Are 3rd rates too disposable?

[Hugo van Grojt]

Would it make a difference to have the captured 3rd rates automatic basic ships with only one usable upgrade slot?

 

That way, they COULD still be used en masse for PBs even by unlucky/lower number nations but crafted ships would retain a significant advantage in an even numbers fight crafted vs. captured ships?

 

I am personally not a fan of the "We have some port battles coming up, refill your stockpile of 3rd rates in outpost x really quick" mechanic.

 

Agree - this is not a politics thread but a thread about game mechanics that would benefit  the game as a whole.

 

Cheers, Hugo (He who just crafted his first Trincomalee)

[Quarios]

I made a poll on exact this topic 1-2 weeks ago. Most of the players wanted to keep their easy accesible 3rd rates, even tho its bad for the game imho.

[Slamz]

Would it make a difference to have the captured 3rd rates automatic basic ships with only one usable upgrade slot?

 

Another idea might be to just make upgrades better, across the board.

 

Right now upgrades aren't that great, so sailing a 1 durability ship with no upgrades isn't that big of a deal. Maybe if upgrades were better, people would be warier of going out in a ship that doesn't have good upgrades and the durability to hold onto them.

[Aetrion]

This game is more and more turning into a massive display of hypocrisy from elitists who demand special rules like ships having reduced durability or being uncapturable when it serves to preserve the advantage of grinders and huge clans, but will instantly invoke "no, it's a sandbox, no special rules" when anything is suggested to make the game more palatable for a wider audience.

 

I mean the devs keep saying they don't want to be a game that drives away scores of people by giving an insurmountable advantage to organized clans full of people who play all day long, but let alone the fact that people who want that sort of thing are concentrating in this forum proves that that is exactly what they have, and the game's community has already begun to shrink down to a single type of player.

 

Also I can only reiterate once again that the game cannot ever achieve cost factor balance of different ship types as long as the costs are built into a system that you can circumvent by grinding and stockpiling. It simply is not possible. This isn't an RTS where all the ships a faction has are bought from the same pool of money, every unit has it's own pool of money, and you guys ignorantly believe that if you just make that pool hard enough to fill you'll get people to enjoy playing as zerglings.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Aetrion

[Dalriaden]

Plenty of demand for bellonas and up.

[Ian2492]

Well they did remove the Pavels from AI because there was too many around, can't see why 3rd rates are much better.

On one hand you say i'm an elitist that want that so it advantages me because i'm in a clan that actually bothered to figure out that crafting is important, on the other hand i can just as much say other clans don't want that mechanics because they're too lazy to craft.

It's not about a mechanic advantaging me or the next guy, it's about making the game better.

[Aetrion]

On one hand you say i'm an elitist that want that so it advantages me because i'm in a clan that actually bothered to figure out that crafting is important, on the other hand i can just as much say other clans don't want that mechanics because they're too lazy to craft.

It's not about a mechanic advantaging me or the next guy, it's about making the game better.

 

If clans poured their expertise and dedication into building coastal defenses, harbor monitors, trans Atlantic shipments and other things like that that form the basis of global strategic gameplay rather than insisting that they should simply be the only ones who get good ships nobody would be complaining.

 

The problem is that you don't want all the crafting to specifically restrict the elements of the game that are there for you and require that element of attrition, you want the crafting to restrict the element of the game that forms the basis of every possible form of gameplay this game can have, and by that create a game that is exclusive to only your style of play.

 

Usually in MMOs that do clan wars you have your clanwar system built in somewhere at the high end and the dedication needed to participate is for doing stuff like building fortresses. It doesn't mess up the more casual play, nor does it restrict other people from making characters that are equally powerful so that the fights stay skill based. In this game the clanwar stuff kicks in right on the ground level of how powerful you are allowed to be in a fight and by that squashes every other form of gameplay and kills the skill element. 

Edited March 7, 2016 by Aetrion

[Slamz]

This game is more and more turning into a massive display of hypocrisy from elitists who demand special rules like ships having reduced durability or being uncapturable when it serves to preserve the advantage of grinders and huge clans, 

 

At the same time, we can't have 3rd rate grinders bragging about how easy it is to cap 3rd rates and claiming it literally doesn't matter if you sink theirs because they will just cap a new one in 10 minutes.

 

I don't mind 3rd rates being out there, but it's a bit too easy and too good right now.

[Aetrion]

At the same time, we can't have 3rd rate grinders bragging about how easy it is to cap 3rd rates and claiming it literally doesn't matter if you sink theirs because they will just cap a new one in 10 minutes.

 

I don't mind 3rd rates being out there, but it's a bit too easy and too good right now.

 

I agree, but the problem will never be solved by restricting ships by money and crafting. They need to be restricted by a system that works the same for everyone, regardless of how much they play and how huge of a clan they have. Otherwise the people who can outgrind the curve will always cheese the system and the people who can't will always have no reason to keep playing, resulting in a shift toward the exact same problem you had before, just with fewer overall players. 

 

For example, having crew be more like work-hours so that if you lose a huge ship it can take a long time till you have enough people again to crew another one would make spamming third rates and treating them carelessly impossible even if everyone had an infinite number of them.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Aetrion

[Hugo van Grojt]

The crew thingy might actually work as well, Aetrion

[Mr. Starbuck]

I'd second that proposition. In parts.

 

1. give the biggest ships into AI hands, including Trincomalee again
2. remove player's ability to cap ships larger than Frigates as in: can not use them after battle
3. give players a reasonable XP+money boost for capping ships bigger than Frigs to compensate this

 

economy will profit from it. Ship losses will be more severe, crafting more useful and rewarding. There really shouldn't be masses of ships larger than Frigates everywhere. 

 

Everything above a Frigate should be a treasured commodity.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Mr. Starbuck

[victor]

oh please remove those 3rd rate npcs because right now it s too easy to capture them, all even weakest nations who have 1 port can capture 3rd rate and fight in port battle, please remove all those so only the biggest nations who have the largest number of ports that give tones of materiels are able to craft them so they can use them to conquer more ports.

This is so funny how some people try to change the game mechanics when they start to lose

 

Actually, it is even funnier when they try to change game mechanics while they're winning, just to win even more.

Edited March 7, 2016 by victor

[The Spud]

I just feel that there is something not completely right with PB and that they only seem to field 3rd rates right now. On the other hand, day after day more people are able to sail a 3rd rate, and more and more people will be after a 3rd rate. So capping AI 3rd rates will be harder, as they will all be "harvested" (unless the game spawns a new 3rd rate whenever an AI 3rd ate is destroyed or capped).

 

These disposable 3rd rates might become a bit rare, and crafted ones will take their places. Haven't sailed 3rd rates or above, but I imagine if a victory or a santissima is an extreme nightmare to work efficiently on a PB, they might just resolve to live oak 3rd rates in the end. Making a PB a tad less boring?

 

We might just need a bit of variëty in the 3rd rate and above, some with more fire power, some with more armour. Just to make it a bit more tactical.

 

Otherwise I don't want things nerfed or changed much, It just all seems a bit dull right now.

[Mr. Starbuck]

Could you please stop, for the love of god!, to turn every thread that may also concern PvP into a dirty political slugfest?

Edited March 7, 2016 by Mr. Starbuck

[Azzak]

My subjective opinion on this matter :

Don't make AI 3rd rates spawn and make them RARE.  Because they are and should be... rare and costly to maintain !

But if you encounter them, cap as much as you want !

 

Issue settled.

 

IF NOT

Then make them basic. That's the minimum we can ask. Ok, take your disposable battleship, but they'll suck. A lot.

 

 

Frigates shouldn't be totally useless in port battles ; just because you can cap 3rd rates at will and use them as disposable ships. 

When you take your 3rd rate (or any ship of the line) it must feel like you're committing yourself to high risks for a high-reward mission. It's a valuable ship that you can not afford to lose too many times. 

Or if you take your disposable ship, then you know you're likely to increase chances of losing but eh, no risk no reward...

 

Status-quo is not good right now for balance and fun.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Azzak

[Hethwill]

Make AI fleets of 3rd rates proper unique fleets with big numbers of ships of the line, frigates and support brigs and corvettes, 25 ships in total.

Also make them rare, 1 fleet per capital including regionals. This means a big nation will spawn more fleets that may roam to enemy territory. Small nations will spawn less. Should balance things out.

[Ratline]

Its just co-incidence that the topic is brought up by a Brit in a Clan with an extensive crafting base and supported by other members of that clan.

 

Might give you an easier time against the Danes and Pirates, thats for sure.

 

Sure, probably some truth to that. Then again, if the Danes were not exploiting the use of 3rds as disposable ships to surrender and get their more valuable craft out of a lost battle risk free maybe they wouldn't be making this thread.

[Ian2492]

I just feel that there is something not completely right with PB and that they only seem to field 3rd rates right now. On the other hand, day after day more people are able to sail a 3rd rate, and more and more people will be after a 3rd rate. So capping AI 3rd rates will be harder, as they will all be "harvested" (unless the game spawns a new 3rd rate whenever an AI 3rd ate is destroyed or capped).

 

 

Fleets respawn quickly after they're killed. We usually farm a town where the fleet spawns and we kill it there, then it spawns again in our face.

 

Actually, it is even funnier when they try to change game mechanics while they're winning, just to win even more.

 

Sure, probably some truth to that. Then again, if the Danes were not exploiting the use of 3rds as disposable ships to surrender and get their more valuable craft out of a lost battle risk free maybe they wouldn't be making this thread.

 

This is essentially called an Ad-hominem argument, you can't refute the position of the person so you try to discredit the person or insult him so you think you ''won'' an argument.

In the end I just want to see less SOLs all around and more frigates.

People say that it would advantage the bigger nations, are you saying there should be AI Pavels, Santis and Victories for capture to cater to the poor smaller nations? Yes? No? Why is the line drawn at the 3rd? Why decide to make this ship common as brown shit but the bellonas rare? Why not draw the line elsewhere where the carribeans aren't populated almost entirely with huge costy battleships?

 

 

Unless I'm talking in national news section, i'm not talking as a british captain, i'm talking as a player of the game that wants the best game.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Ian2492

[Flob]

Coming from a small clan, that's a ridiculous suggestion, we don't have the crafters available and certainly can't afford to pay the ridiculous prices being charged. The way it is, allows us to be competitive and allows us to actually participate in game content. Not everyone wants to be part of a zerg guild

[thp]

I will try to give a simple exemple that s very easy to understand :

Right now it s a democratic process,  everyone are fighting with almost equal weapons, everyone can have a sword even if it s just a rusty sword, now you want to remove it,makes  only the elite people can use a sword, the commun people will fight with a knife, what will you think it will happen when someone using a knife fighting against someone using a sword ?  Actually that s how it works in real life during the Dak Age, only the elite class like knights can have a sword, the commun payseant arent allowed to use it.

But this is a game, do we really want that kind of elitism in the game ? For some people like you who probably think it s the right way by trying to favour the few elite players. By my experience of playing some games from the past, the games that favour the elite( by by Pay-to-Win or by any other ways), at the end the commun players just all leave because there s no way and no fun to play with a huge disadvantage that gives zero chance to win , everyone know the result of the battle even before the first engagement. In a while only a few elite people will stay but at the very end they will also all leave because it will be boring for them too.

[Ian2492]

You don't require that much clan backing to craft effectively. A player I know if crafting SOLs, and he got there on his own with little backing from other players.

Why is the line drawn at 3rd rates? Can someone explain that? Why not let everyone capture victories then? Why could we capture pavels before but it got removed, but removing 3rds would be favoring the elitists?

Right now port battles are a joke, any fleet can field 25 captured third rates and they don't give a shit about losing them.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Ian2492

[Quineloe]

Any ship that can be captured should give 5 durability when crafted. I don't see why this rule has an exception on third rates.

if crafted third rates had 5 dura it would also be a whole lot easier for a clan to maintain them.

Edited March 8, 2016 by Quineloe

[Hethwill]

You have a fair point there Quineloe.

 

Unless there is a Conquest bundle of mechanics that make Ships of the Line be properly used as Ships of the Line - meaning a massive chunk of a Nation's treasury to build and maintain - the reduced durabilities fill in the gap of "usable when it really matters".

 

On the other hand, as I posted above, getting any 3rd and 4th rates is absurd and has no link whatsoever ( so far! ) to the true power ( amount of ports ) of a nation.

[Aetrion]

All ships should have the same durability when crafted. Making a ship that's already 20 times more expensive than smaller ships have less durability so that it costs even more to maintain is just a stupid kneejerk fix to "I don't want everyone to have 1st rates, only the cheesiest grinders in the game should have the best stuff!".

[Quineloe]

You have a fair point there Quineloe.

 

Unless there is a Conquest bundle of mechanics that make Ships of the Line be properly used as Ships of the Line - meaning a massive chunk of a Nation's treasury to build and maintain - the reduced durabilities fill in the gap of "usable when it really matters".

 

On the other hand, as I posted above, getting any 3rd and 4th rates is absurd and has no link whatsoever ( so far! ) to the true power ( amount of ports ) of a nation.

As long as third rates are required for port battles the ability to field them needs to come very easily. Otherwise any nation that can't field them might as well yield to every deep water port battle attack.