Game is bleeding players

[Justme]

Honestly, I think releasing on steam early access this early in the pipeline was a mistake.

There are some fundamental game mechanics that are heavily flawed and need completely re-working. My worry is that the developers are so emotionally attached and invested that they are making elemental mistakes that could otherwise be avoided with a little more care and overview. This is by no means bashing them for the work they have done so far, as the game IS beautiful, and it without a doubt has huge potential. This is their first MMO as I understand, so there is a HUGE learning curve. So far they have done an impressive job with such a small team, however with that said I can't help but feel that hard work is being done in the wrong places.

Releasing on SEA is meant to be an opportunity for developers to work a community up in to a frenzy about their game. With underwhelming user interface, lack of basic tutorials, and nations being decimated by flawed mechanics, players have been "jumping ship" faster than a rat. It was simply too early.

The daily unique player count has dropped drastically, more than enough to have all the players on a single server, instead of spread thin amongst several.

It honestly feels the developers don't care if there is a large playerbase, given their most recent statement in this thread. That alone could turn off new players.

[KrakkenSmacken]

It honestly feels the developers don't care if there is a large playerbase, given their most recent statement in this thread. That alone could turn off new players.

Or it could impress them that the Devs have demonstrated they will do what is best for the game rather than what is best for revenue.

[Mrdoomed]

Or it could impress them that the Devs have demonstrated they will do what is best for the game rather than what is best for revenue.

This statement could not be more true. I cant see the future but im almost positive that the devs very good attitude towards keeping this game the way they intended instead of caving in and making just another cookie cutter game , will in the end land them more than enough players and word of mouth and social media will bring in more.

From what i see its the people who want to change the fundamental backbone of the game into just another click fest are the ones who seem the most jaded.

I think the devs know this and are ok with it and its why it upsets the masses so much.

[mouse of war]

This game has got so much room for development - new sea areas - new eras.

 

Give us a 20th century version and it will eat World of Warships

[Hethwill]

Blasphemy !!! Replacing wind and Nature with polution and steel....

 

ah nevermind... it is just pixels

[KrakkenSmacken]

Blasphemy !!! Replacing wind and Nature with polution and steel....

 

ah nevermind... it is just pixels

 

{Note: not a serious suggestion}

 

Make it more period related. Have Da Vinci Ornithopters that drop grape canisters from the sky.  

 

Best/Worst of all worlds.

[surfimp]

Or it could impress them that the Devs have demonstrated they will do what is best for the game whatever the hell they want, rather than what is best for revenue.

FTFY.

I don't think it's a bad thing, either. But they're clearly not concerned about revenue at this point. More power to them!

[Cragger]

Short term, if everyone stopped playing today it would have no impact as there is no subscription or transactions post purchase. Long term of course the game would be ruined as you only ever get one first impression going public.

[ulysse77]

Honestly, I think releasing on steam early access this early in the pipeline was a mistake.

There are some fundamental game mechanics that are heavily flawed and need completely re-working. My worry is that the developers are so emotionally attached and invested that they are making elemental mistakes that could otherwise be avoided with a little more care and overview. This is by no means bashing them for the work they have done so far, as the game IS beautiful, and it without a doubt has huge potential. This is their first MMO as I understand, so there is a HUGE learning curve. So far they have done an impressive job with such a small team, however with that said I can't help but feel that hard work is being done in the wrong places.

Releasing on SEA is meant to be an opportunity for developers to work a community up in to a frenzy about their game. With underwhelming user interface, lack of basic tutorials, and nations being decimated by flawed mechanics, players have been "jumping ship" faster than a rat. It was simply too early.

The daily unique player count has dropped drastically, more than enough to have all the players on a single server, instead of spread thin amongst several.

 

 

Well at some point they needed to test the infrastructure with more players, that in itself is a fgood reason to release to OW... I;ve logged in at some time last summer where we were less than 30 online... I suspect that the world could eventually support more people than 2500, but they wanted to be sure they could manage before raising the limits, i wouldn`t be suprise if we see a server merge at some point if one shard can support more.

Edited March 21, 2016 by ulysse77

[KrakkenSmacken]

Short term, if everyone stopped playing today it would have no impact as there is no subscription or transactions post purchase. Long term of course the game would be ruined as you only ever get one first impression going public.

 

I don't think that "first impression" logic works as much as it used to.

 

 It's far more accepted that things are updated and changed frequently.  It may take a bit of spin (Naval Action - Spanish Wars)  or some such, but the fact is that more people in general know things change, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse, and are more willing to give something a second chance.

 

Especially if they already spent money on it the first time and don't have to re-invest.

[admin]

Before it gets too far we want to clarify our statement as it seems that our message is being rephrased away from its real meaning.

• We never said we don't want more players (more happy players). 
• We said that games always bleed players and its ok. It happens for many reason and other dolls are the main reason. I don't play Empire total war and XCOM - i got all i wanted out of them. They bleed players but its ok. If you got everything you wanted out of the game its ok to move on. This does not say anything about the game.

Main reason people leave 

• they found something more exciting for a while and will come back
• this is not something they expected but they accept that this view is also good but not for them (hardcore AC Black flag fans for example who prefer fast action on sailing motorboats with instakills from swivels)
• they hate the game (reviews show that its not the case) or some mechanics that game is not going to change

Naval Action is an experience trying to show certain elements of age of sail combat and conquest the way the captain of that time saw them (with certain simplifications). This experience might not be exciting to some and its ok. 

 

Take ganking for example. Vanstabel convoy (100 ships) ganked at least 20 british vessels on its way to France from USA. USS Constitution escaped from the gank - the so-called Great Chase. Yet many people don't like it and they call ganking the reason they are leaving the game. Should we care for this? It was part of the real age of sail experience. Purists will say it should stay - but it bleeds players.

[Cragger]

Before it gets too far we want to clarify our statement as it seems that our message is being rephrased away from its real meaning.

• We never said we don't want more players (more happy players). 
• We said that games always bleed players and its ok. It happens for many reason and other dolls are the main reason. I don't play Empire total war and XCOM - i got all i wanted out of them. They bleed players but its ok. If you got everything you wanted out of the game its ok to move on. This does not say anything about the game.

Main reason people leave 

• they found something more exciting for a while and will come back
• this is not something they expected but they accept that this view is also good but not for them (hardcore AC Black flag fans for example who prefer fast action on sailing motorboats with instakills from swivels)
• they hate the game (reviews show that its not the case) or some mechanics that game is not going to change

Naval Action is an experience trying to show certain elements of age of sail combat and conquest the way the captain of that time saw them (with certain simplifications). This experience might not be exciting to some and its ok. 

 

Take ganking for example. Vanstabel convoy (100 ships) ganked at least 20 british vessels on its way to France from USA. USS Constitution escaped from the gank - the so-called Great Chase. Yet many people don't like it and they call ganking the reason they are leaving the game. Should we care for this? It was part of the real age of sail experience. Purists will say it should stay - but it bleeds players.

 

I do enjoy how often you bring up the Great Chase yet never mention the thousands of single ship actions throughout history. The ones that brought renown to their commanders and prize money for their crews. 

[admin]

I do enjoy how often you bring up the Great Chase yet never mention the thousands of single ship actions throughout history. The ones that brought renown to their commanders and prize money for their crews. 

 

 

I play in a small group leveling only in pvp. The largest battle i saw was the mix pirates/danes 10v12 brigs/frigates.

Most battles are duels and small engagements from 1v1 to 4vX depending on our risk appetite that evening.

More than 50% of battles are duels for members of my group (of course for every great duel there are a couple of great chases)

 

My only concern is that for solo fights there are only 4 viable ships (maybe 5)

privateer (for traders and light ships)

niagara

renommee

trincomalee

(maybe surprise if you run by tacking but will not work in many cases against a big gank)

the rest just cannot escape in most cases

[KrakkenSmacken]

 Yet many people don't like it and they call ganking the reason they are leaving the game. Should we care for this? It was part of the real age of sail experience. Purists will say it should stay - but it bleeds players.

 

Welp, I would say to the Purists that I don't expect them to order and eat hard tack with weevils either.

 

Fun > Purism > Arcade  Where purism creates "Not fun", it needs to be compromised.  Where Arcade and Purism create different kinds of fun, Purism wins every time.  The real rub is that "fun" is relative.  Sigh, good luck guys.

 

In regards to Ganks.

 

Should a massively unbalanced gank be possible? yea it should be.

 

Should it be common and a day to day tactic? Nope.

 

I would say the focus for those mechanics needs to be to make it HARD and require both planning, and tricking your prey into making a mistake to pull off a good gank.  

 

For example limit BR imbalance to where you are close enough to call for reinforcements. If you are close to your towns, you can not be overwhelmed by more than 1.5/1 BR.  Then you don't even need the reinforcements mechanics.

 

No limits out side of that zone, or in enemy waters  

 

Then pulling off a gank will only happen if you lure a person away from "safer" waters, or meet up on the truly "open" sea.

 

Possible, but not frequent.

[Nelson Hornblower]

If people are concerned about ganking so much, go explore more of the map. I'm playing near Key West and while a fleet of 4 or 5 ships sail by once and awhile, I do see plenty of single players sailing as well. My initial impressions are that people love to stay close to everyone else, yet that is where some of the greater risk lies. Move beyond capitals and populated areas and see what is out there. I find great joy of being out at see, not seeing anyone but scanning the horizons and then spotting a sail and either fleeing or trying to hunt them down. 

[Mrdoomed]

Where are people finding all these horrible ganks ? I have a port as close to the largest factions capital as i could get it and purposely go right after them every day almsot and im able to find at least a few good fights before the hounds are released.

Even with a dozen ships after me i almost NEVER am cornered into a fight and the very few times i am i used the atrack key to my advantage and attack while im at max range. Just this weekend my very small group of 4 had been fighting larger ships and having fun but was then chased by at least 8 or 9 guys in trincs, 3rd rates, reno and various small ships.

Well we split up and they followed me and after a long chase it seemed the trincs were catching me soooo i attacked them and kept them in my circle. They all congratulated me on my great move and wished me luck and let me alone.

I just tell this story because unless you have no situational awarness getting ganked is almost impossible. They may try but so what, get some fights in then run off and come back. Ive been doing this since EA started and do it against the largest faction and have more gold , ships, resorces etc than i can use.

Heck i havent seen my own factions ports in over a month.

[KrakkenSmacken]

Where are people finding all these horrible ganks ? I have a port as close to the largest factions capital as i could get it and purposely go right after them every day almsot and im able to find at least a few good fights before the hounds are released.

Even with a dozen ships after me i almost NEVER am cornered into a fight and the very few times i am i used the atrack key to my advantage and attack while im at max range. Just this weekend my very small group of 4 had been fighting larger ships and having fun but was then chased by at least 8 or 9 guys in trincs, 3rd rates, reno and various small ships.

Well we split up and they followed me and after a long chase it seemed the trincs were catching me soooo i attacked them and kept them in my circle. They all congratulated me on my great move and wished me luck and let me alone.

I just tell this story because unless you have no situational awarness getting ganked is almost impossible. They may try but so what, get some fights in then run off and come back. Ive been doing this since EA started and do it against the largest faction and have more gold , ships, resorces etc than i can use.

Heck i havent seen my own factions ports in over a month.

 

I think it has to do with players who used to be able to use post battle mechanics to jump out of that instance and into a new one that started off as a 1v1 on newbs trying to do missions.

 

I also think the 2 minute battle close window has removed the ability to do that, as the ships pop out invulnerable for too long to enter before it closes.

 

But I could be wrong.  I've never been daft enough to get caught, or they haven't been operating while I was on.

[Slamz]

• We said that games always bleed players and its ok. It happens for many reason and other dolls are the main reason. I don't play Empire total war and XCOM - i got all i wanted out of them. They bleed players but its ok. If you got everything you wanted out of the game its ok to move on. This does not say anything about the game.

 

My only concern (and I think, from other postings, you would agree) are when people who should really enjoy this game long term quit early because something not-fun got in the way of their long term enjoyment.

 

For example, they would really enjoy high level gameplay, deep water port battles, rated ship combat, long term economy, map strategy, etc, but they couldn't stand to sit through literally 100 hours of mandatory smaller ship combat and bot-grinding required to reach the part they should have enjoyed.

 

The people who DO enjoy leveling up play this game like X-COM -- one run through and done. They reached the end and are satisfied with their progress and position and are done with the game. That's fine, but how much of the game design should focus on these people (who play maybe 300 hours and quit forever) versus how much should focus on the wargamers and PvPers (who could play for 1000s of hours if they could reach the "fun stuff").

 

Small ship combat is fun too, but not the amount of it that this game makes people do. Really it would be nice if people could rapidly rank up to 5th rates and then slow down through 4th rates, with 1st-3rd rates being more of a long term goal. Maybe that would be a more reasonable compromise between "rank farmers", who demand long term PvE goals, and "wargamers" who just want to be effective in combat.

[Slamz]

Many people say that grind is very bad in NA

 

Really it's only bad because if you don't do it, your gameplay is restricted.

 

A Cerberus or Surprise captain is not very effective in a deep water port battle. He might even get yelled at because he took up a spot that should have been a 3rd rate or at least a Trincomalee. In order to make the rank required for those ships, he might grind.

 

 

This is why I think the root problem may not be "the grind" so much as the port battle mechanics themselves. Port flips can't be so important and decided entirely by 1 battle where the heaviest ships are required. If the Surprise captain could do something useful to help in port flips, which didn't take up a slot from a bigger ship, I think people would be much happier and not feel so inclined to "grind".

[Toothless Jack]

Out of topic:

 

Maybe take some shallow ports and deep ports and make them something in between for ships from Niagaras up to trincomalees?

Would be more to do for mid class ships. ( I mean PB's )

 

Also i have noticed many players are coming from PvP2 to PvP1. So i hope very soon PvP1 will be FULL again.

Sorry PvP2.. didn't worked out. Join us id say.

Edited March 21, 2016 by Toothless Jack

[Ruthless4u]

Where are people finding all these horrible ganks ? .

Not to be taken the wrong way, but iirc your on a primarily low population server, most complaints about ganks come from pvp1 players who are on a peak times.

[chappy]

its an open  pvp game. If there are rules that restrict pvp because people dont like losing then its no longer an open pvp game.

Positioning, local superiority, the element of surprise, these are all fully valid and critical considerations in tactics.

It  may come as a surprise to some but generally speaking a good tactician will hit the enemy at their weakest point, time or morale. To remove or restrict this ability is to dumb the game down to red v blue.

[Neptune]

Once again ganks are historic so keep them over fun gameplay. That's fine, but personally I don't see the fun in fighting ganks because they were historic. I've been getting more decent PvP with the timers, but the majority are still ganks. It gets boring when this is all the gameplay is. The only fun thing NA has is the PvP but because ganks were historic we keep them. People want to have fun PvP but they can't find many good fights so they just stop playing because AI farming is boring. That's about the point where I'm pushed too aswell and I can't blame the others. I Love this game, I've spent 2k hours on it BECAUSE I love fighting fun PvP battles, not boring PvPs that you have no chance in.

 

Sure ganking is historic, but this is a game, we want to have fun. That's why we play the games, to have fun, and If ganking is ruining the fun and making the game boring I don't see how keeping it is doing any good. I guess It's better to have a game filled with gankers than people who want fun PvPs. Those who don't like zerg ganks because they are boring (and that's what 90% of PvP Is) may as well buzz off and stop trying I guess. Watching paint dry is just as fun as fighting those awesome fun ganks. Yeah ganking or being ganked is only fun once in awhile, not when it's every freaking battle.

 

Why bother to try make PvP fun when you can have those awesome, fun, amazing challenging 20v4 ganks that some players are so in love with. Hey they are historical, they really happened! This will make the game so fun and players will love fighting those big pesky ganks because they were historic and part of age of sail. Hey if players want to quit because every fight they found was a huge gank then they don't know what fun is because ganking is historic and was a part of age of sail & that makes it fun.   

 

The players who don't want every fight to be a chase or a gank, I salute you.

 

90% of PvP Consists of 4 things right now.

 

-Running

-Chasing

-Ganking

-Being Ganked

 

Things 90% of PvP Is Lacking

 

- Challenging Fights

- Entertaining Fights

- Skilled Fights

 

Yeah ok I could keep going on here, The PvP Was once amazing on this game, not so much anymore. I Never thought this would happen to PvP. Makes me sad.

 

All because the great ganks were part of the age of sail.

Edited March 22, 2016 by Acadian

[Toothless Jack]

Once again ganks are historic so keep them over fun gameplay. That's fine, but personally I don't see the fun in fighting ganks because they were historic. I've been getting more decent PvP with the timers, but the majority are still ganks. It gets boring when this is all the gameplay is. The only fun thing NA has is the PvP but because ganks were historic we keep them. People want to have fun PvP but they can't find many good fights so they just stop playing because AI farming is boring. That's about the point where I'm pushed too aswell and I can't blame the others. I Love this game, I've spent 2k hours on it BECAUSE I love fighting fun PvP battles, not boring PvPs that you have no chance in.

 

Sure ganking is historic, but this is a game, we want to have fun. That's why we play the games, to have fun, and If ganking is ruining the fun and making the game boring I don't see how keeping it is doing any good. I guess It's better to have a game filled with gankers than people who want fun PvPs. Those who don't like zerg ganks because they are boring (and that's what 90% of PvP Is) may as well buzz off and stop trying I guess. Watching paint dry is just as fun as fighting those awesome fun ganks. Yeah ganking or being ganked is only fun once in awhile, not when it's every freaking battle.

 

Why bother to try make PvP fun when you can have those awesome, fun, amazing challenging 20v4 ganks that some players are so in love with. Hey they are historical, they really happened! This will make the game so fun and players will love fighting those big pesky ganks because they were historic. Hey if players quit because every fight they found was a huge gank then they don't know what fun is because ganking is historic!   

Would you think this could change it ?

http://forum.game-labs.net/index.php?/topic/12368-br-xp-gold-pvp/

[victor]

Naval Action is an experience trying to show certain elements of age of sail combat and conquest the way the captain of that time saw them (with certain simplifications). This experience might not be exciting to some and its ok. 

 

 

Ok, that clarifies all. I'm not very happy about your statement, but at least now it's clear what we should (not) expect from this game.