fight the shallower areas. 

I am 100% against any lobby PB system: it prevents people from sailing the ships they want to sail. For this game to be successful, you can't be forcing people to sail ships they don't want to sail, or play roles they don't want play. So no BR caps, and no limiting the number of each class of ship. Instead, let the clans and players form a strategy and make a fleet that will work with that strategy.

Or you could just limit the BR for a PB so that you can mix the fleet composition e.g. a lot of small ships or a few large ships or some combination between. This will add variety to PB's as we work out the best combos.

 

Buster (sailing by)

Edited May 19, 2017 by Busterbloodvessel

[Captiva]

15 hours ago, Grundgemunkey said:

i dont want to be in a 3rd ratte up against a santi ...... i dont want to be in a essex v a connie etc etc .... I dont want to lose my ship ..that is now hard to replace just because  a mixed rate fleet is more  aesthetically pleasing to someone

Grundgemunkey. I have to correct something. I never once gave "aesthetecally pleasing" as an argument for this idea. I did say (in my first response) that it would add more strategic and tactical depth to port battles. I also believe that having mixed rate ship composition would reflect port battles in an historically more authentic way; this is important for some of us.

Remember also, that the majority of ships would be 2nd rates and 3rd rates (twenty per side), while there would be only five 1st rates per side. In the early stages of the battle the 2nd and 3rd rates would initially be providing protection for the 1st rates within each of the five battle groups. I would personally have no problem being in one of the 2nd or 3rd rates, but I agree with you that this would be an issue with many - probably most - players. I do not have a solution for this dilemma which is why I asked for ideas.

After thinking on this a little longer, this type of idea would probably never be implemented simply due to players accepting the current norm of 25 vs 25 L'Ocean slug-fests; old habits are hard to break. But I and others can dream. : ) 

Thanks

[William Death]

6 hours ago, Busterbloodvessel said:

Or you could just limit the BR for a PB so that you can mix the fleet composition e.g. a lot of small ships or a few large ships or some combination between. This will add variety to PB's as we work out the best combos.

 

Buster (sailing by)

No. Then you HAVE to have some sort of lobby system because if everyone shows up in first rates and everyone clicks join at the same time, who gets in? It will force people into ships they don't want to be in, which is a sure way to drive players away. Nobody will be happy when they sailed a first rate for an hour to get to a PB only to find out that a couple low-level captains in frigates filled his BR about 2 seconds before he could press the button. Then he's stuck outside in his extremely-valuable-and-extremely-hard-to-make first rate at the mercy of whatever screening group wants to tag him. NO BR LIMITS! Don't directly force anyone into varied ships, instead force them indirectly by giving strong incentive to bring a diverse fleet (by adding shallows), but don't require them to bring this varied fleet to win (they can win with two circles but they will have to deal with the enemy fleet over a longer period of time than if they brought some frigates to take the shallow circle).

[Grundgemunkey]

9 minutes ago, Captiva said:

Grundgemunkey. I have to correct something. I never once gave "aesthetecally pleasing" as an argument for this idea. I did say (in my first response) that it would add more strategic and tactical depth to port battles. I also believe that having mixed rate ship composition would reflect port battles in an historically more authentic way; this is important for some of us.

Remember also, that the majority of ships would be 2nd rates and 3rd rates (twenty per side), while there would be only five 1st rates per side. In the early stages of the battle the 2nd and 3rd rates would initially be providing protection for the 1st rates within each of the five battle groups. I would personally have no problem being in one of the 2nd or 3rd rates, but I agree with you that this would be an issue with many - probably most - players. I do not have a solution for this dilemma which is why I asked for ideas.

After thinking on this a little longer, this type of idea would probably never be implemented simply due to players accepting the current norm of 25 vs 25 L'Ocean slug-fests; old habits are hard to break. But I and others can dream. : ) 

Thanks

no problem with what you want .., but you have to accept that in a game people are not going to accept  a role within a battle that will end up with them losing their ship ..

there is a limit to historical accuracy when playing a game .. in reality captains outranked  each other ..even of the same rank where seniority came into play .. try telling 3-4 other gamers to sacrifice their ships to save your first rate ... you cannot court marshall them for thelling you to hello kitty off

historically warships didnt battle against traders ..if the trader came into range the trader simply surrendered ..they didnt want to die

its not about the norm or habit is about the reality of playing a game rather than reality

[Captiva]

We have different visions for port battles. Personally, if I was asked to help defend a national port and it required me to captain one of the smaller rated ships, I would have no problem doing so. However, I respect and understand your view, which is also the majority view.

Cheers

[Farrago]

We may very well end up with variety no matter what "rules" are put in place.

1. Lineships will be expensive to make.

2. They'll require a high level ship yard. Probably most crafters will put these yards near capital waters although perhaps we'll eventually have the population and wealth to build remote shipyards as the lines of conquest advance.

3, When a port battle is triggered, how many of those ports do you think will already have 25 first rates in it? No more towing to specific ports. Defenders are usually going to have to sail them in. Smart attacker will watch for this reinforcement in the day(s)/hours prior to PB and try to take some of them out. Defenders will need to guard these reinforcing slow fleets. OW PVP anyone?

Anyway I think it will be a long time before we see 25 L'Ocean v 25 L'Ocean or even 25 first rates v 25 first rates and even then it will be a much more rare happening.

[Captain Lust]

30 minutes ago, Farrago said:

We may very well end up with variety no matter what "rules" are put in place.

1. Lineships will be expensive to make.

2. They'll require a high level ship yard. Probably most crafters will put these yards near capital waters although perhaps we'll eventually have the population and wealth to build remote shipyards as the lines of conquest advance.

3, When a port battle is triggered, how many of those ports do you think will already have 25 first rates in it? No more towing to specific ports. Defenders are usually going to have to sail them in. Smart attacker will watch for this reinforcement in the day(s)/hours prior to PB and try to take some of them out. Defenders will need to guard these reinforcing slow fleets. OW PVP anyone?

Anyway I think it will be a long time before we see 25 L'Ocean v 25 L'Ocean or even 25 first rates v 25 first rates and even then it will be a much more rare happening.

Yeah, and it's awesome. A 1st rate should be a sight to behold and not "hey, yeah i got 5 of them parked in the dock, do you want one for the upcoming PB?"